55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:39 pm
Fox doesn't understand that we have always had an ability-to-pay income tax system. That is the result of graduated rates. Sure, the very rich pay more, as they should. Say someone making a million has to pay a flat tax rate of 20 %. That leaves him with $800,000, thus not affecting his luxurious lifestyle. But the guy making $20,000, which is below poverty, must pay $2,000, depriving him of food, healthcare, or rent.

Tex, it is a cheap shot to bring up that nutty woman with all the kids. She is hardly representative of the working poor in the country. In fact, she doesn't work. If this is the best you can do, maybe you can find a simpler board on which to post.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:41 pm
@parados,
parados, Just a word of warning; using gross income to determine taxes will not work; different people at that income level of $60,000 have different levels of write-offs. It's what is shown as Net Taxable Income is what really counts.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:47 pm
@parados,
I didn't see a single thing in anything I've said that suggests that the government should force the poor to do anything. That's purely an invention of your fertile imagination.

However, I think had the poor been encouraged to apply my prescription which includes application of MAC values into the mix, that decline in the social index would have been greatly reduced or eliminated altogether.

The problem is not how much the rich have but how much the poor don't have. Isn't it reasonable to think that it helps the poor more to encourage the poor to get out of poverty? I can't see how it helps the poor in any way, and can see many opportunities for the poor to be hurt, by making the rich less rich.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:51 pm
Published on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 by the Rocky Mountain News (Colorado)
Rich-Poor Gap Widens
by Paul Campos

Over the past generation, much mainstream economic thought has assumed that what is good for rich people is good for America. Naturally, this view has tended to transform university economics departments and business schools into cheerleaders for the Republican Party.

Ask professor Pangloss of the University of Chicago what we ought to do about capital gains or the inheritance tax or unions, and he will dazzle you with equations supposedly demonstrating that the political outcomes sought by the wealthiest Americans are also best for society as a whole.

That, at any rate, is the current economic orthodoxy. How well does it reflect reality?

Nearly 50 years ago, the economist John Kenneth Galbraith published The Affluent Society, in which he predicted that an increasingly wealthy America was in danger of producing "private wealth and public squalor." A few years later, Galbraith advised Presidents Kennedy and Johnson as they extended the post-New Deal state in ways that lessened the hardships of poverty for millions of Americans.

The America Galbraith lived to see - he died last week at the age of 97 - became an immensely rich nation. In real terms, the gross domestic product is now five times larger than when The Affluent Society appeared, which means that, when one accounts for population growth, the average American is nearly three times wealthier.

But "average" is a tricky concept; it's been noted that if you have one foot in a bucket of ice and another in a bonfire, a statistician will tell you that, on average, the temperature is fine. Over the past quarter-century, political power has shifted from Democrats to Republicans, with striking results for the average distribution of wealth.

Since the election of Ronald Reagan the wealth of the nation has more than doubled. Per capita, Americans are now 70 percent richer than they were in 1979. Where have these several trillion dollars of new affluence gone?

For poor people, the answer is clear: Essentially none of this wealth has come their way. Adjusted for inflation, the tenth percentile of after-tax family income is almost exactly the same today as it was in 1979 - about $13,500 (note this means that 30 million Americans live on even less). For the middle class, the situation is only slightly different. In 1979, the average middle-class family had an after-tax income of $38,000; today that figure is about $43,700, meaning that over the past quarter-century the average American family has seen its income rise by about $200 per year.

For our wealthiest citizens, by contrast, 25 years of Republican rule have made these very much the best of times. During this period, the average after-tax income of the top 1 percent of Americans has risen an astonishing 111.3 percent, from $298,900 to $631,700 per year (again, all these figures are adjusted for inflation).

In other words, in absolute terms the poor are just as poor as they were a generation ago, while a middle-class family's annual share of the last quarter-century's worth of economic growth allows it to buy one extra tank of gas every three months. Meanwhile, in relative terms, both groups are far poorer: indeed, compared to the rich, most Americans are now only half as well-off as they were during the Carter presidency.

Like his intellectual mentor Thorstein Veblen, Galbraith understood that, for all its pretensions to being a science, economics has much more in common with sociology. And, like Veblen, he recognized that economists who fail to appreciate this point are particularly prone to confuse ideological commitment for scientific truth.

That so many of his academic colleagues ended up arguing that the increasingly vast gulf between America's rich and everyone else is actually a desirable state of affairs, did not, I suspect, surprise him.

Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado. Email to: [email protected].

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0502-30.htm
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 04:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The 60k is TAXABLE income. I merely assumed 80K gross for FICA.

A married couple with no kids would have about 17-18K in exemptions and deductions. Married with kids would have more and since the article listed most of those new child credits in figuring the 24% reduction, I will have underestimated gross income and FICA paid.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:01 pm
@Foxfyre,
This would be the product of a fertile imagination Fox.
Quote:
The article on taxes was rebuttal to your shot re Bush tax cuts going to the rich.



I made no shot re Bush tax cuts going to the rich. In fact, the article you provided supports my statement. The rich did get tax cuts.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Looks like professor Pangloss screwed up big time; when the gap between rich and poor widenend, our economy went into a tailspin that'll make the depression of the early twenties seem like kid's stuff. Our economy today is much different today than it was a just few decades ago, because of the world economy. Ownership of commerce is now world-wide, and even our bonds are sold mostly to foreign countries.

Professor Pangloss gets an "F."
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:34 pm
LET'S HAVE A LITTLE TRUTH IN POSTING
Quote:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2051527/posts
Highest and lowest Income Tax Rates 1913 to 2007
Partial History of
U.S. Federal Income Tax Rates
Since 1913
Applicable
Year - Bracket Quantity - First bracket -- Top bracket - President
...
1971-1981 15 brackets -- 14% - 70% CARTER/REAGAN
1982-1986 12 brackets -- 12% - 50% REAGAN
1987 ------ 5 brackets --- 11% - 38.5% REAGAN
1988-1990 3 brackets -- 15% - 33% REAGAN/BUSH sr
1991-1992 3 brackets -- 15% - 31% BUSH sr/CLINTON
1993-2000 5 brackets -- 15% - 39.6% CLINTON
2001 ------ 5 brackets -- 15% - 39.1% BUSH jr
2002 ------ 6 brackets -- 10% - 38.6% BUSH jr
2003-2007 6 brackets -- 10% - 35% BUSH jr

Bush Jr reduced tax rates on the bottom and top brackets, and on some brackets in between.
0 Replies
 
BigTexN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:41 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Tex, it is a cheap shot to bring up that nutty woman with all the kids. She is hardly representative of the working poor in the country. In fact, she doesn't work. If this is the best you can do, maybe you can find a simpler board on which to post.


Isn't it just as much a cheap shot to point at bankers as representatives of the rich?

Or, are your "cheap shots" the exception to the rule?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Our economy went into a tailspin in 2007 after the Democrats refused throughout Bush Jr's term to correct the Fanny & Freddy & Ginny loan policies by curtailing them from lending money to those who could/would not pay their interest rates.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:51 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, As usual, you don't know what you are talking about.

This issue has been discussed and the same things repeated ad nauseam.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:51 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

This would be the product of a fertile imagination Fox.
Quote:
The article on taxes was rebuttal to your shot re Bush tax cuts going to the rich.



I made no shot re Bush tax cuts going to the rich. In fact, the article you provided supports my statement. The rich did get tax cuts.


No, the rich got no tax cuts as those on your side seem to be defining 'cuts'. Had you read the article, you would have seen that. Bush/Congress reduced the tax RATE which resulted in the rich paying substantially more in taxes than they had been paying previously. Admittedly the increase in tax payments was mostly voluntary, which no doubt offends some leftists who don't want to appreciate how government policy affects human behavior, but only in the liberal world is more taxes collected called giving the rich an unfair tax cut. But then only in the liberal world is a reduction in the rate of increase of spending called a spending cut.

The language of MAL economics and MAC economics seems to be an even wider divide than the disparity between rich and poor.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 05:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You repeat your falsities ad nauseam, and I repeat their rebuttals ad finitum
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 06:11 pm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf
TABLE 1.1 SUMMARY OF BUDGET RECEIPTS OUTLAYS SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS 1789-2012 (IN BILLIONS OF DOLLARS)

YEAR " FEDERAL RECEIPTS " %CHANGE (within a president's term)

1976 " 379,292 -- ----------
1977 -- 355,559
1978 -- 399,561
1979 -- 463,302
1980 -- 517,112 -- +36.3
1981 "- 599,272
1982 "- 617,786
1983 "- 600,562
1984 "- 666,486 -- +28.9
1985 "- 734,088
1986 "- 769,215
1987 "- 854,353
1988 "- 909,303 -- +36.4
1989 "- 991,190
1990 "- 1,032,094
1991 "- 1,055,093
1992 "- 1,091,328 -- +20.2
1993 "- 1,154,471
1994 "- 1,258,721
1995 "- 1,351,932
1996 "- 1,453,177 -- +33.2
1997 "- 1,579,423
1998 "- 1,721,955
1999 "- 1,827,645
2000 "- 2,025,457 " +39.4
2001 "- 1.991,426
2002 "- 1,853,395
2003 "- 1,782,532
2004 "- 1,880,279 -- -7.2 (over recession inherited from Clinton)
2005 "- 2,153,859
2006 "- 2,407,254 -- +28.0 (over a Bush Jr half term)


A recession started in the last year of Clinton's 2nd term and continued into Bush's term. After Bush's tax rate reductions in 2003, the economy started to improve until 2007 when the dues for the Fanny&Freddy&Ginny debacles came due.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 07:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
LOL..
You didn't read the article.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the folks who make $350,000 a year got a cut of only about 12.5 percent; those who make $1 million a year got an even smaller cut.


Paying a larger share of the total is NOT the same thing as paying MORE.

If someone pays $900 and another person pays $100 and they both get a CUT so one now pays $850 and the other pays $50. The first pays a larger share of the total but they still got a cut. There was no INCREASE in tax payments.

You shouldn't accuse others of not reading an article Fox when you don't have a clue what the article really said.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 08:41 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
If someone pays $900 and another person pays $100 and they both get a CUT so one now pays $850 and the other pays $50. The first pays a larger share of the total but they still got a cut. There was no INCREASE in tax payments.

There was an increase in total federal revenue during the period Foxfyre was discussing (i.e., 2003 to 2008).

ROUNDED OFF FEDERAL ESTIMATED TOTAL REVENUE IN TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf
TABLE 1.1 SUMMARY OF BUDGET RECEIPTS ETC.

2003 = 1.783
2004 = 1.880
2005 = 2.154
2006 = 2.407
2007 = 2.540
2008 = 2.662

So somebody had to be paying more as Foxfyre already pointed out.

There are at least three different illustrative tax paying models:
(1) $900 & $100 = $1,000; (before tax rate reduced)
(2) $850 & $50 = $900; (after tax rate reduced)
(3) $850 & $50 + $100 & 5.88 = $1,005.88 (after tax rate reduced)

In other words, those who hadn't previously paid their full amount due, did finally pay it after the tax rate was reduced. Consequently, some folks--probably the wealthier--were paying more after Bush's tax cut.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 08:50 pm
@ican711nm,
Inflation + population growth = GDP which nearly always increases.

Small increases in GDP do not represent large growth of economy.

Quote:


In other words, those who hadn't previously paid their full amount due, did finally pay it after the tax rate was reduced. Consequently, some folks--probably the wealthier--were paying more after Bush's tax cut.


This is purely ridiculous. Tax cheats fessing up once Bush lowers the rates? That's hardly support for your cause.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 09:05 pm
It is approaching half of all Americans pay absolutely no income tax whatsoever, 30 some percent of tax filers, in fact a large number receive more money than they even pay in, due to the earned income tax credits, etc. When Obama talks about tax cuts to low income, he is lying, you can't cut taxes when there is none, he is talking about handing out more money. The following graphs are revealing. And to be fair, so was McCain, and so has Bush. The percentage of people paying no tax has risen from around 20% to around 40% and higher to be. I think the graph posted only shows percentage of tax filers, but actual percentage is probably higher, I read about 40% now?

For what its worth, the mantra about Bush tax cuts all for the rich, no, look at how the percentage of tax filers paying no tax grew substantially under Bush.

http://www.scsuscholars.com/2008/10/graphs-of-day-share-of-income-tax.html

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-AT321_TAXES0_NS_20081020192823.gif
http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/Fiscal%20Facts/ff146figure1.jpg
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 09:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, you appear confused.

This discussion did not address the causes and effects of changes in GDP. It addressed the causes and effects of changes in individual income tax payments and total federal tax receipts.

GDP did increase throughout the period of interest, 2003 to 2008, and that is more probably the cause of why individuals who were taxed at lower rates ended up paying more taxes: that is, because their incomes increased. In fashioning my simplistic and illustrative model (3), I, for the sake of simplicity speculated on what could cause an increase in total tax revenue if incomes remained constant.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2009 09:20 pm
@ican711nm,
For somebody like me, a few percentage points diffence in tax rates won't appreciably change the way I handle my money because the difference in taxes between doing it one way and doing it another is usually at most a few hundred dollars. But lower the rates, I will likely then have that few hundred extra dollars to spend which does benefit the overall economy when I spend it.

When you're dealing with people who have large amounts of cash to manage, a few percentage points in taxes can make a difference of tens of thousands of dollars or more and can make it profitable to pull cash out of low yield tax shelters and re-invest it even though that results in taxable income. And, for reasons already enumerated, both the reinvestments and the increased cash flow to the treasury benefit everybody.

And THAT is how a well structured reduction in tax rates changes behavior that results in the rich paying more in taxes. Raise the rates so that it is unprofitable for the rich to keep their money assessible to the tax man and it goes right back into tax shelters and non-liquid investments where it benefits nobody.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.12 seconds on 06/10/2025 at 03:12:23