55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:16 pm
I hope that O can manage to transfer wealth. We live in a plutocracy in which a tiny number of people control a hugely disproportionate amount of income and wealth. Moreover, this is getting worse by the day. We are becoming a nation similar to those in Latin America, where a few families control everything. This is bound to bring about adverse consequences. It is what brought in communism in Russia, Chavez in Venezuela, Castro in Cuba, etc.

In the USA, the top 29,000 in income make more than the bottom 96 M combined. The top one percent make more than 25% of all income. The average top corporation CEO makes more than 1,000 times the salary of the average employee in his or her company. Etc.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:36 pm
@Advocate,
That's been obvious for more than a decade now, and it's gotten worse under Bush. Isn't it somewhat surprising that conservatives keep telling us that higher taxation for the rich is shifting their wealth to the poor while the wealthy continue to take over a bigger piece of the pie - not because they've been doing a good job, but because they've been getting rich at the expense of everybody else.

Enron, Worldcom, and some of those other companies should have been the red flag; their CEOs kept telling their employees and the market that their company was healthy and their potential great. Many at those companies whose employees owned company stock worth millions lost everything.

Capitalism failed because our government failed to take action when they should have; Mae, Mac, the banks and finance companies were granting loans to people who couldn't meet the minimum salary requirement to buy a home, and they continued to encourage more of it, and they were also encouraging the people to keep spending more when people should have been putting money away for that rainy day.

I remember George Bush bragging that more Americans owned homes during his tenure than any time in our country's history. DUH!

Our government now under the democrats are now hell-bent on spending more money in trying to save auto companies at a time when nobody's job is secure, and hundreds of thousand lose their jobs almost every week.

Where is their brains? Job creation should be their number one issue that needs to be addressed; not more social programs at a time when income tax revenues continue its downward slide.



ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:45 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclop, you are merely one of a few hundred who over my lifetime has declared I cannot achieve what I want to achieve. Sometimes they were wrong and sometimes they were right. However, in each case I determined myself whether I would succeed or fail.

Win some, lose some! Big deal! The ones I've won more than make up for the ones I've lost.

For your sake and the sake of every other American, I better succeed this time too.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:52 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Cyclop, you are merely one of a few hundred who over my lifetime has declared I cannot achieve what I want to achieve. Sometimes they were wrong and sometimes they were right. However, in each case I determined myself whether I would succeed or fail.

Win some, lose some! Big deal! The ones I've won more than make up for the ones I've lost.

For your sake and the sake of every other American, I better succeed this time too.


Why don't you let others decide for themselves whether or not you'd 'better' succeed...

I personally think your ideas for the way things should be done are poorly thought out and mostly ill-conceived ways to promote greed. So the concept that I would be better served by an impeachment of the current government and the imposition of one which follows your ideals is a little farcical.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 05:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
That's been obvious for more than a decade now, and it's gotten worse under Bush. Isn't it somewhat surprising that conservatives keep telling us that higher taxation for the rich is shifting their wealth to the poor while the wealthy continue to take over a bigger piece of the pie - not because they've been doing a good job, but because they've been getting rich at the expense of everybody else.

I don't know any conservatives who keep telling me: "higher taxation for the rich is shifting their wealth to the poor ..." But we conservatives are telling you that higher taxation for the rich makes more poor, because it is the rich getting richer who help many of the poor also become richer and in fact rich.

What you continually fail to admit to yourself is that "pie" is not fixed in size. In a prosperous nation, that "pie" continually expands such that even those who get smaller slices, end up with more "pie." The people who got 0.001% of the "pie" a hundred years ago, got a much smaller piece of "pie" than those who now get only 0.00001%.


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 05:11 pm
@ican711nm,
Your brain is dead; there is no such thing as unlimited growth in economics or anything else - with the exception of the clay in your brain.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 05:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo wrote:
Why don't you let others decide for themselves whether or not you'd 'better' succeed...

They will of course decide for themselves. But if too many decide wrongly, I will not succeed and they will reduce their own chances for success. It is the greed of many to unlawfully diminishing what others have or will get that diminishes what those greedy will actually get. It is the greed of many other individuals to lawfully earn more that helps all such greedy individuals lawfully earn more.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 05:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
there is no such thing as unlimited growth in economics or anything else.


Many fewer people in 1909 lived in homes they owned, than live in homes they own in 2009.

Many fewer people had their own swimming pools in 1909, than have their own swimming pools in 2009.

Many fewer people had their own automobiles in 1909, than had their own automobiles in 2009.

Many fewer people flew in airplanes in 1909, than fly in airplanes in 2009.

Many fewer people traveled internationally in 1908, than traveled internationally in 2008.

Many fewer people traveled in space in 1908, than traveled in space in 2008.

et cetera!

Sigh! If we could only transform those greedy for others to have less into more of those greedy to earn more, more of us greedy to travel in space could travel in space.

By the way, space is infinite, or close enough to infinite for government work.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 06:08 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, There are still people on this planet who lives in grass houses with dirt floors with no running water. Some people say that those natives who live on the San Blas islands still live today as they've lived centuries ago.

That "fewer people in 1909 lived in homes they owned, than live in homes they own in 2009" is an oxymoron. The majority on this planet live in "homes" that they own.

Comparison of "swimming pool ownership" between 1909 and 2009 has very little meaning to the majority who lives on this planet. Most still do not own "swimming pools."

As for the ownership of automobiles, most American auto makers are close to going bankrupt. So, what's your point?

Airplanes are a recent invention. Your comparison between 1909 and 2009 is another oxymoron. The same goes for travel and space travel. Meaningless.

There are many benefits to capitalism; it's not the wealthy who grows the economy; it's the inventors and creators of new products and services who create wealth. HP was started in a garage.



0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 07:31 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, good posts, but I would respectfully suggest you may wish to consider quit trying to talk to ci. About all he knows anymore is to make comments about our brains being dead or full of whatever. So I have resorted to clicking the thumbs down on most of his posts anymore. I have never used the "ignore" function yet, but it is tempting.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 07:43 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

I hope that O can manage to transfer wealth. We live in a plutocracy in which a tiny number of people control a hugely disproportionate amount of income and wealth. Moreover, this is getting worse by the day. We are becoming a nation similar to those in Latin America, where a few families control everything. This is bound to bring about adverse consequences. It is what brought in communism in Russia, Chavez in Venezuela, Castro in Cuba, etc.

In the USA, the top 29,000 in income make more than the bottom 96 M combined. The top one percent make more than 25% of all income. The average top corporation CEO makes more than 1,000 times the salary of the average employee in his or her company. Etc.

Wealth transfer sounds good on paper, to academics, but here are a few things you may wish to consider. Punishing the higher producers to give to lower producers does make the economy more efficient, because the lower producers are not the job producers and wealth producers in the country. The movers and shakers, the doers, you do not want to discourage them or punish them, because their productivity will suffer to the point of lowering productivity and the actual result may very well be that you end up hurting the people that you are transferring wealth to. What this does is create a significant recession or depression. I think that may be what is happening before your very eyes right now. I am in business, and know a number of people in business, and virtually all of them are discouraged with the government right now, and essentially they are not hiring, not beginning new ventures, not borrowing, basically for one big reason, they do not trust Obama and his agenda. After all, why take chances, work harder, if the government is simply going to tax you more and give it all away. And the uncertainty of knowing what policies apply to ones business decisions is a killer. So people stand pat, and do nothing, its a wait and see mode right now.

I cannot give you a percentage of effect this Obama market is having out here, but it is significant, I believe. For people to do anything business wise, they need to know the ground rules, and we don't have any. There is very little trust out here, of government.

I think the retention of a healthy middle class has a lot less to do with the tax system than other factors. Things like education, business tax rates, availability of manufacturing jobs, and cultural attitudes. A huge portion of commerce and jobs in this country are small businesses, and Obama is doing virtually nothing for them. He is instead bloating government, creating more government, and more dependents on government.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 07:52 pm
@Advocate,
Actually Advocate, I may look favorably on raising marginal tax rates on personal income, even significantly, if business taxes were lowered drastically or even eliminated.

Edit for the above post: It should read: Punishing the higher producers to give to lower producers does not make the economy more efficient....
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:27 pm
@okie,
The problem with wealth transfer is that you have to become a dictatorship with power to seize and distribute any and all wealth at will in order to transfer wealth. (So great is their class envy, I'm not sure that some here wouldn't vote for that since they haven't experienced it yet.)

Taxing the rich more won't hurt the rich. They'll pay a little more, and they'll grumble about it, but mostly they'll just change their behavior and go back to sheltering more of their income than they did when the government made it practical, even beneficial to spend or invest more of it.

Those who get hurt are the much poorer people. The rich won't reduce their lifestyle so that the people who work for them can maintain theirs. The employers cannot easily stop paying the rent or mortgage, utilities, insurance, other overhead, etc., but they can cut back on the hours and benefits of their employees, lay a few off or simply not fill vacant positions. Make it unprofitable to provide certain non essential but nice to have products and services, and those go away. In many ways, the rich will stop a lot of behavior that benefits the poor in many ways. And when the behavior of the rich is modified by taking away deductions for charitable contributions, etc., the rich won't be hurt. But the poorest of the poor likely will.

You simply cannot punish the rich for their success without hurting the poor much more.\

If our President had simply devoted ALL available resources to fixing the banks, freeing up credit, and lowering taxes on business, I think we would already see a great improvement in the economy and steady progress toward a full recovery.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, and have you noticed in the stimulus bill, virtually nothing to help small businesses, which provides more than half the jobs in this country. Is it any wonder that in the unemployment figures,about the only sector gaining or not losing is the government. So, less and less private sector tax payers have to pay for more and more government expenditures, and meanwhile, more people retire, which continues to grow Social Security and Medicare expenditures. This is a recipe for disaster.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:51 pm
I think all of us MACean old timers have the information in this essay memorized. But I hope some of the younger ones here will read it and really hear what this young woman is saying. It is important.

Quote:
Back on Uncle Sam's Plantation
2/06/2009
By STAR PARKER
Scripps Howard News Service editorials and opinion
http://www.aeispeakers.com/images/headshots/Parker-Star.jpg

Six years ago I wrote a book called "Uncle Sam's Plantation." I wrote the book to tell my own story of what I saw living inside the welfare state and my own transformation out of it.

I said in that book that indeed there are two Americas. A poor America on socialism and a wealthy America on capitalism.

I talked about government programs like Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Job Opportunities and Basic Skills Training (JOBS), Emergency Assistance to Needy Families with Children (EANF), Section 8 Housing, and Food Stamps.

A vast sea of perhaps well intentioned government programs, all initially set into motion in the 1960's, that were going to lift the nation's poor out of poverty.

A benevolent Uncle Sam welcomed mostly poor black Americans onto the government plantation. Those who accepted the invitation switched mindsets from "How do I take care of myself?" to "What do I have to do to stay on the plantation?"

Instead of solving economic problems, government welfare socialism created monstrous moral and spiritual problems. The kind of problems that are inevitable when individuals turn responsibility for their lives over to others.

The legacy of American socialism is our blighted inner cities, dysfunctional inner city schools, and broken black families.

Through God's grace, I found my way out. It was then that I understood what freedom meant and how great this country is.

I had the privilege of working on welfare reform in 1996, passed by a Republican congress and signed into law by a Democrat president. A few years after enactment, welfare roles were down fifty percent.

I thought we were on the road to moving socialism out of our poor black communities and replacing it with wealth producing American capitalism.

But, incredibly, we are going in the opposite direction.

Instead of poor America on socialism becoming more like rich American on capitalism, rich America on capitalism is becoming like poor America on socialism.

Uncle Sam has welcomed our banks onto the plantation and they have said, "Thank you, Suh."

Now, instead of thinking about what creative things need to be done to serve customers, they are thinking about what they have to tell Massah in order to get their cash.

There is some kind of irony that this is all happening under our first black president on the 200th anniversary of the birthday of Abraham Lincoln.

Worse, socialism seems to be the element of our new young president. And maybe even more troubling, our corporate executives seem happy to move onto the plantation.

In an op-ed on the opinion page of the Washington Post, Mr. Obama is clear that the goal of his trillion dollar spending plan is much more than short term economic stimulus.

"This plan is more than a prescription for short-term spending-it's a strategy for America's long-term growth and opportunity in areas such as renewable energy, health care, and education."

Perhaps more incredibly, Obama seems to think that government taking over an economy is a new idea. Or that massive growth in government can take place "with unprecedented transparency and accountability."

Yes, sir, we heard it from Jimmy Carter when he created the Department of Energy, the Synfuels Corporation, and the Department of Education.

Or how about the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 -- The War on Poverty -- which President Johnson said "...does not merely expand old programs or improve what is already being done. It charts a new course. It strikes at the causes, not just the consequences of poverty."

Trillions of dollars later, black poverty is the same. But black families are not, with triple the incidence of single parent homes and out of wedlock births.


It's not complicated. Americans can accept Barack Obama's invitation to move onto the plantation. Or they can choose personal responsibility and freedom.

Does anyone really need to think about what the choice should be?

(Star Parker is an author and president of CURE, Coalition on Urban Renewal and Education (www.urbancure.org). She can be reached at [email protected].)

(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, http://www.scrippsnews.com)
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/40710
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:59 pm
@Foxfyre,
Fantastic, great post, Foxfyre, I love that. I love it when a minority sees the light, and they no longer need to or want to see themselves as a minority. They can see themselves as themselves, a person, in their own right.

Martin Luther King was a Republican.

If only a leader would emerge to give the message life, and true hope, instead of the phony hope, there may be hope yet.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 09:21 pm
This is what I've been talking about when our government gave AIG almost 200 billion of taxpayer money. HOld onto your hats, because this one gets real ugly. I swear, our government doesn't know what it's doing.

Quote:
Who got AIG's bailout billions?
By Toni Reinhold Toni Reinhold 27 mins ago

NEW YORK (Reuters) " Where, oh where, did AIG's bailout billions go? That question may reverberate even louder through the halls of government in the week ahead now that a partial list of beneficiaries has been published.

The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday that about $50 billion of more than $173 billion that the U.S. government has poured into American International Group Inc since last fall has been paid to at least two dozen U.S. and foreign financial institutions.

The newspaper reported that some of the banks paid by AIG since the insurer started getting taxpayer funds were: Goldman Sachs Group Inc, Deutsche Bank AG, Merrill Lynch, Societe Generale, Calyon, Barclays Plc, Rabobank, Danske, HSBC, Royal Bank of Scotland, Banco Santander, Morgan Stanley, Wachovia, Bank of America, and Lloyds Banking Group.

Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs declined to comment when contacted by Reuters. Bank of America, Calyon, and Wells Fargo, which has absorbed Wachovia, could not be reached for comment.

The U.S. Federal Reserve has refused to publicize a list of AIG's derivative counterparties and what they have been paid since the bailout, riling the U.S. Senate Banking Committee.

Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Donald Kohn testified before that committee on Thursday that revealing names risked jeopardizing AIG's continuing business. Kohn said there were millions of counterparties around the globe, including pension funds and U.S. households.

He said the intention was not to protect AIG or its counterparties, but to prevent the spread of AIG's infection.

The Wall Street Journal, citing a confidential document and people familiar with the matter, reported that Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank each got about $6 billion in payments between the middle of September and December last year.

Once the world's largest insurer, AIG has been described by the United States as being too extensively intertwined with the global financial system to be allowed to fail.

The Federal Reserve first rode to AIG's rescue in September with an $85 billion credit line after losses from toxic investments, many of which were mortgage related, and collateral demands from banks, left AIG staring down bankruptcy.

Late last year, the rescue packaged was increased to $150 billion. The bailout was overhauled again a week ago to offer the insurer an additional $30 billion in equity.

AIG was first bailed out shortly after investment bank Lehman Brothers was allowed to fail and brokerage Merrill Lynch sold itself to Bank of America Corp.

Bankruptcy for AIG would have led to complications and losses for financial institutions around the world doing business with the company and policy holders that AIG insured against losses.

Representative Paul Kanjorski told Reuters on Thursday that he had been informed that a large number of AIG's counterparties were European.


0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 10:00 pm
@okie,
And not just a 'minority' person either, but anybody who climbed out of the pit. I especially liked her metaphor of the two Americas. Obama's version is that the two Americas are the rich and the poor with the philosophy that he can take water out of the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end and thereby 'spread the wealth around'.

Her version of two Americas was the "rich capitalistic America" and the "poor socialist America". That really says it all doesn't it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 04:07 am
@Foxfyre,
Well what else would you expect? She#s certainly one of "your companions":
Quote:
Parker became a conservative Christian and subsequently became a spokesperson for related political issues. She opposes the welfare system, claims that stable families and self-reliance are the best way to end poverty and opposes abortion.
(wiki)
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Mar, 2009 07:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't 'expect' anything, Walter. I simply recognize and appreciate wisdom when I see it. Do you think your Wiki information somehow diminishes her opinion that stable families are more conducive to happiness and prosperity than are fractured families/children born out of wedlock/absentee dads? Is appreciation for self reliance some kind of rightwing nutso wacko concept? Is the idea that people are more prosperous by learning to earn their bread rather than depend on government handouts so foreign to the liberal mind that it is unacceptable? Or the fact that she is identified as a Christian is damning or something?

She is saying nothing that others who have honestly evaluated the net effects of the 'war on poverty' have not concluded:

From Thomas Sowell's book Black Rednecks and White Liberals
http://www.tsowell.com/images/rednecjs.jpg

Quote:
p.34-35 "White liberals, instead of comparing what has happened to the black family since the liberal welfare policies of the 1960s were put into practice, compare black families to white families and conclude that the higher rates of broken homes and unwed motherhood among blacks are due to "a legacy of slavery." But why the large-scale disintegration of the black family should have begun a hundred years after slavery is left unexplained. Whatever the situation of the black family relative to the white family, in the past or the present, it is clear that broken homes were far more common among blacks at the end of the twentieth century than they were in the middle of that century or at the beginning of that century-even though blacks at the beginning of the twentieth century were just one generation out of slavery. The widespread and casual abandonment of their children, and the women who bore them, by black fathers in the ghettos of the late twentieth century was in fact a painfully ironic contrast with what happened in the immediate aftermath of slavery a hundred years earlier, when observers in the South reported desperate efforts of freed blacks to find family members who have been separated from them during the era of slavery. A contemporary journalist reported meeting black men walking along the roads of Virginia and North Carolina, many of whom had walked across the state-looking for their families. Others reported similar strenuous and even desperate efforts of newly freed blacks to find members of their families."

p. 52 "By projecting a vision of a world in which the problems of blacks are the consequences of the actions of whites, either immediately or in times past, white liberals have provided a blanket excuse for shortcomings and even crimes by blacks. The very possibility of any internal cultural sources of the problems of blacks has been banished from consideration by the fashionable phrase "blaming the victim." "

p.55 "The general orientation of white liberals has been one of "What can we do for them?" What blacks can do for themselves has not only been of lesser interest, much of what blacks have in fact already done for themselves has been overshadowed by liberal attempts to get them special dispensations-whether affirmative action, reparations for slavery, or other race-based benefits-even when the net effect of these has been much less than the effects of blacks own self-advancement."


So what can you find to appear to discredit Dr. Sowell in Wiki?
 

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