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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 12:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
You cannot help the poor by tearing down the rich.


You don't help the poor with policy that widens the gap between the rich and the poor either.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 02:51 pm
So what do you accomplish by narrowing that gap artificially? The poor won't be any richer and the rich will have much less ability to fund new libraries, hospital wings, foundations, etc.; they will have less money to save for others to borrow; they will have less money to invest to help businesses grow, they will have less money for venture capital or to grow/expand their own businesses so that there are more jobs to offer to the poor people, etc. etc. etc.

The only logical way to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor are to implement policies that enable to poor to do what is necessary so that they will become richer. And the best way to do that is to encourage values so that most children are born in a home where a competent mom and dad are present; to offer kids a good education and encourage them to take advantage of it, to discourage gang and other illegal activities, to instill in them the value of waiting until marriage to have kids, of being willing to work at McJobs to get experience, develop a work ethic, develop references, and to learn a marketable trade and manage responsibly so that they will grow their own wealth instead of squandering it.

There is much less disparity between the rich and those who embrace these MAC values.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:00 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

So what do you accomplish by narrowing that gap artificially? The poor won't be any richer and the rich will have much less ability to fund new libraries, hospital wings, foundations, etc.; they will have less money to save for others to borrow; they will have less money to invest to help businesses grow, they will have less money for venture capital or to grow/expand their own businesses so that there are more jobs to offer to the poor people, etc. etc. etc.

The only logical way to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor are to implement policies that enable to poor to do what is necessary so that they will become richer. And the best way to do that is to encourage values so that most children are born in a home where a competent mom and dad are present; to offer kids a good education and encourage them to take advantage of it, to discourage gang and other illegal activities, to instill in them the value of waiting until marriage to have kids, of being willing to work at McJobs to get experience, develop a work ethic, develop references, and to learn a marketable trade and manage responsibly so that they will grow their own wealth instead of squandering it.

There is much less disparity between the rich and those who embrace these MAC values.


Funny, Clinton's policies led to a narrowing of that gap - and to the poor being 'richer,' so to speak.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:04 pm
Quote:
Disparity Between Rich And Poor Worst Since 1970

Contact: Thompson, Ryan
212 636-6538
[email protected]

NEW YORK � Despite an economic boom that has increased employment and boosted salaries nationwide, the disparity between the rich and poor is at its worst point since 1970, according to the 1999 Index of Social Health, published by Fordham University. According to the report, which gauges the nation's performance in addressing 16 key social problems � including child abuse, health insurance coverage, homelessness and homicides � the poor have suffered under the Clinton Administration. "There is obviously another side to our prosperity," says Marc L. Miringoff, Ph.D., director of Fordham's Institute for Innovation in Social Policy. "While economic growth improved, social health declined. In fact, the gap between them has opened to its widest point in two decades." The study shows that four indicators have reached their worst point since 1970: child abuse, access to food stamps, health insurance coverage and the economic inequality between the rich and poor. The Index of Social Health is the nation's only cumulative measure of the impact of such a broad range of social problems on so many sectors of society. According to the Index, which uses the latest available figures, from 1997, the number of people eligible for food stamps but who don't receive them has grown by 17 percent. The number of uninsured has increased by 5 percent. The overall Index declined by 1.3 percent, to 46 out of a possible 100. "This is only the second time since 1970 that four indicators have hit their lowest point in the same year," says Miringoff. "After a relatively good performance in the past few years, this is a discouraging sign." Founded in 1841, Fordham University is New York City's Jesuit university. It has residential campuses in the north Bronx and Manhattan, and academic centers in Tarry-town and Armonk, N.Y.
http://www.fordham.edu/campus_resources/enewsroom/archives/archive_191.asp
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
Boy, it's a good thing GW came along to give the rich a tax cut after the way Clinton treated them.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:06 pm
Bill Gates earns a huge amount of money more than I do. So what?
Bill Gates has contributed a huge amount more to our society than I have.
Bill Gates' success has led to my enjoyment of his computer programs at a price I can afford.
Hey Bill! Keep up your good work!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:08 pm
@ican711nm,
What's your point? It certainly isn't new info, and there are many wealthy people who donate to charities.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:27 pm
And I suppose the numbnuts will keep parroting that 'tax cuts for the rich' line that is so popular in bashing the Bush administration. I have no hope that they will objectively read yet another good evaluation of those tax cuts, but here is another good one in case somebody capable of reading and understanding it decides to check out the thread:

Quote:
Bush’s Tax Cuts for the “Rich” Actually Favor the Poor
By Meg | May 13, 2008

It really bugs me when people in the media and (increasingly) in everyday conversation insist on mentioning Bush’s “tax cuts for the rich.” People throw that phrase around a LOT (usually as evidence that Republicans are evil and Democrats are pure goodness), but I’ve found that few actually have any idea what tax cuts they are referring to and what taxes were like before the infamous cuts.

To be honest, I didn’t either. So I did some research; allow me to enlighten those brave souls who insist on arguing about such matters at cocktail parties.

In 2001 and 2003, President George W Bush signed into law various tax cuts. I’d like to quote the following from a May 2008 Kiplinger magazine article by Knight Kiplinger entitled “Fuzzy Tax Talk:”

Those laws slashed tax bills of low- and middle-income families, sometimes down to zero for those with several children (each of whom is now worth a $1,000 tax credit). The percentage declines for upper-income people were much smaller; but in terms of actual dollar amounts, the wealthy received the bulk of the savings because they pay the most income taxes.

Specifically, with regard to the wealthy, Bush lowered the marginal tax rates for those with incomes over $350,000 (the top tax rate, admittedly on the rich) from 40% to 35%. He also approved the lowering of the capital gains tax from 20% to 15% (which helps everyone who owns stock, real estate, or any other sell-able asset, but admittedly most benefits the wealthiest members of society since they own more of those assets).

That’s what he did for the “rich.” But he also lowered every OTHER tax bracket (from 15, 28, 31, 36, and 39.6 percent to 10, 15, 25, 28, 33, and 35 percent) and added other of tax credits and breaks for the “poor” such as the child care tax credit, AMT, and earned income tax credit. The following data is taken from the articleBush’s Tax Cuts Are Unfair…:

If you and your spouse have a taxable income of $60,000 a year, you’ve had almost a 24 percent income tax cut since President Bush took office. (And ditto if your income was just $20,000.) Meanwhile, the folks who make $350,000 a year got a cut of only about 12.5 percent; those who make $1 million a year got an even smaller cut. Pre-Bush, the $1 million a year couple paid 33 times as much as the $60,000 couple; today they pay more than 38 times as much.

Overall, the biggest percentage cuts went to the poorest of the poor (those with incomes in the $10,000 range) and the next biggest to those making about $60,000. Surprised? I bet not; you’re wondering about the other cuts - the ones on dividends, capital gains, and inheritance taxes that allegedly skew gains to the rich. Well lets add all those changes in, along with all the other Bush tax breaks such as the child-care tax credit, the earned income tax credit, the AMT, etc.:

The biggest percentage tax cut"about 17.6 percent"went to taxpayers in the second-lowest quintile, that is to taxpayers with below-average incomes. After that, the size of the tax cut falls off as you move from the lower middle to the middle middle (12.6 percent) to the upper middle class (9.9 percent). It rises again slightly for the top quintile, but only to a little over 11 percent.

[Click the article above for a chart of this data.]

Here’s the real kicker. The data shows that the tax code has gotten even MORE progressive since Bush took office (skewed so the richer pay a bigger percentage of their income to taxes than the poorer), and that kind of change is really hard to undo. But federal spending dramatically increased as well; eventually (soon and very soon) Americans are going to have to pay for that. Taxes will rise again no matter who next takes office.

And when they do they’ll rise according to the more progressive model. All three candidates want to leave the low and middle income tax breaks alone - the debate is only over by how much to raise the taxes on the “rich” (the highest tax rate, capital gains tax, and estate tax) and where to draw the classification line for “rich.” They used to pay only 33 times more than the average taxpayer; thanks to Bush it’s now 38 times more. Wonder where it’ll end…
http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/05/13/bushs-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-actually-favor-the-poor/
BigTexN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Its easy to demonize the wealthy...like Bill Gates etal...and hold "the poor" like Nadya Suleman up to some sort of higher, idealistic standard.

The truth is, the Nadya's of the world are more of a drain on our economy while the Bill Gates's are contributors back to the economy through their charity, the quality of life their inventions bring and the employees they employ through their companies.

It is through the charity of the rich...and the huge amount of income tax they pay...that the poor like Nadya can have 14 kids, still be single and unemployed, and yet survive in this great country.

Demonizing the rich while ignoring their contributions is foolish.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
You do realize that the study disproves your claims of how to treat the poor to enrich them.

During the Clinton years, welfare was reformed. This led to a large inequality between the rich and the poor not less as you seem to think will when the poor are forced to work instead of receiving payments.

The last Index of Social Health in 2003, Dr Mirginhoff died in 2004, states:
Quote:
In the year 2001, the Index of Social Health dropped 8 points to 46 out of a possible 100. This represents the steepest decline in a single year since 1982. Nine of the sixteen indicators grew worse, the most since 1981

Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:36 pm
@BigTexN,
Well said BigTex and welcome to the thread.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:37 pm
@parados,
Parados read both articles--the one re the Clinton administration and the one re the Bush tax cuts. Then get back to me. You obviously have not read them with any kind of attempt to understand what each is saying.

Neither addresses in any way my prescription for how to reduce the inequity between rich and poor.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
I suppose you think the only good discussions about taxes are ones that exclude 50% of taxes.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:39 pm
@parados,
You suppose wrong and building a straw man doesn't help your argument.
BigTexN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:48 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Well said BigTex and welcome to the thread.


Thank you Foxfyre.

Being new to a2k, I'm always looking for an opportunity to jump in...I'm enjoying it quite a bit!
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 03:49 pm
@BigTexN,
As long as you have a thick hide, saintlike patience and tolerance for those who are unable to discuss but just like to throw stones, and a good bullshit detector, you'll love it here. Smile

Don't forget to tag the threads of interest so you won't lose them.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:20 pm
@parados,
I have read the articles Fox. The problem is you can't see past what is written.

Let's take the tax article on Bush's tax cuts.
A family making $60,000 pays income tax on part of that income and FICA on all of it.
The 24% tax cut doesn't occur for that family. Most of it's tax liability is from FICA, not income tax.
The family making $1million pays income tax on part of their income and FICA on part of it.

But the slate article is based on "TAXABLE income." That means the family making $60K taxable probably paid FICA on $80K if they had 2 wage earners.

Income taxes make up only 50% of Federal revenues. Any comparison of tax savings only using income taxes ignores the other 50% of revenues.

Let's do a simple math exercise.

The family making $60K paid $6120 in FICA taxes if both people worked and $20k in deductions.
The family making $1million paid roughly 20,500 in FICA taxes

Using the tax brackets for 2000 and 2003
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
if we simply add in the FICA paid by both groups -
Suddenly the family making $60K only gets a 14% tax cut while the family making $1 mill gets a 12% cut.

If we consider the ENTIRE FICA paid per person, after all the money is being paid in taxes in that person's name, it suddenly looks worse for the family making $60K.
The family making $60K only got a 10% tax cut.
The family making $1mill got an 11% tax cut.

So, you see Fox, using income tax in no way represents the dollars going to the Feds from each family. Doing so misrepresents the true tax burden of each group.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
A strawman? Did you or did you not post an article arguing the percentages on tax cuts? Telling you the article only included income taxes isn't creating a strawman. It is pointing out the weakness of the argument you postted.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:27 pm
@parados,
The article on taxes was rebuttal to your shot re Bush tax cuts going to the rich. It had nothing to do with my prescription to reduce poverty and rebutted it in no way.

The article re the Clinton disparity between rich and poor was rebuttal to Cyclops shot claiming the poor did better in the Clinton administration. It had nothing to do with my prescription to reduce poverty and rebutted it in no way.

The straw man was your claim of what I supposed which was ridiculous on the face of it.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
So is the article about the poor doing worse under Clinton true or not?
If true then it shows that the welfare changes didn't work. If not true then it doesn't rebut Cyclops.

Is the change in welfare forcing the poor to work helping them or not? Is it reducing the inequality?
 

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