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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 08:15 am
@Foxfyre,
And this that Dr. Sowell wrote five years ago:
Quote:
War on Poverty Revisited
by Thomas Sowell
(August 17, 2004)

August 20th marks the 40th anniversary of one of the major turning points in American social history. That was the date on which President Lyndon Johnson signed legislation creating his "War on Poverty" program in 1964.

Never had there been such a comprehensive program to tackle poverty at its roots, to offer more opportunities to those starting out in life, to rehabilitate those who had fallen by the wayside, and to make dependent people self-supporting. Its intentions were the best. But we know what road is paved with good intentions.

The War on Poverty represented the crowning triumph of the liberal vision of society -- and of government programs as the solution to social problems. The disastrous consequences that followed have made the word "liberal" so much of a political liability that today even candidates with long left-wing track records have evaded or denied that designation.

In the liberal vision, slums bred crime. But brand-new government housing projects almost immediately became new centers of crime and quickly degenerated into new slums. Many of these projects later had to be demolished. Unfortunately, the assumptions behind those projects were not demolished, but live on in other disastrous programs, such as Section 8 housing.

Rates of teenage pregnancy and venereal disease had been going down for years before the new 1960s attitudes toward sex spread rapidly through the schools, helped by War on Poverty money. These downward trends suddenly reversed and skyrocketed.

The murder rate had also been going down, for decades, and in 1960 was just under half of what it had been in 1934. Then the new 1960s policies toward curing the "root causes" of crime and creating new "rights" for criminals began. Rates of violent crime, including murder, skyrocketed.

The black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and discrimination, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state that subsidized unwed pregnancy and changed welfare from an emergency rescue to a way of life.

Government social programs such as the War on Poverty were considered a way to reduce urban riots. Such programs increased sharply during the 1960s. So did urban riots. Later, during the Reagan administration, which was denounced for not promoting social programs, there were far fewer urban riots.

Neither the media nor most of our educational institutions question the assumptions behind the War on Poverty. Even conservatives often attribute much of the progress that has been made by lower-income people to these programs.

For example, the usually insightful quarterly magazine City Journal says in its current issue: "Beginning in the mid-sixties, the condition of most black Americans improved markedly."

That is completely false and misleading.

The economic rise of blacks began decades earlier, before any of the legislation and policies that are credited with producing that rise. The continuation of the rise of blacks out of poverty did not -- repeat, did not -- accelerate during the 1960s.

The poverty rate among black families fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent in 1960, during an era of virtually no major civil rights legislation or anti-poverty programs. It dropped another 17 percentage points during the decade of the 1960s and one percentage point during the 1970s, but this continuation of the previous trend was neither unprecedented nor something to be arbitrarily attributed to the programs like the War on Poverty.

In various skilled trades, the incomes of blacks relative to whites more than doubled between 1936 and 1959 -- that is, before the magic 1960s decade when supposedly all progress began. The rise of blacks in professional and other high-level occupations was greater in the five years preceding the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than in the five years afterwards.

While some good things did come out of the 1960s, as out of many other decades, so did major social disasters that continue to plague us today. Many of those disasters began quite clearly during the 1960s.

But what are mere facts compared to a heady vision? Liberal assumptions -- "two Americas," for example -- are being recycled this election year, even by candidates who evade the "liberal" label.
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3864
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 11:11 am
http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/graph.jpg
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 11:52 am
Foxfyre, I've been thinking more about your statement: "To propose political violence for their leader without convincing them of the necessity of that makes us the villains."

I think it clear that what President Obama is doing is true "political violence"--a violence that is unlawful and must be lawfully terminated before it destroys our Constitutional Republic.

However, I agree that those unconvinced of Obama's "political violence" will consider those of us who advocate stopping it by impeaching Obama will consider us "the villains." Isn't that usually the case. The advocates of "political violence" accuse those trying to stop it of being "the villains?"

Look at how you are repeatedly slandered on this thread for merely advocating classical liberalism, or as we both now call it, advocating MACean principles. And they slander you for telling them to stop slandering you. You are already a villain in their eyes for simply disagreeing with them. Their slanders of you are designed to intimidate you into silence, or at least into avoiding the corrective action actually required to end Obama's "political violence."

Therefore, again I ask:

HOW SHALL WE SAVE OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC?

The solution is not to repeatedly sound alarms and repeatedly give the reasons for those alarms. The solution is to impeach President Obama. He is continually transferring wealth from those who lawfully earned it to those who have not earned it.

Nowhere in the Constitution"not even in Article I. Section 8.--has the President, the Congress, or the Judiciary been granted the power to make such wealth transfers. Any of them who make those transfers violate the “supreme law of the land,” and their “oath or affirmation to support this Constitution”"Article VI. They are exercising “the powers not delegated to the United States” and are thereby violating the Constitution"Amendment X. They are committing treason against the United States by “adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort”"Article III. Section 3.

We have to convince those in the House of Representatives, who do not violate their oaths to support the Constitution, to make a motion to impeach President Obama. Failure--or excessive delay--to take this necessary first step will guarantee the transformation of our country from a Constitutional Republic to a dictatorship.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 11:55 am
@Lightwizard,
Cyclo, Can you find a chart (equivalent chart by years) to show GDP growth?

Conservatives keep telling us that the wealthy are the ones who help our economy grow, and that's the reason we should keep their taxes low. Otherwise, taxes only shift the wealth from the rich to the poor. I question that premise.

What I see is that lower tax rates for the rich transfers government debt onto our children and grandchildren while they reap riches, not because they earn what they deserve, but because they perform badly for the economy as a whole through greed and stupidity.

0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 11:58 am
@Lightwizard,
lighwizard :

i'll be interested to see what the comments ( IF ANY ) will be re. your chart .
it'll probably be declared "statistical nonsense" - or "unamerican" - or "socialist" .
hbg
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:04 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:

lighwizard :

i'll be interested to see what the comments ( IF ANY ) will be re. your chart .
it'll probably be declared "statistical nonsense" - or "unamerican" - or "socialist" .
hbg



What is to comment? The statistics are what they are, but you know how the old sayings go--figures lie and liars figure or there are lies, damn lies, and statistics and none of those are necessarily pertinent to that chart. What is pertinent is what is the net effect of raising or lowering tax rates, imposing taxes, reducing or eliminating taxes? Who benefits the most? Who benefits the least? What behavior is prompted by changes in taxation and what are the ramifications of that behavior?

In my opinion THAT is what we need to look at. Not the top marginal tax rates. I have very good reasons for believing it unwise to raise taxes on anybody when we're in a deep recession and teetering on the edge of depression. Just as the war on poverty has produced unintended negative consequences, so can tax policy produce unintended negative consequences.

Does that make me irrationally partisan or a rightwing looney? Is it unreasonable to look at cause and effect of tax policy or the programs we propose? Are 'good intentions' or 'motive' sufficient for anybody? Or is it time to really look for what produces the best results?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:14 pm
@ican711nm,
Ican, I'm not ignoring your post, but the themes you present are quite complex and really big--I want to think it through more thoughtfully before I respond. It is a subject that is important, and kneejerk probably is not the best way to approach it. Smile
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
fox wrote :

Quote:
...but you know how the old sayings go--figures lie and liars figure or there are lies, damn lies, and statistics ...


so why not raise the top tax rates and see what happens . if someonne shows stats claiming that raising the top rates has a negative effect , one could easily say : "...but you know how the old sayings go--figures lie and liars figure or there are lies, damn lies, and statistics ... ' . <GRIN>
i doubt that would be very acceptable , would it ?
in the end it usually is a matter of trial and error to find the right balance imo - no stats provided , though .
take care !
hbg

sort of like going to the doctor with an ailment - one won't always find the right med's immediately . you know the "current" advice not give cold and cough med's to small children , but TV and magazines are full of ads and the shelves are stocked to overflowing - some parents must be buying the vile tasting stuff .

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:24 pm
@ican711nm,
I strongly and passionately recommend everyone read:
Liberty Versus the Tyranny of Socialism, Controversial Essays, by WALTER E. WILLIAMS.

Here I've transcribed the first two paragraphs in his Preface:

Quote:

This book contains a selected collection of newspaper columns I have written over the past few years. Writing a weekly column for nearly thirty years is one of the loves of my life and the fruition of an admonition given to me by Professor Armen Alchian, one of my tenacious mentors during my graduate years at UCLA, who told me that the true test of whether one knows his subjecr comes when he can explain it to someone who knows nothing about it. If there is one glaring dereliction of economists, it is making our subject accessible to the ordinary person. The most important thing to be said about economics is that economics, more than anything else, is a way of thinking. As such, the tools of economics can be applied in areas not commonly thought to be in the realm of economics, such as racial discrimination, national defense, and marriage.

The reader should be aware of a bias that underlies much of what I write. That bias is an unyielding defense of personal liberty that is a necessary consequence of the initial premise I make about humans. That initial premise that is each of us owns himself. Stated another way: I am my property and you are yours. The institution of private property is the right held by the owner of property to keep, acquire, dispose, and exclude from use. The premise of self-ownership determines what human acts are moral or immoral and consistent with that premise. For example, rape, murder, slavery, fraud, and theft are immoral because they violate private property.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:38 pm
@ican711nm,
I've read some dozen sites so far (google books offers quite a few sites).

I must admit that I stopped on page 26:

http://i41.tinypic.com/wrako7.jpg

I don't take someone serious who minimises the the cruelety and horrors of what the Nazis did.
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:39 pm
@hamburger,
The most telling is the tax rate to the very wealthy at in the mid to late 80's which coincides with the stock market crash and subsequent recession too many have forgotten. You're only as bad off as the last recession. We've been plunging into this one for three years. Give the rich too much money to play with and they don't produce more jobs, higher wages nor increase the standard of living for the vanishing middle class -- they gamble with it in presumably strong investments to just plain foolish ones, buy seven houses they don't really need (not necessary to mention any names), buy another yacht, aiming at having one in every major port they want to visit from time to time for business or pleasure, buy a thirteenth car they don't need (not necessary to mention any names), buy another documented pet instead of saving one, etc, etc, etc. How many TV's or toasters can they buy which all cost the same and boost the economy? They may want three or four big screens in each home, including the bathroom, but really only one toaster. In other words, in food, clothing and durable goods, they do not help the economy. The middle class does. Horrors -- give more money to the middle class? What are they thinking?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:40 pm
SUMMING UP CONTENT OF LINKS I PREVIOUSLY POSTED

CARTER
Unemployment increased from 7.1% in 1977, to 7.6% in 1981.
Income tax rates constant 14% min to 70% max in 1977 thru 1981.
Revenues increased from 355,559 million in 1977, to 599,272 million in 1981.
GDP increased from 1,825.3 billion in 1976, to 2,789.5 billion in 1980.

REAGAN
Unemployment decreased from 9.7% in 1982, to 5.6% in 1990.
Income tax rates decreased from 12% min and 50% max in 1982, to 15% min and 33% max in 1990.
Revenues increased from 617,766 million in 1982, to 1,032,094 million in 1990.
GDP increased from 2,789.5 billion in 1980, to 5,103.8 billion in 1988.

BUSH 43
Unemployment increased from 4.7% in 2001 to 6.0% in 2003.
Unemployment decreased from 6.0% in 2003, to 4.6% in 2007.
Unemployment increased from 4.6% in 2007 to 7.2% in 2008.

Income tax rates decreased from 15% min and 39.1% max in 2001, to 10% min and 35% max in 2006, 2007, and 2008.

Revenues increased from 1.991,426 million in 2001, to 2,662,474 million in 2008.

GDP increased from 10,128.0 billion in 2000 to 14,208.7 billion in 2008.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:43 pm
@hamburger,
Yeah, right, the government especially during Reagan, Bush 1 & 2 are purposefully reporting false figures and somehow getting away with it so that appears the rich aren't getting that much of a break. What kind of looney logic is that? Answer: someone who has been deluded by their wealthy boss, who believe their financial status is better when the very wealthy are given a lot or money over and above what is needed to live a very prosperous life, or any number of denials where they need a twelve step program to get them off of their addiction to rich people.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:47 pm
Bureau of Economic Analysis
National Income and Product Accounts Table
Table 1.1.5. Gross Domestic Product
[Billions of dollars]
Today is: 2/9/2009 Last Revised on January 30, 2009 Next Release Date February 27, 2009
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TablePrint.asp?FirstYear=1965&LastYear=2008&Freq=Year&SelectedTable=5&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&MaxValue=14412.8&MaxChars=8&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Legal=&Land=
1976 " 1,825.3 ---------
1977 -- 2,030.9
1978 -- 2,294.7
1979 -- 2,563.3
1980 -- 2,789.5 -- +52.8
1981 "- 3,128.4
1982 "- 3,255.0
1983 "- 3,536.7
1984 "- 3,933.2 -- +41.0
1985 "- 4,220.3
1986 "- 4,462.8
1987 "- 4,739.5
1988 "- 5,103.8 -- +29.8
1989 "- 5,484.4
1990 "- 5,803.1
1991 "- 5,995.9
1992 "- 6,337.7 -- +24.2
1993 "- 6,657.4
1994 "- 7,072.2
1995 "- 7,397.7
1996 "- 7,816.9 -- +23.3
1997 "- 8,304.3
1998 "- 8,747.0
1999 "- 9,268.4
2000 "- 9,817.0 " +12.8
2001 "- 10,128.0
2002 "- 10,469.6
2003 "- 10,960.8
2004 "- 11,685.9 -- +19.0
2005 "- 12,421.9
2006 "- 13,178.4 -- +12.8(over 2 years)
2007 "- 13,807.5
2008 "- 14,208.7 -- +21.6(over 4 years)

0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 12:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That's addressing Mao and Stalin specifically in trying to establish that any social programs are communism and leading to a dictator who will start killing their own citizens for opposing their politics. That's different than calling them soldiers and getting rid of them in foreign wars we have no business fighting.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I've read some dozen sites so far (google books offers quite a few sites).

I must admit that I stopped on page 26:

http://i41.tinypic.com/wrako7.jpg

I don't take someone serious who minimises the the cruelety and horrors of what the Nazis did.


Saying that the policies ofLenin, Stalin et al were as cruel and inhumane and even more far reaching and resulted in more suffering and death than even those of Hitler IS NOT minimizing the cruelty and horrors of what the Nazis did. In fact it is using one of the most graphic examples one could think of as comparison for something horrible. It does require reading Walter Williams with an open mind and understanding what he is saying to understand that.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:13 pm
@hamburger,
hamburger wrote:

fox wrote :

Quote:
...but you know how the old sayings go--figures lie and liars figure or there are lies, damn lies, and statistics ...


so why not raise the top tax rates and see what happens . if someonne shows stats claiming that raising the top rates has a negative effect , one could easily say : "...but you know how the old sayings go--figures lie and liars figure or there are lies, damn lies, and statistics ... ' . <GRIN>
i doubt that would be very acceptable , would it ?
in the end it usually is a matter of trial and error to find the right balance imo - no stats provided , though .
take care !
hbg

sort of like going to the doctor with an ailment - one won't always find the right med's immediately . you know the "current" advice not give cold and cough med's to small children , but TV and magazines are full of ads and the shelves are stocked to overflowing - some parents must be buying the vile tasting stuff .




You don't raise taxes in a recession because it will invariably deepen the recessions and/or slow the recovery from the recession. You don't increase the top marginal rates after it has been clearly demonstrated that the rich modify their behavior in a way that BENEFITS the national treasury when you modify the tax consequences for them to do so.

The fact remains that under a capitalistic free society, it is those very rich who take the risks, create jobs, fund R&D, provide monies for h0spital wings, universities, scholarship funds, and underwrite the arts.

You simply cannot punish the rich for their success without harming the poor that you intend to help.
Lightwizard
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
Pale in comparison is not comparing equals. Duh.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Well, according to the Conservative worldview, it's never a good time to raise taxes on the rich. This is clearly not motivated by logic but instead by ideology.

The idea that the poor and middle class take no risks is a little ridiculous. This artificial distinction, this Randian duality in which people are either good Producers or lazy Consumers, is a poisonous worldview and does not reflect reality in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 01:29 pm
"Conservatism" is doomed by its intimate association with the lunatic fringe--the rabid dogs of the movement. It is doomed because its proponents are polarizing and inflexible. The word "conservatism" paints pictures of gay bashers, bible-thumping bigots, incurious red-necks waving guns, hate-mongers, war-mongers, and those who foam at the mouth and scream "kill him" at Palin Rallies. The word "conservative" paints a picture of a hypocrite who says one thing, but does the opposite.

The "conservative" attack on big spending is meaningless because, under the leadership of the politicians that conservatives put in office, our national debt grew in eight years from 5 trillion to over 10 trillion. The conservatives supported candidates who syphoned billions and billions of dollars from our public purse to pay no-bid contracts. The conservatives supported candidates that deregulated our economy that allowed the greed of the few to destroy all of us. The conservatives supported candidates that pursued a unilateral "war on terror" that led to less national security rather than more national security. It is their fault that our reputation as a world leader has been tarnished.

And still, those who claim to be "conservative" remain unapologetic about the harm they have inflicted on society as a whole and continue to beat their drum louder than ever. They chastise anyone and everyone who suggests that conservative ideology needs to be re-examined, be less hypocritical, and be altered to address the needs of a changing and diverse society.

Because the Republican Party caters to this bunch of foam-at-the-mouth beaters of a diseased drum as their "core constituency," the party is also doomed. The hope of the party is not pit-bull Sarah Palin or anyone of her ilk in 2012. The trickle-down economic ideology of the Reagan era is no longer productive. The Republican Party needs to cast off the rabid dogs and cater to a new core of voters who do not focus on controlling the behavior of adults in their own bedrooms and keeping the "aristocracy" in power, but rather focus on rebuilding this country from the ground up.
 

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