55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 08:17 pm
@ican711nm,
Under the constitution, it does not.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 10:43 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
If you feel comfortable equating the kind of things liberals do to give a hand up to less fortunate (white or black)...with the kind of **** coming from some of our country's white supremacists...even unto lynchings of blacks for the crime of being black...do so.


First off, I am in NO WAY trying to equate the two.
The actions of the white supremacists are despicable and are no way excuseable or defensible.
If you thought I was trying to equate the two, or if I said anything to give you that impression, I apologize.

BUT, not all racism takes the form of violence or hate.
It exists wherever you give one group preference or assistance on the grounds that they need the help.
It exists anywhere you say or insinuate that any group cant make it on their own, that they need govt help or special consideration to make anything of themselves.


No disrespect MM, but I think it's funny watching you define racism. I've seen this before with others. They can't truly empathize with real racism so they redefine it such that it includes experiences they have had.

Racism does not always take the form of violence, but always the form of hate. Your notions on AA are forged with a hammer that has never had to strike the hard steal reality of the real racism that exists in this world. You may not like programs like AA. You may not view them as being fair, but AA is only one gear in a large system. If you think the playing field is level without it, you're naive.

T
K
O
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 12:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone imposter, it is getting increasingly difficult for me to believe that you actually believe your own malarky. There was "a threat posed by Iraq against the US or Americans." That threat was the rapidly growing al-Qaeda in Iraq.
Quote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
[10th]Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

[11 th]Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;


Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 09/08/2006, wrote:

Congressional Intelligence Report 09/08/2006
Postwar information indicates that the Intelligence Community accurately assessed that al-Qa'ida affiliate group Ansar al-Islam operated in Kurdish-controlled northeastern Iraq

Wikipedia wrote:

Ansar-al-Islam
Ansar al-Islam was formed in December 2001.
...
Ansar al-Islam comprised about 300 armed men, many of these veterans from the Afghan war, and a proportion being neither Kurd nor Arab. Ansar al-Islam is alleged to be connected to al-Qaeda, and provided an entry point for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other Afghan veterans to enter Iraq.

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 01:27 pm
@parados,
The following constitutes a legal declaration of war by Congress against Iraq.
Quote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002
Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Sec. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION--The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate to--
(1) defend the security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.--In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force
...

The powers granted by the Constitution to Congress relevant to what was done by the federal government to defend the country against additional terrorist attacks follow.
Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html
The Constitution of the United States of America
ARTICLE I.
Section 8. The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises,
To pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
…
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
...
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 9.
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

Amendments IV and V also indicate that what was done by the federal government to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States against terrorists was legal.
Quote:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
Amendment IV.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 01:59 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The following constitutes a legal declaration of war by Congress against Iraq....


Might be in your opinion.
But generally, "a declaration of war is a formal performative speech act or signing of a document by an authorised party of a government in order to initiate a state of war between two or more nations".
Source: wikipedia

Or, to use one of your own favourite sources:

Quote:
Main Entry: declaration of war Pronunciation Guide
: a formal announcement by a sovereign or state of the beginning of hostilities against another

Source: "declaration of war." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (22 Jan. 2009).

That's they way how it's done since centuries ... and regulated again in modern times in the various Hague Conventions (here the one of 1907).
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:10 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
No disrespect MM, but I think it's funny watching you define racism. I've seen this before with others. They can't truly empathize with real racism so they redefine it such that it includes experiences they have had.


Everyone that has not experienced real racism is guiilty of that, including yourself.
So dont try and claim that I'm the only one doing it.
I freely admit it.


Quote:
Racism does not always take the form of violence, but always the form of hate.


Does it really?
If I choose not to sit next to someone, irregardless of their skin color, is that hate?
If I choose not to rent an apartment to you because you dont have the money, is that hate?
If I choose to create an organization that promotes one group over any others, is that hate?
If I choose to accuse someone of a horrible crime because they are a different color than I am, is that hate?

ALL of these are examples of racism, but I wouldnt say that they are all examples of hate.
Would you?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:14 pm
@mysteryman,
mm wrote:
Quote:
Everyone that has not experienced real racism is guiilty of that, including yourself.


ROFL

Some people "never" get it.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You take one sentence, out of context, and try to attack me for that?

Even you can do better then that.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:21 pm
@mysteryman,
That is the joke; nothing has been taken out of context.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
When you refuse to include what I was responding to, you have taken my words out of context.

But you know that, and would never tolerate it if that was done to your comments.
Why do you find it acceptable to do it to others?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:38 pm
@mysteryman,
You were responding to Diest; I know him personally.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 05:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I didnt say you left out WHO I was responding to, I said you intentionally left out WHAT I was responding to.
You purposely left out the exact sentence and statement I was responding to.

Stop pretending to be funny, you arent.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 06:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, this was a formal declaration of war against Iraq by the Congress of the United States. Congress chose to leave to the President's complete disgression if, when and how to attack Iraq. The President decided to attack Iraq March 20, 2003, a little over 5 months after Congress adopted this resolution.

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002

Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Sec. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION--The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate to--
(1) defend the security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION."In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 08:33 pm
@ican711nm,
ican forgot that Bush said "the use of our military will be our last resort."
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 09:29 pm
@parados,
ican711nm wrote:
The following constitutes a declaration of war by Congress against Iraq.
Congress wrote:
Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002 [...]

ican711nm wrote:
Under the constitution, it does not.

As much as it pains me to say this, I'm pretty sure that by the Supreme Court's precedents, Ican is closer to the truth here than Parados is. Wars don't have to be formally declared to establish, at least for domestic purposes, that the United States is in a state of war. And as part of deciding the Guantanamo detainee cases, the Supreme Court has decided that the authorizations of power for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan do establish a state of war. To the best of my memory, the liberal and the conservative Supreme Court justices agreed on this point.

So even if the "authorizations of force" aren't formally declarations of war, they are as good as them for all practical purposes.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:


I am merely reporting to you that there are people I know who exhibit racist attitudes…and to a man, every one of them defines himself (they all are men) as a conservative.

And there are people I know that exhibit racist attitudes that define themselves as liberal. Proving what?

In fact, the entire Democratic Party is a coalition of constituencies based upon dividing people into groups. Their vision of America is based upon groupology, all of them with some kind of axe to grind. Conservative philosophy is based upon the rights, freedoms, and responsibilities of individuals, which are what the constitution supports and proclaims, and frankly count me one that is tired of the Democrats pitting one group against another.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:40 pm
@okie,
okie, Your interpretation of the Constitution is very interesting. You said
Quote:
"...which are what the constitution supports and proclaims, and frankly count me one that is tired of the Democrats pitting one group against another."


Since when did you become the official interpreter of our Constitution? Are you telling us that the country just voted in a democratic president who will "pit one group against another?"

And President Bush who said "I'm a uniter, not a divider," fits with your interpretation of our Constitution?

ROFL
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:51 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
No disrespect MM, but I think it's funny watching you define racism. I've seen this before with others. They can't truly empathize with real racism so they redefine it such that it includes experiences they have had.


Everyone that has not experienced real racism is guiilty of that, including yourself.
So dont try and claim that I'm the only one doing it.
I freely admit it.

I'm not sure how this includes me. I've faced the real racism; the kind that does take a creative imagination to qualify for.
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Racism does not always take the form of violence, but always the form of hate.


Does it really?

I didn't st-t-t-t-t-udder.
mysteryman wrote:

If I choose not to sit next to someone, irregardless of their skin color, is that hate?

If it's regardless of skin color, it really isn't racism is it now?...
mysteryman wrote:

If I choose not to rent an apartment to you because you dont have the money, is that hate?

Nope. Not hate. Not racism either. Unrelated, in fact.
mysteryman wrote:

If I choose to create an organization that promotes one group over any others, is that hate?

Like Churches? Unless you mean to say that groups can't form around any specific interest or belief as well, what's your point? A group that band together to promote Hispanics or Vietnamese is inherently racist? No sir. A group is racist when it seeks to put other races down, not promote one. Same goes for bigotry and beliefs. I don't think a church is hateful for promoting itself and it's message. They are hateful in my book the second they seek to put down other beliefs or non-believers.
mysteryman wrote:

If I choose to accuse someone of a horrible crime because they are a different color than I am, is that hate?

Absolutely. Your wording specifically says it all. You would be choosing them "because they are a different color" instead of real deductive reasoning.
mysteryman wrote:

ALL of these are examples of racism, but I wouldnt say that they are all examples of hate.
Would you?

As illustrated above, you haven't even read the contents page on the book of racism.

T
K
O
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 10:57 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Conservative philosophy is based upon the rights,

that you can take away from others...
okie wrote:
freedoms,

for me, and for you if I think your worthy...
okie wrote:
and responsibilities of individuals,

unless it's inconvenient...
okie wrote:
which are what the constitution supports and proclaims,

but you don't really have to follow if it's tough...
okie wrote:
and frankly count me one that is tired of the Democrats pitting one group against another.

because republicans never cater to the fears of Christians...

T
K
O
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jan, 2009 11:13 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest, I hate to puncture your unrealistic world, but were the founders afraid of the fears held by themselves?
 

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