AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

Frank Apisa wrote:

Once again on this "appeal of American conservatism to racists” thing, Foxfyre…allow me this.

Surely you have got to wonder why the conservative agenda…and the Republican Party is so popular among whites in the American South.

Given the history of that region with regard to racial tendencies…given its recent history…why is it that whites in southers American states vote Republican…and hold themselves out to be conservatives"by ratios of 85% or more?

And keep in mind…this is a fairly recent change in the southern states political dynamics.

Frank, I grew up in the south and I have lived in the north. Racism exists in both places and, in fact, I observed more racism in the so-called 'liberal' strongholds than anything that I see in the south today. I think southerners now adopt conservatism more as I have described modern American conservatives. To assume that they are Republican because they are 'white' or because they are bigots sounds very much like an irrational prejudiced or bigoted attitude to me.

How is your compartmentalizing Republicans as racist based on your anecdotal experience any different than a southerner feeling negative toward black people because of his own very real and unpleasant experience with some black people?

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Before Johnson backed and signed the Equal Rights legislation…the south was predominantly Democratic. The so-called “southern strategy” of Richard Nixon played on that quite openly.

How do you account for the overwhelming appeal of the conservative agenda among whites in rural southern states…if it is not racially motivated?

Remember that Johnson would never have gotten civil rights/equal rights passed without support of a majority of Republicans.

And again to assume that appeal of the conservative agenda among southern whites is racially motivated is irrational and unsupportable in the extreme. Even moreso if you spend a lot of time in the south and witness more racial harmony there than you find in most big northern cities.

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Once again, I have no dog in this fight. If American conservatism does not fix itself…no skin off my nose. In fact, my personal opinion is that America is much, much better off with its conservative element as much in the minority as possible…playing the loyal opposition rather than the leader.

But it is an important thing for you…and I cannot fathom why you are giving this item…which I personally see as glaring and the pivotal one for my refusal to even consider adopting American conservatism as a personal political philosophy"such short shrift.

Would you be giving it 'short shrift' if I was arguing that it is not the Republican party but rather the Democratic party that is the racist party? I don't see it as any less racist or any more commendable to buy votes and power at the expense of people of a particular race. But again, if you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul.

Try this history test from that "Black Republicans" site Cyclop:

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYK-HistoryTest&tp_preview=true

Thanks for your response, Foxfyre. I can see there is no chance we will ever have agreement on this.

However, since I am of the opinion that the very best thing that can happen to America is for the American conservative agenda to prevail as little as possible…to appeal to as few as possible…and for American conservatives to be as much a minority as possible…

…I think the best thing to do, Foxfyre, is to hope that you and the other American conservatives who are setting its agenda…continue right down the path you are taking.

No insult meant here. I mean that!

But I honestly see American conservatism to be a destructive, negative force for our country…and the less influence it exerts, the better for all of us.

I think your thoughts on race and things like affirmative action…serves my purposes much, much better than my thoughts…

…so from this point forward, I am going to be encouraging you to head in that direction. It really ends up being the ONLY reasonable course open to me.

I hope all the other folks who have been arguing the way I have…do that same thing.

You are right, Foxfyre…the conservative agenda does not need to make radical adjustments in its policies…should completely disregard any implications of the huge white southern state loyalties…and do its level best to gut any and all affirmative action.

I think that is the way you will best widen your appeal among grassroots America.

Foxfyre wrote:

Try this history test from that "Black Republicans" site Cyclop:

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYK-HistoryTest&tp_preview=true

Why don't you just respond to my post instead of trying to change the subject?

Cycloptichorn

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Try this history test from that "Black Republicans" site Cyclop:

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYK-HistoryTest&tp_preview=true

Why don't you just respond to my post instead of trying to change the subject?

Cycloptichorn

That does respond to your post. I choose to think it rather immature and stupid to try to have a discussion with somebody who has nothing more substantive to offer than something is a crock of ****. Okay?

It is also interesting to me that the focus has now turned on bashing me and accusing me of all sorts of things, while not one of the liberals posting here has addressed or attempted to argue re the points on affirmative action that I made. It's like liberals think accusing Republicans or all large groups of white people of racism is a sufficient to justify affirmative action no matter how destructive that might be to the people affirmative action was supposed to help.

Foxfyre wrote:

Why don't you provide your own argument for why the definitions are wrong, Cyclop instead of perpetuating your own bigotry?

Try this website on for size:
http://www.nbra.info/

Sorry, but I refuse to buy into your frame, Foxy. It was American Conservatives - in both parties - who fought tooth and nail to prevent AA's from enjoying equal rights. Conservatives who fought against Women having the right to vote, against inter-racial marriage, who now fight against gays enjoying equal rights. Conservatives who fight against education and assisting the poor. There's just not a lot of belief that people are equal and deserve equal rights on the Conservative side of American politics.

The proof is in the pudding, Fox. You can go on and on about how Conservatives aren't prejudiced against non-white, non-rich, non-males; but the actions of Conservatives have been to consistently limit the rights and opportunities of these groups. How do you square this in your mind?

Cycloptichorn

I thought we were bashing Republicans though, not conservatives, and that history test I referred you to did absolutely 100% address your accusations there. You will continue to be insulting and making prejudicial assumptions that you can't defend, and I just don't want to play that game. Unless you acknowledge that your definition of conservatism and my definition of Modern American Conservatism or two separate things, we have nothing to discuss Cyclop. Do have a great day though.

(P.S. to use numbers/majority to condemn somebody is as unsupportable as to use numbers/minority to dismiss somebody. Could we say that a majority of black people want to be fed, clothed, and supported on the public dole because a majority of black people are Democrats? Or would you say that is a racist and unsupportable statement? (I would)

So now look at your own prejudices re Republicans and white people. The same principle applies.)