55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 06:49 pm
@mysteryman,
I'm not personally making the claim that Ronald Reagan committed war crimes, but there are a multitude of articles charging Reagan with war crimes. Here's one:
http://boards.history.com/thread.jspa?threadID=300027391&tstart=0&mod=1145476358627
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 07:11 pm
@mysteryman,
I want to believe that you're not really this stupid, this obtuse, this blind, MM. You know what Google is, don't you? Try a little intellectual honesty and google these things for yourself.




genoves
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:22 pm
@mysteryman,
Mysteryman-- I am sure that you noted that Cicerone Imposter, JTT and Frank a Pisa are just producing intellectual flatulence. I do not believe a thing they wrote and you should not either since they give no evidence or documentation.

They seem to want to try to denigrate President Reagan on items that have nothing to do with his presidency. Marital problems, etc. Nothing to do with his presidency.

If such is the case, then Reagan's morality is far far far above the morality of Bill Clinton, or indeed,Jack Kennedy's. I can, of course, document the whore mongering of both CLinton and Kennedy and I am sure that you can also.

But, again, sexual activities that do not impinge on the performance of a job have nothing to do with the way in which AUTHORITIES, FAR FAR MORE QUALIFIED THAT ANYONE ON THIS THREAD, RATE THE PRESIDENTS.

genoves
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:32 pm
@genoves,
This is a brand new ranking done by 65Historians and released just yesterday. It is a new CSPAN ranking. The Historians who made these rankings are forty times smarter individually and know more about history that anyone on these threads. I will give a list of the Historians who put together this ranking to show that they come from all points of the ideological spectrum-left,center andright. But of course,you know that some people have never read much History so they would not recognize the names.

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Subscribe to Birmingham Business JournalBirmingham > NewsMonday, February 16, 2009, 1:09pm CST | Modified: Monday, February 16, 2009, 3:08pm
C-SPAN ranks U.S. presidentsBirmingham Business Journal
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C-SPAN ranks U.S. presidents




The country’s greatest president, according to a C-SPAN survey of historians, puts Abraham Lincoln at the top of the list, followed by George Washington.

C-SPAN asked 65 historians to rank all 42 presidents from George Washington through George W. Bush. The survey results were timed for release on Presidents Day.

Former New York governors Franklin D. Roosevelt and Theodore Roosevelt ranked fourth and fifth, respectively.

Grover Cleveland and Martin Van Buren, who also served as New York governors, were ranked 21st and 31st, respectively.

William McKinley ranked 16th, Jimmy Carter ranked 25th and Chester Arthur came in 32nd.

Millard Fillmore ranked 37th on the survey.

Ronald Reagan holds the best score among all presidents who have served since 1974, finishing 10th overall. The positions for other recent presidents are: Gerald Ford, 22nd; Jimmy Carter, 25th; George H.W. Bush, 18th; Bill Clinton, 15th; and George W. Bush, 36th.

James Buchanan, who served just before the Civil War, is rated as the worst president of all time. Next to last is Andrew Johnson, who was president just after the same war. Also in the bottom five are Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison and Warren Harding.


0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:42 pm
The Historians who participated in the rankings are listed below, Mysteryman--



Survey Participants

Survey participants are historians or professional observers of the presidency.

Ackerman, Ken Felzenberg, Alvin Maier, Pauline
Algor, Catherine Ferguson, Andrew Maranto, Robert
Allen, William Fleming, Thomas Marszelek, John
Anderson, Annelise Frazier, Michael McPherson, James
Anthony, Carl Sferrazza Gawalt, Gerard Medford, Edna
Arnold, Perry Goodrich, Debra Oates, Stephen
Baker, Dick Gordon-Reed, Annette Persico, Joseph
Baker, Jean Gormley, Ken Pika, Joe
Berns, Walter Greenberg, David Pious, Richard
Brands, H.W. Greene, J. Robert Randall, Willard Sterne
Brinkley, Alan Greenstein, Fred Reily, Russell
Brinkley, Doug Guelzo, Allen Renshon, Stanley
Brown, Lara Hayward, Steven Ritchie, Don
Burton, Vernon Helco, Hugh Rockman, Bert
Calhoun, Charles Henriques, Peter Sabato, Larry
Cannon, James Hess, Stephen Sheldon, Garrett
Cannon, Lou Holzer, Harold Simpson, Brooks
Cooper, John Milton Kauffman, Robert Smith, Richard Norton
Crapol, Edward Kengor, Paul K Stuckey, Mary
Cronin, Thomas Knott, Stephen Warsaw, Shirley
Dallek, Robert MacDougall, Walter
Dallek, Susan Madonna, G. Terry


0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 04:41 pm
WE THE PEOPLE SHOULD DIRECTLY CONTROL OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL STIMULUS OF OUR ECONOMY.

President Obama and the Congressional majority are approving what they call a "stimulus bill" that distributes government revenue to private individuals and private organizations. Nowhere in the Constitution is the President or Congress of the USA granted the power to do this. President Obama and the Congressional majority are violating their oaths they were required by the Constitution to make to qualify for their offices. They are violating those oaths of theirs to support the Constitution of the USA by adoption of their unconstitutional "stimulus bill."

By failing to support the Constitution of the USA, the President and the Congressional majority are committing treason against the United States. They are "adhering to the USA's enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Among these enemies are those who seek to replace our Constitutional Republic of the USA with a socialist republic.

While some claim that President Obama and the Congressional majority are merely emulating previous presidents all the way back to 1913 and President Wilson, that is simply not true. They are not merely emulating past presidential violations of the Constitution. They are expanding these emulations to a magnitude that, if not stopped, will destroy our Constitutional Republic.

HERE IS A SOLUTION

If we must accumulate trillions more in federal government debt to get us out of our current economic mess, then instead of the government spending us into debt its way, let's do it ourselves our way by reducing federal taxes and by trusting the people to spend their own money more wisely, efficiently, and effectively than the government is capable of doing on their behalf.

When reducing taxes let’s replace the current tax system with a uniform tax, a single tax on each and every dollar of gross income. That way every American who earns income carries his own weight and pays his fair share of the cost of the benefits of our government securing our constitutional rights. Let’s eliminate all exemptions, deductions, paybacks, or refunds, except deductions for gifts to qualified charities not totaling more than 99% of gross income. A qualified charity shall be any individual or organization that does NOT pay back any amount of the received charity to the donor, and is NOT part of the donor’s family: that is, NOT the donor’s spouse, former spouse, offspring, sibling, parent, grandparent, great grandparent, uncle, aunt, or first cousin.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 03:13 pm
http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf

"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy." -PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9, 2009

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.
Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we support a big increase in the burden of government, we the undersigned do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan's "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policy makers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

Signed by 104 American economists from all over the United States of America.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The link you posted is to another BB, like this one.
And its to a post from someone claiming to have been an Iranian infantry soldier.

There are no suppporting documents, and the person you linked to gives no evidence or proof of his claims.
That makes him suspect to me.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:39 pm
@JTT,
I did look, and saw lots of innuendo, supposition, blind hatred, and unsupported allegations.

Please show any evidence, proof that would stand up in court, that Reagan committed war crimes.

And remember, we werent at war, so charging anyone in the US with war crimes when we arent at war is a tough sell to begin with, but if you can provide any DOCUMENTED evidence, with sources and witnesses, I will be happy to look at it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:45 pm
@mysteryman,
Yeah, I agree; there's a conflict of interest and no support for his hearsay.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:58 pm
Last night I spent quite a bit of time reading various commentaries from a wide variety of sources on the internet--both those wildly complimentary of President Obama and Congress's actions so far and those highly critical and everything in between. I've been out on appointments all day which gave me quite a bit of time in the car listening to various radio broadcasts.

At this time I would like to report my perception of the public perception of what we are dealing with thus far:

1. President Obama is not governing anything close to his campaign rhetoric. His loyal opposition will continue to point that out. His faithful disciples don't care. At least not yet.

2. There is speculation that there was never any intent to free up credit with the TARP monies expended last year, but rather the intent was for the big banks to buy up the little ones to make at more intentional nationalization of the banks, if not total nationalization, easier to accomplish later this year. As it turns out, neither Wells Fargo nor NBA were in trouble at the time billions of dollars were handed to them, but they were to use the money to buy up smaller banks. Which they did.

3. It is becoming increasingly obvious that all or most of the emphasis of the stimulus package right now is to pay back, pay off, and/or curry favor with the Democrats' core constituency that they can count on. That constituency, among others, includes the undereducated, under motivated, under achievers, and anti-social of society who look to government to take care of them.

4. There is virtually no emphasis to reward the motivated, the achievers, and the principled who contribute to society rather than become a burden to it. In other words, those of us who prepared ourselves to support ourselves and have put in the time to do that had better be content with the old saw that 'virtue is its own reward'. We won't be receiving much if any stimulus help (or any other kind of help) from our Federal government that is doing its damndest to ensure that we all become dependent.

4. If the economy manages to improve or simply survives without severe staggering for the next four years, the PresBO camp will claim the credit for saving it or at least preventing it from being far worse and the most gullible of the faithful disciples will believe them and dutifully report it. If it continues to spiral downward and/or crashes or burns, however, the public backlash will be overwhelming.

Stay tuned for more non-scientific analysis of the public pulse.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 06:53 pm
@Foxfyre,
As others here I am uncomfortable with the label “conservative” defining my views on any particular issue. I base my political thinking on libertarianism sans anarchy, that is, unlike anarchists who feel government should be viewed as evil, I would add necessary but limited. The founding fathers formulated our system of government on the premise that its legitimacy rested in the people it attempted to govern. The biggest challenge the framers of The Constitution had, given a governing system based on democracy, was how to avoid the mob rule scenario. The very recognition of this possibility of excesses was beautifully prescient given the French Revolution. Indeed, this was an event that changed even Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of continuing revolutions to keep government ever cognizant of the people’s power.

The result of the Constitutional Convention, at the time, was a document that completely replaced the Articles of Confederation, established the republic we presently enjoy today, and stirred up more controversy than the TARP and Stimulus packages. The whole purpose of the document was to correct the deficiencies of the old Articles and keep individual political and economic freedoms while creating a strong and limited central government (manifest in the U.S. Constitution’s enumeration of those powers) that would promote commerce, in general, and protect the citizenry from both foreign incursions and all types of governmental meddling in their personal and economical lives. State and local government was seen to be the wisest source of most legislation since it was most informed about local mores and principles. The wisdom of this was found in the avoidance of assumptions and predictions by those far removed from those that would be governed by legislation so enacted. The judicial system was there to so interpret applicable laws. Americans were entrusted with their own destiny and were therein so responsible.

But times, as is their wont, have changed. The hope is that change will be better, but, G.W. Bush Hatred, 8 years of Republican legislative, and even, executive misbehavior (in the form of abandonment of principles), Obamania, and the economic crisis has led America into the perfect storm of one party rule by those who would have us believe that they, not American individuals know how to better spend (or invest, but our government doesn’t really invest) their hard earned money. President Obama’s bi-partisan promise is being ignored by those who are supposed to be on his side--our side! But this is not surprising. Anyone who believed they would see bi-partisan politics by electing any one particular citizen with the subsequent elimination of human nature has not been paying attention to the last 6,000 years or so of human history. The initial result was a bill that fulfills a Democratic Party wish list encompassing the last forty years. Bi-partisan government in the U.S. is a pipe dream that assumes that all in the decision making process agree as to what problems should be addressed, their proper solutions, and how those solutions should be effected. Obviously, even if the first assumption is true the latter will be areas of honest disagreement and contention. But in this one party environment our Constitution’s intended Madisonian goal of radical faction nullification has been short circuited.

Republican principles are defined by the RNC. Personal conservative values tend to be thought as stodgy, old fashioned and sometimes radical but they are always personal and honestly believed to have kept the country in good stead. Many conservative Republican economic values have the benefit of being tested by objective reasoning. A excellent example of this is the Laffer curve (Amply demonstrated by repeated data postings on this thread) which predicts greater tax revenues by actually lowering tax rates in certain areas of an economy which frees up capital that would otherwise not enter the economy at higher tax rates. This capital is used to invest in businesses and innovation to increase productivity, raise our standard of living, and increase overall wealth. The increase in wealth then becomes a taxable event increasing total tax revenues. The increased wealth, via lower tax rates, helps continue a cycle whereby more wealth is reinvested in the economy and the cycle begins anew. When discussing taxes it is important to specify whether one is discussing Tax Rates or Tax Revenue since they are not the same thing. Many go awry by equating higher tax rates with corresponding increased tax revenues but a simple examination of human behavior by way of the Laffer curve shows that this is not true. True: if you tax anything you will get less of it or less compliance or both.

In the more subjective areas of abortion and immigration things are less clear as to what is “right”. Republicans in the future may want to tailor their election platforms towards a more tolerant approach. Indeed, Michael Steele, the new RNC chairman, seemed to imply that radical fundamentalism or orthodoxy will not be tolerated in the GOP when he said in his short RNC Chairman acceptance speech that all are welcome under the tent but “…for those of you who wish to obstruct, get ready to get knocked over.”

An important area that must be addressed first is voter education as to Republican principles and why they make sense for those of us who live in the real world. Analogous to a scientific theory, if any one principle, being so examined, can’t stand up to the Klieg lights of reason and empirical data it must be discarded. The internet has been used by the left quite successfully. Republicans can reach many in this manner also. A good issue might be “Net Neutrality” Republicans could state their case (Against) to propose the encouragement of competition between providers and why “Net Neutrality” is a bad idea (doesn’t allow proper pricing and therefore suppresses providers from offering more bandwidth) and how Republican values would allow a better and faster internet for all through natural market forces.



Immigration reform put forth by Republicans must emit a more reasoned tone. Michael Steele mentioned on the Fox Sunday News show recently that Republicans will push for a policy to secure the borders first. This is wise but even he must think that an additional Bush like program to encourage immigrants already in the U.S. to become citizens is, in some sensible form, preferable to 20 million illegals on buses headed south. Those who are so uncaring should get ready to be “…knocked over”.


Judicial Activism might be an area where Republicans could make inroads with U.S. citizens, especially in light of Californians’ effort to circumvent it with the success of proposition 8 in California. Republicans should point out their opposition to Obama’s wish for “empathetic judges”. Cases should be decided on their own merits not on defendants’ “unfortunate circumstances”. This ignores those against whom crimes have been committed, cheats justice, and encourages potential “unfortunates” to lead a life of theft and violence. Empathy should first be focused on victims of crime not its perpetrators. If any empathy is given towards defendants it should be at their sentencing hearings.

Education reform: This is an area absolutely ripe for positive change. Republicans have been clamoring for change for years in this area, showcased private or charter schools that have worked (some employing those dreaded vouchers), seemingly, miracles in isolated areas where correctly focused goals and real world incentives have resulted in actual improvement in children’s reading and math levels. Honestly though, this is an area I think President Obama could make an enormous difference, certainly a “Change worth Hoping For”. This is where his bipartisan spirit and good will among Afro-Americans could shine by jettisoning such obstructionists as the teachers’ unions and their enablers in Congress by joining with all reformers, including interested Republicans, and help a lot of minority children in the inner city. He should consult with the likes of D.C.’s Chancellor of Education, Michelle Rhee, and D.C. Mayor Adrian Fenty. This is something on which the President could make his leadership bones on. If he doesn’t the Republicans should. If he resorts to the usual Representative Maxine Waters’ like solution of throwing more money at the problem they should ask why the D.C. education district’s cost per child is third highest in the nation while it fails to graduate a significant percentage of the student population from their High Schools. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) could be used but its flawed system that allows those being measured to set the metrics used to evaluate their own performance cannot continue if success is to be expected. If reform is all done with the only focus being the goal of properly educating our children there will be no need for time consuming debates on affirmative action since the problem (discrimination) that it intends to address (by discrimination) will be non-existent.


Republican Shadow Cabinet (British Model): This could be an institution that continually explains Republican positions and why they are held-- a loyal opposition constantly in view. This could perform two goals: Keep Republicans on message (unlike the Tom Delay Debacle) and provide a ready reference for campaigns where voters could clearly see the republican agenda. This would make it more difficult for the Republican opposition to change or twist specific candidate’s messages, and enable Republican candidates to honestly point to their historical positions.
This goal of ideological consistency and consonance would promote thoughtful and more centrist Republican positions where such issues are more subjective and provide both logical and empirically data based positions where hard facts would support more objective Republican positions. This would also be a yard stick to which Republican members of government could be compared to when examining whether or not they are sticking to the people’s agenda or their own.


Perhaps the RNC could promote lecture series about the various topics at local colleges and universities and start educating young, smart, and impressionable minds. These should be well balanced and rigorous to show both liberal and conservative sides of any particular issue with facts and figures, case studies honestly presented, and discussion and Q&A sessions of suitable length. Would it be possible to draw in youth with suitable celebrities? The left seems to have little problem doing this but can conservatives find suitable spokespeople who could actually participate and hold their own for a little while keeping those present interested and participating for 2 hours or so? A rock star giving a free mini-concert, yelling “Free Darfur”, and then running out of the building will not do. Perhaps Republicans could do something similar involving high school students starting in 10th grade then focusing more strongly on Juniors and Seniors"is this possible given teacher unions and left leaning academics? How do we reach the kid’s parents to encourage such education?

More pointedly, education of the general public should be concentrated on those who are not classically left leaning, that is, independents. There are increasing numbers of voters who shun party affiliation and want to take some time to examine the issues and make up their own minds as to what positions are best for the country. If Republicans are perceived to be correct they will win, but those perceptions must be honestly backed by reason and humanity or they will just become ideological albatrosses around Republicans necks.

As with any political contest that of the 2010 mid-terms will be defined by “Events”. However, we could safely assume that the economy will still be a stand out issue and therefore Government Fiscal policy will be relevant. Republicans seemed to be in tune with the public on Government spending. The GOP’s actions regarding the Democrats’ porcine “Stimulus” package was first viewed as obstructionist but their actions allowed the public more time to digest what was in it and how stimulating it might actually be, or not. The Democratic package’s popularity then became inversely proportional to the amount of time the public was exposed to it. Historically most economist put little faith in one time government “stimulus” plans (Case in point: GW’s last one in 2008). Most come too late, don’t spend enough, or spend too much in irrelevant sectors of the economy. All recessions see recovery by themselves so it’s difficult to determine how much good, if any, any given stimulus plan actually does. Most stimulus plans put taxpayers and their children in debt and add a net amount of zero capital to the economy. After all, no government can give anyone person a single cent without taking that cent from another, governments do not create wealth for tax payers. Remember also, all the spending in the latest plan ($787 billion at last count) is to be borrowed (this has future consequences regarding the price of money/credit/inflation but let’s not pile on too much here). Republicans should continue to stick to their values and make sure that the Democrats own this stimulus package and quietly and gently remind voters in 2010 of the fact. All indications are the economy will be, at best, only starting to recover by then. Unemployment levels will probably be the major metric that the “stimulus” package will be measured by and may provide a wedge that Republicans can utilize in educating the public. Republicans should reinforce the twin argument of tax cuts and smaller government for by the end of the present administration this could be an election winner given the size of the deficit by then. This increased deficit may have a double silver lining: Promotion of Entitlement reform and a more market based (less taxpayer subsidized) health care program.

As our economic system moves closer to that of income redistribution and cradle to grave socialism, citizens should realize their power is waning and will eventually be insignificant. Alarmist? Perhaps. It may seem hard to believe this but we are going down the path that leads to a nation of rent seekers. Many Middle East Oil producing nations are such entities. These are the very nations Fareed Zakaria uses to compare the individual freedoms to that of classical western nations in his book The Future of Freedom. He asks: Why are the citizens of classical western nations so much more free than those of the Middle East? He finds the answer in the fact that those citizens of ME nations get their money from the government whereas western governments get their money from their citizens, mainly (and importantly as it turns out) from the middle class. Think about it, this is the crux of the Republican economic argument of low taxes. Viewed from this stand point it is extremely American and patriotic to let people keep more of their money/power so that government is constantly lean and starved of excess power. Keep taxes low and small and less intrusive government follows. Extrapolating in the opposite Liberal/Progressive direction it would behoove all of our citizens to simply apply for and accept government jobs or welfare.

Conservative solutions seem to be almost irrelevant to the intended goals of those with the religion we know as Progressivism. Liberalism/Progressivism has always seemed, to me, focused on how things “should” be while neglecting human nature and economic realities. I can still hear Congressman Barney Frank’s plea, only a couple of weeks old, calling for an increased “Safety Net” for some Americans. This, after all he has done for Americans! Where does one begin? Progressives like Frank remind me of the “cable guy” in the Verizon commercial where, after the Verizon guy explains to the prospective customer all the technological and economical benefits of Verizon’s FIOS system, the customer then turns to the “cable guy” and asks what he can comparably offer. The “cable guy” then quickly exclaims “THE BEST OF INTENTIONS!!” Well, we all know where that road, so paved, leads.

JM
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 07:24 pm
THE STIMULUS BILL IS TREASON

President Obama and the Congressional majority are approving what they call a "stimulus bill" that distributes government revenue to private individuals and private organizations. Nowhere in the Constitution is the President or Congress of the USA granted the power to do this. President Obama and the Congressional majority are violating their oaths to support the Constitution of the USA by adoption of their "stimulus bill." By failing to support the Constitution of the USA, the President and the Congressional majority are committing treason against the United States. They are "adhering to the USA's enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort." Among these enemies are those who seek to overthrow the Constitutional Republic of the USA by replacing it with a socialist republic.

A SOLUTION

If WE THE PEOPLE must accumulate trillions more in debt to get us out of our current economic mess, then instead of the government illegally spending us into debt its way, let's do it legally WE THE PEOPLE’s way by reducing federal taxes and by trusting ourselves to spend our own money more wisely, efficiently, and effectively than the government is capable of doing on behalf of ourselves.

When reducing taxes let’s replace the current tax system with a uniform flat tax:
a single tax on each and every dollar of gross income. That way every American carries his own weight and pays his fair share of the cost of the benefits of our government securing our constitutional rights. Let’s eliminate all exemptions, deductions, paybacks, or refunds, except deductions for gifts to a qualified charity not totaling more than 99% of gross income. A qualified charity shall be any individual or organization that does NOT pay back any amount of the charity to the donor, and is NOT part of the donor’s family: that is, NOT the donor’s spouse, former spouse, offspring, sibling, parent, grandparent, great grandparent, uncle, aunt, or first cousin.

RELEVANT EXCERPTS FROM THE CONSTITUTION

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article VI. 3rd paragraph. The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article III.Section 3. Treason against the United States , shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
Article I. Section 8. 1st paragraph. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
;

Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Amendment X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



RELEVANT DEFINITIONS

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/
Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=common&x=32&y=8
Main Entry: 1com•mon

Function: adjective

1 a : of or relating to a community at large (as a family unit, social group, tribe, political organization, or alliance) : generally shared or participated in by individuals of a community : not limited to one person or special group <we, the people of the U.S., in order to ... provide for the common defense -- U.S. Constitution>

2 a : held, enjoyed, experienced, or participated in equally by a number of individuals : possessed or manifested by more than one individual

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=defense&x=20&y=9
Main Entry: 1de•fense

Function: noun

1 a : the act of defending

2 : capability of resisting attack

3 a : means or method of defending

4 a : defenders or the positions taken up by them


Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=general&x=24&y=8
Main Entry: 1gen•er•al
...
Function: adjective
...
1 : involving or belonging to the whole of a body, group, class, or type : applicable or relevant to the whole rather than to a limited part, group, or section
...
3 a : applicable or pertinent to the majority of individuals involved :
<we, the people of the United States, in order to ... promote the general welfare -- U.S. Constitution>
b : concerned or dealing with universal rather than particular aspects

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=welfare&x=36&y=10
Main Entry: 1wel•fare

Function: noun

1 a : the state of faring or doing well : thriving or successful progress in life : a state characterized especially by good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=imposts&x=28&y=10
Main Entry: 1im•post

Function: noun

1 : something imposed or levied: TAX, TRIBUTE, DUTY

Quote:

http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=uniform&x=29&y=8
Main Entry: 1uni•form

Function: adjective

1 : marked by lack of variation, diversity, change in form, manner, worth, or degree : showing a single form, degree, or character in all occurrences or manifestations

2 : marked by complete conformity to a rule or pattern or by similarity in salient detail or practice

3 : marked by unvaried and changeless appearance (as of surface, color, or pattern)

4 : consistent in conduct, character, or effect : lacking in variation, deviation, or unequal or dissimilar operation <the constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish a uniform rule of naturalization …>


LINKS TO THE TEXT OF THE STIMULUS BILL:
http://www.propublica.org/special/stimulus-plan-taxcut-list
http://www.propublica.org/article/download-the-stimulus-bill-090213

http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/cato_stimulus.pdf
"There is no disagreement that we need action by our government, a recovery plan that will help to jumpstart the economy." -PRESIDENT-ELECT BARACK OBAMA, JANUARY 9, 2009

With all due respect Mr. President, that is not true.
Notwithstanding reports that all economists are now Keynesians and that we support a big increase in the burden of government, we the undersigned do not believe that more government spending is a way to improve economic performance. More government spending by Hoover and Roosevelt did not pull the United States economy out of the Great Depression in the 1930s. More government spending did not solve Japan's "lost decade" in the 1990s. As such, it is a triumph of hope over experience to believe that more government spending will help the U.S. today. To improve the economy, policy makers should focus on reforms that remove impediments to work, saving, investment and production. Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best ways of using fiscal policy to boost growth.

Signed by 104 American economists from all over the United States of America.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 09:34 pm
@JamesMorrison,
James, you touched on most of the themes hit upon in this increasingly lengthy thread and I don't think many MACs (i.e. Modern American Conservatives) would disagree with you on many, if any, of your points made.

I too reject being labeled 'conservative' according to the dictionary definition some think defines the modern American conservative. I do not see myself as rigid in any of my political, religious, or socioeconomic views, but I have arrived at reasoned conclusions that I think consistent with the core definition of MAC-ism.

The few of us willing to accept the MAC lable so far seem to be pretty much in agreement that the MAC holds views fairly consistent with classical liberalism as defined here. (Note the reference to similarity with libertarianism (little 'L'):

Quote:
Classical liberalism

Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1], laissez-faire liberalism[2], and market liberalism[3] or, outside the United States and Britain, sometimes simply liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom, free markets, and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from restraint, equality under the law, constitutional limitation of government, free markets, and a gold standard to place fiscal constraints on government as exemplified in the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, David Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others.

As such, it is the fusion of economic liberalism with political liberalism of the late 18th and 19th centuries. The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that laissez-faire economics will bring about a spontaneous order or invisible hand that benefits the society, though it does not necessarily oppose the state's provision of some basic public goods with what constitutes public goods being seen as very limited. The qualification classical was applied retroactively to distinguish it from more recent, 20th-century conceptions of liberalism and its related movements, such as social liberalism Classical liberals are suspicious of all but the most minimal government and object to the welfare state.

Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman, are credited with influencing a revival of classical liberalism in the twentieth century after it fell out of favor beginning in the late nineteenth century and much of the twentieth century. In relation to economic issues, this revival is sometimes referred to, mainly by its opponents, as "neoliberalism". The German "ordoliberalism" has a whole different meaning, since the likes of Alexander Rüüüüstow and Wilhelm Rööööpke have advocated a more interventionist state, as opposed to laissez-faire liberals. Classical liberalism has many aspects in common with modern libertarianism, with the terms being used almost interchangeably by those who support limited government.


As for modern American liberalism, it is at least a kissing cousin of socialism, and, for the farthest left of this group, the DNA is practically indistinguishable.

One of my favorite Thomas Sowell quotations: "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."

Some other favorite Thomas Sowell quotations that are pertinent for the current national debate:“No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: "But what would you replace it with?" When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with”

“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.”

“One of the consequences of such notions as "entitlements" is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence.”

”Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” (This one may be a Winston Churcill quote instead of a Sowell quote, but I like it.)


“Despite a voluminous and often fervent literature on "income distribution," the cold fact is that most income is not distributed: It is earned.”


genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 09:40 pm
@ican711nm,
A`great post, Ican. The left wing fears definitions because it pins them down.
Keep up those definitions, please!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 09:41 pm
@JamesMorrison,
James, You are kidding us, right? When has any conservative administration benefit America and Americans? Do you really believe the lowering of taxes is good for our economy? Please explain this with some evidence in reality.

Do you really think Americans knows best how to handle their own finances? Is that why the majority never saved for the past decade or so? Don't forget, that also includes conservatives - not just liberals.

Who are you blaming for this financial crisis?
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 09:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

3. It is becoming increasingly obvious that all or most of the emphasis of the stimulus package right now is to pay back, pay off, and/or curry favor with the Democrats' core constituency that they can count on. That constituency, among others, includes the undereducated, under motivated, under achievers, and anti-social of society who look to government to take care of them.

end of quote.

I wonder if there will be any agency or group that will be able to ascertain the race or ethnicity of those who will have their mortagages adjusted. In Illinois, anedotal reports reveal that a very large number of families who have run into mortgage difficulties are black or Hispanic. It would appear that groups who comprise only about 30% of the US population are overrepresented in the foreclosure group. Because of the changes made in the housing market during the late nineties, minorities were favored and many were able to buy houses with no money down.

This is, as Foxfyre alluded, nothing but a payback. It is also a payback which forces the 90% of the people who have never had trouble paying their mortgages to pay for the undereducated, underachievers, under motivated and anti social of our society.
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 10:09 pm
@mysteryman,
Mysteryman- Did you know that JTT and Cicerone Imposter have been elected to the Society of Presidential Historians? I can only conclude that when I read their posts. However, I could not, even after diligent searching, find their names on the lists of Presidential Historians who voted Ronald Reagan the TENTH BEST PRESIDENT WE HAVE EVER HAD.

Latest News
February 16, 2009,
C-SPAN ranks U.S. presidents

The country’s greatest president, according to a C-SPAN survey of historians, puts Abraham Lincoln at the top of the list, followed by George Washington.

C-SPAN asked 65 historians to rank all 42 presidents from George Washington through George W. Bush. The survey results were timed for release on Presidents Day.

Former New York governors Franklin D. Roosevelt and Theodore Roosevelt ranked fourth and fifth, respectively.

Grover Cleveland and Martin Van Buren, who also served as New York governors, were ranked 21st and 31st, respectively.

William McKinley ranked 16th, Jimmy Carter ranked 25th and Chester Arthur came in 32nd.

Millard Fillmore ranked 37th on the survey.

Ronald Reagan holds the best score among all presidents who have served since 1974, finishing 10th overall. The positions for other recent presidents are: Gerald Ford, 22nd; Jimmy Carter, 25th; George H.W. Bush, 18th; Bill Clinton, 15th; and George W. Bush, 36th.

James Buchanan, who served just before the Civil War, is rated as the worst president of all time. Next to last is Andrew Johnson, who was president just after the same war. Also in the bottom five are Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison and Warren Harding.
0 Replies
 
genoves
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 10:19 pm
@mysteryman,
Here are the names of the Presidential Historians, who, by virtue of their profession, know five hundred times more than JTT and Cicerone Imposter about Ronald Reagan.

As you said, Mysteryman,if they can provide documentation, we can look at it,but they never provide real documentation, only gossip.

Here are the names of the people, five hundred times more knowledgeable than Cicerone Imposter or JTT who ranked Ronald Reagan as the tenth best president the US has ever had( I am sure that you know,Mysteryman, that some of these historians have been granted access to documents and letters that Cicerone Imposter and JTT have never seen and never will see UNTIL THEY READ ALL OF THE BOOKS PUBLISHED BY THE GROUP BELOW--The Historians who participated in the rankings are listed below.



Survey Participants

Survey participants are historians or professional observers of the presidency.

Ackerman, Ken Felzenberg, Alvin Maier, Pauline
Algor, Catherine Ferguson, Andrew Maranto, Robert
Allen, William Fleming, Thomas Marszelek, John
Anderson, Annelise Frazier, Michael McPherson, James
Anthony, Carl Sferrazza Gawalt, Gerard Medford, Edna
Arnold, Perry Goodrich, Debra Oates, Stephen
Baker, Dick Gordon-Reed, Annette Persico, Joseph
Baker, Jean Gormley, Ken Pika, Joe
Berns, Walter Greenberg, David Pious, Richard
Brands, H.W. Greene, J. Robert Randall, Willard Sterne
Brinkley, Alan Greenstein, Fred Reily, Russell
Brinkley, Doug Guelzo, Allen Renshon, Stanley
Brown, Lara Hayward, Steven Ritchie, Don
Burton, Vernon Helco, Hugh Rockman, Bert
Calhoun, Charles Henriques, Peter Sabato, Larry
Cannon, James Hess, Stephen Sheldon, Garrett
Cannon, Lou Holzer, Harold Simpson, Brooks
Cooper, John Milton Kauffman, Robert Smith, Richard Norton
Crapol, Edward Kengor, Paul K Stuckey, Mary
Cronin, Thomas Knott, Stephen Warsaw, Shirley
Dallek, Robert MacDougall, Walter
Dallek, Susan Madonna, G. Terry
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 11:19 pm
@genoves,
genoves wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

3. It is becoming increasingly obvious that all or most of the emphasis of the stimulus package right now is to pay back, pay off, and/or curry favor with the Democrats' core constituency that they can count on. That constituency, among others, includes the undereducated, under motivated, under achievers, and anti-social of society who look to government to take care of them.

end of quote.

I wonder if there will be any agency or group that will be able to ascertain the race or ethnicity of those who will have their mortagages adjusted. In Illinois, anedotal reports reveal that a very large number of families who have run into mortgage difficulties are black or Hispanic. It would appear that groups who comprise only about 30% of the US population are overrepresented in the foreclosure group. Because of the changes made in the housing market during the late nineties, minorities were favored and many were able to buy houses with no money down.

This is, as Foxfyre alluded, nothing but a payback. It is also a payback which forces the 90% of the people who have never had trouble paying their mortgages to pay for the undereducated, underachievers, under motivated and anti social of our society.


I did not allude to the ethnicity or race of those getting paybacks, however. I don't know what race or ethnicity they are and don't care. If some happen to be black or Hispanic, the fact that they're getting mortgage help is because they are in over their heads because they imprudently bought more than they could pay for though a few are likely in trouble for reasons beyond their control. Neither has anything to do with their race or ethnicity however, though I will admit that the Democrats do seem to prey on those groups and encourage dependency more than some other groups.

 

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