AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

Genoves wrote:




One doesn’t have to be clarvoyant to understand what you meant, genoves…all one has to do is have a functioning brain.




Who really gives a rat's ass if Affirmative Action is “corrupt and self-defeating.” You are supposed to be offering “proof” that Affirmative Action is a pipe dream.”



Okay…so the first lesson is that there is at least one black American who thinks Affirmative Action is demoralizing.

Wow! Very interesting.



Well, genoves, it was a piece of ****. I hope the second lesson is dramatically better. I have a problem with one of my ribs right now and if I laugh too hard, it makes it hurt all the more.

TO THE PEOPLE LISTENING IN:

Is this guy just yanking my leg...or is he really this out of it???

Frank, you sound like a decent guy. Some of my comments are to pull your chain, but seriously, anyone that claims to be neutral, or non conservative / non liberal, I am suspicious of. If you stand for nothing, you fall for anything. A bystander becomes guilty when you watch wrong taking place and choose to do nothing.

Great men are usually men of faith. When I say men, some of the greatest men of history were women. Sure, nobody knows everything, but to believe nothing is also taking a grand leap of faith into nothingness. I choose to believe a God created all of this. Without that, we become a dupe for almost anything that comes down the pike, if we fall for it. And it sounds like you've fallen for the Obama craze, a man that has done nothing of note so far, but now gets to play with our country to institute who knows what?

I have my own theories there, but will reserve them due to my conviction that none of us are qualified to judge the motive or mind of another. Especially in a forum like this, unless we know the person in real life which gives us more information to better read between the lines, we are limited to what people actually say here and what their words say to us.

I find myself in rare agreement with the right when it comes to affirmative action. This action evolved to the point that it gave preferential treatment to minorities and women, which is reverse discrimination and very wrong. Thankfully, the courts in recent years have been knocking down affirmative action.

Okie, you wrote:

Thank you...and by now, you should be able to see that 99.44% of the time, I am just breaking balls. (I'm a golfer...it's a habit!)

You sound like a decent person yourself, so please don't take anything I say too seriously, because almost always I am looking for the reaction...so the fun can go on.


Anyway...on your other point:

Okie...I am suspicious of the motives of conservatives...I am suspicious of the motives of liberals...and I am even suspicious of the motives of the dead heads in the middle.

That is why I repond to questions about my political affiliations with: I am a registered Independent...and on a continuum with extreme conservative at 1 and extreme liberal at 10...I can be found at position "p."

I want to make my own decisions...and I don't want an ideology strapped on my back. I take lots of time to study the issues facing humanity...and I try to come away with decision that...I...feel comfortable with, with absolutely no tip of the hat to any ideology at all.

That should not make you uncomfortable or suspicious of me.

And if I may, allow me to recommend it highly for adoption.

Now, on the theory of affirmative action:

Our country in the past has oppressed, discriminated against, and unethically compartmentalized and denied unalienable rights to certain people based on race and/or gender. I believe all honest liberals and all honest conservatives agree on that.

Now--agree or disagree, my opinion only regarding affirmative action--with appreciation that these are general terms and that lines between them can be blurred from time to time--I see American ideologies to have evolved as follows:

1. Extreme liberals see the black man or the woman or a few other groups as permanently wounded by our history and therefore disabled. Affirmative Action is necessary to repair their disability. The liberal extremist can be good hearted but nevertheless racist because s/he sees certain groups as unable to help themselves at all and therefore inferior to other groups.

2. Mainstream liberals believe racism still exists to the extent that people are still discriminated against and/or disadvantaged and affirmative action is necessary to get them over that hurdle. They frequently advocate lowering standards for disadvantaged groups in order to 'level the playing field' for everybody. The mainstream liberal can be good hearted but nevertheless racist because s/he sees certain groups as incapable of improving their lot in life without government (i.e. the liberals') assistance and forcing others to help them and/or accommodate them according to 'liberal' rules.

(Groups 1 and 2 here approve of gerrymandering voting districts based on race to allow certain groups representation of their own race.)

3. Hardcore old fashioned conservatives believe people have the right of association. While public services should be open and available to everybody without consideration of race, gender, etc., nobody should be forced to hire or rent to or sell to anybody they do not want to associate with. These people may or may not be racist, but think the government and society should not punish people for being discriminatory in their private lives if they choose to be so.

(Group 3 approves of gerrymandering voting districts based on political ideology to ensure representation of their political party.)

4. Modern American Conservatives believe that the war against organized racism has been fought and won at a very high cost in blood and treasure and that there are no longer any artificial barriers to prevent anybody from being all he or she has the ability to be. Believing that there are no inate barriers preventing that, we perpetuate racism by assuming that a person is incapable of helping himself/herself with my help or the government's help or whatever. MACs believe that all persons should strive for excellence and lowering standards to accommodate the 'disadvantaged' only diminishes us all and encourages persons to be less than they otherwise would choose to be. It is time for the groups who once were disadvantaged to take advantage of the opportunities they now have, and it is time to stop compartmentalizing people based on race, gender, etc. which feeds racism and keeps it alive in the national psyche. Affirmative Action was once necessary to break down cultural taboos, but that has now been accomplished and, except in very limited circumstances, is no longer necessary.

(MACs can accept very limited affirmative action for economic reasons--providing incentives for corporations to relocate in or offer work in oppressed areas for instance--but otherwise believe it now diminishes people to assume that they need affirmative action in order to accomplish themselves. They disapprove of gerrymandering voting districts for any reason.)

In my opinion, if we generally agree on these four broad groups, the Modern American Conservative--the ideology, not necessarily the individual--is the only group who is non racist these days. MACs believe to separate people into groups needing different accommodation in government, business, society etc. perpetuates racism and keeps it alive. Affirmative Action is one way that we continue to perpetuate racism.

genoves has a habit of calling all those he disagrees with "ignorant."

He also makes statements as conclusions. Who's ignorant here? LOL

What a crock of horse ****. Truly. I can't believe you could even write such a thing with a straight face.

Tell me, why is it that the Republican party is 98% white, if it's not racist in some way? Is it just coincidence? I doubt it.

Cycloptichorn

He's really "this out of it." He makes statements he can't support. He can't see his own weakness when he postulates his opinions as a given.

So it is your opinion that if a group is mostly white, it is automatically racist. Okay. Noted. Of course that doesn't make you bigoted or prejudiced at all.

But which group are you going to join? The one who treats you like everybody else or the one who hands out or promises all sorts of free goodies because you're not white? The one who robs Peter to pay Paul will usually have the support of Paul.

Also, if you have been told all your life that Republicans don't care about you and Democrats do, and you have never had opportunity to see it differently, what are you most likely to believe?

Mostly? Try 'nearly 100%.' And when that group purportedly exists to support and represent a group of people in government, yeah; you can draw certain inferences from it.

If this was some stupid knitting circle or something, it wouldn't matter. But it's supposed to be representatitve and it is not.

Cycloptichorn

I want to comment on one section of your presentation…which in my opinion, except for this item, is pretty good.



What it appears you are doing here is a form of “proposing a false choice.”

Either you consider people able to improve their lot in life without government (and disavow Affirmative Action)…or you consider them unable to do so (and advocate Affirmative Action.)

That is a very self-serving way of looking at the problem, Foxfyre. Let's see if I can make that point.

First, the usual disclaimer: I am not a liberal…hard core or moderate.

I do not consider “certain groups” to be incapable of improving their lot in life without government assistance…but I certainly see the benefit…and the justices…in government providing the assistance anyway.

Just because an elderly person can make his/her way up a flight of stairs…does not mean it is inappropriate or unwarranted to offer a hand-rail for their assistance. Just because an elderly person can make his/her way across a busy street without any assistance…does not mean it is inappropriate or unwarranted to offer an arm to aid in the crossing.

So this contruct, the way you presented it, Foxfyre, is slanted toward the conservative pesrspective.

In fact…it is this sort of thing that I see conservatives tend to do in real life…that is a motivator for me to approve of some Affirmative Action!

Mr. Apisa. It is now your opportunity to show why and how Shelby Steele is incorrect. Can you do so? I am very much afraid that the classification of his comments as " a piece of ****" would earn you minus points in a debate.

You may, I hope, have better luck with another of Mr. Steele's comments.

And, please, sir, no "piece of ****" rejoinders. Try to show where he is wrong.

quote

:Affirmative Action is problematic in our society because we have demanded that it create parity between the races rather than insure equal opportunity.
Preferential treatment does not teach skills, or educate, or instill motivation. It only passes out entitlement by color, a situation that in my profession( he is a college professor) has created an unrealistically high demand for black professors, The social engineer's assumption is that the high demand will inspire more blacks to earn PHD's and join the profession. Infact, the number of blacks earning PHD's has declined in recent years. PhD's must be developed from preschool on. THEY REQUIRE FAMILY AND COMMUNITY SUPPORT, THEY MUST ACQUIRE AN ENTIRE SYSTEM OF VALUES THAT ENABLES THEM TO WORK HARD WHILE DELAYING GRATIFICATION"

Mr. Apisa--There is a group which has arrived in the USA in the last thirty or forty years. They are Vietnamese. Do you know that the Phi Beta Kappa lists are filled with Vietnamese names? Most of these people arrived in poverty escaping the murderous Viet Cong. They usually don't have a great deal of money but they do have FAMILY AND COMMUNITY SUPPORT AND A SYSTEM OF VALUES THAT STRESS HARD WORK AND DELAY OF GRATIFICATION.

Why don't you provide your own argument for why the definitions are wrong, Cyclop instead of perpetuating your own bigotry?

Try this website on for size:
http://www.nbra.info/

Once again on this "appeal of American conservatism to racists” thing, Foxfyre…allow me this.

Surely you have got to wonder why the conservative agenda…and the Republican Party is so popular among whites in the American South.

Given the history of that region with regard to racial tendencies…given its recent history…why is it that whites in southers American states vote Republican…and hold themselves out to be conservatives"by ratios of 85% or more?

And keep in mind…this is a fairly recent change in the southern states political dynamics.

Before Johnson backed and signed the Equal Rights legislation…the south was predominantly Democratic. The so-called “southern strategy” of Richard Nixon played on that quite openly.

How do you account for the overwhelming appeal of the conservative agenda among whites in rural southern states…if it is not racially motivated?

Once again, I have no dog in this fight. If American conservatism does not fix itself…no skin off my nose. In fact, my personal opinion is that America is much, much better off with its conservative element as much in the minority as possible…playing the loyal opposition rather than the leader.

But it is an important thing for you…and I cannot fathom why you are giving this item…which I personally see as glaring and the pivotal one for my refusal to even consider adopting American conservatism as a personal political philosophy"such short shrift.

Why? How can a benefit based on race or anything else not single out a group as 'different'? If your 'benefit' applies to Citizen A but not to Citizen B, are you not making a statement that Citizen B is superior to Citizen A or that Citizen A is less capable?



I believe Modern American Conservatism to be to the advantage of and in the best interest of everybody so of course that will color my perspective. I could just as easily say that your perspective (and desire to support your opinion of conservatives as racist) also colors your perception.

But why just an elderly person who could benefit from some assistance? Why not provide a hand rail as a safety device for everybody and/or assist anybody who might benefit from it? Why single out the elderly? Or the black man?




So, because you see conservatives as racist, this is your argument for affirmative action? You don't care if that same affirmative action has a delilitating effect on the very people it is supposed to help?

Frank, You paint too obvious a picture with that huge brush of yours. People like Foxie will ever admit nor "see" those things so obvious to people with an open mind.

I don't want to tell you that he is wrong.

I am just going to point out that he is one person.

So...my comment that all you have done to prove that Affirmative Action is a pipe dream...

...if to quote one American's opinon.

That is a piece of ****!

Get on to your "proof!"

Sorry, but I refuse to buy into your frame, Foxy. It was American Conservatives - in both parties - who fought tooth and nail to prevent AA's from enjoying equal rights. Conservatives who fought against Women having the right to vote, against inter-racial marriage, who now fight against gays enjoying equal rights. Conservatives who fight against education and assisting the poor. There's just not a lot of belief that people are equal and deserve equal rights on the Conservative side of American politics.

The proof is in the pudding, Fox. You can go on and on about how Conservatives aren't prejudiced against non-white, non-rich, non-males; but the actions of Conservatives have been to consistently limit the rights and opportunities of these groups. How do you square this in your mind?

Cycloptichorn