55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 03:56 pm
Fox - I think Frank is simply saying you choose your ranks, and while you identify as a conservative, so do all these racist bigots.

to the original post, I think the relevance of this is that modern American conservatism (can we start abbreviating this... MAC) has both and internal and external dilemmas.

Externally, it struggles to show itself to be truly beneficial to a wide range of people. Conservatism might actually be pretty functional in a more homogeneous culture, but that just isn't the USA. So instead of trying to reach out to a wide audience, it instead caters to only a limited group.

Internally, it struggles because it (like all ideologies) is defined/identified by it's composition. When the roster is littered with the worst of bigots, it's not simply implied that the group is bigot friendly, it's the truth. Not all conservatives are bigots, but somehow both feel their agendas are best met with the Republicans.

As for what label I'd give you, I've decided you're a Republican who wishes they were a Conservative. Given your stances during the election etc, I've seen you have a greater preference for winning over principle. If you really believed in all this MAC stuff, you'd be voting for a independent candidate that you believed in, not McCain. You're not alone though, there are plenty of people like you... and the Republicans love you for it.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 04:10 pm
@Diest TKO,
TKO, when you can frame a comment without drawing erroneous and stupid conclusions about what I have done or should have done, I will respond. Until then, I am really bored with your posts and know from growing experience that it is futile to respond to them. Please understand.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 04:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
See you're still insisting on defining conservatism as being guilty of or perpetuating racism. I don't.


I am NOT doing that at all, Foxfyre.

I am merely reporting to you that there are people I know who exhibit racist attitudes…and to a man, every one of them defines himself (they all are men) as a conservative.

I am NOT defining conservatism at all…not in any way.

I am saying that the people I know who are racists (or at least who exhibit racist attitudes) all consider themselves Republicans…and loyal American conservatives.

I might also say that the racism that I am speaking of here…is not a benign kind of racism. It is the kind that often gets quite ugly in its rhetoric. And it extends itself in lots of different directions. New immigrants to America…Asian Indians, Koreans, and Chinese…get lots of mention from these folks…and they certainly fair no better with these people than do blacks or Latinos.

I want to be real clear with you, Foxfyre, so we don’t have to go over this for a fourth time. I am not definig conservatism here. I am merely telling you, honestly, that I know several very racist individuals…and that they all identify themselves as American conservatives. By the way, even their identification with American conservatism is not benign. It is something they often find ways to bring into the conversation…something they brag about.

I also am noting that American conservatism has a huge appeal in the American South…and the American South has a history of being quite racist.

This really is a problem. The Republican party and American conservatism have become a home to the bigots of our country. Conservatives like you may not intend that to be the case…and in fact, may deplore the fact that it is so…but, Foxfyre, IT IS SO!

I can tell you this. Not a single one of the guys I have in mind here ever has identified himself as a liberal…and I would feel safer calling one of them a child molester than I would calling them a Democrat or a liberal.


Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 04:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I specifically did ask you to provide your own definition for 'modern American conservatism' however, and you refused the request as has every other member here who objects to my definition. You provided dictionary definitions for the term 'conservative'

I said the dictionary definition works well for me. I think that made it pretty clear that the dictionary definition is my definition.

Foxfyre wrote:
with no consideration that what I see as modern American conservatism does not fit into those definitions.

Now you're getting absurd. First you ask me for for my definition of conservatism.Then I give you my definition of conservatism, and you complain that I wasn't giving you your definition of conservatism. What do you expect? Of course I won't!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 04:40 pm
I'm sorry if I mischaracterized you, Frank, as I really do try to not do that to people, but even in this post where you deny it, are you not seeing Republicans and conservatives as being the party/ideology that perpetuates racism and bigotry?

Of course I know that there are conservatives and Republicans who are racist. And if you're honest, you know that there are liberals and Democrats who are racist. (I did notice you dodged my question about that. Smile)

All I am saying is that it has not been my experience that the people I think emulate modern American conservatism in my real life experience or on A2K are racist or bigots in any sense. On A2K I am thinking of members like Ican, Okie, Fedral, GeorgeOb1, Asherman, CoastalRat, FinnAbuzz, McGentrix, Ticomaya, and no doubt several others that aren't surfacing in my mind right now. I have seen all of these state principles/beliefs/opinions that I relate to modern American conservatism, but I have never seen a post from any one of them that I would say was bigoted or racist in any way.

Your friends you describe as conservative maybe would have little in common with the folks in my life that I describe as conservative?

I know a difference in experience does tend to color ones perceptions though.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
I'm sorry if I mischaracterized you, Frank, as I really do try to not do that to people, but even in this post where you deny it, are you not seeing Republicans and conservatives as being the party/ideology that perpetuates racism and bigotry?


I don't think you are mischaracterizing me...or at least, not mischaracterizing me with suspect motives...I just think the communication between us on this issue has not yet gotten completely clear.

What I am saying…and have said several times now …is that the people I know who have racist characteristics…all identify themselves as Republicans…and as conservatives.

I am not entirely sure why Republicanism and conservatism appeals so much to the bigots that I personally know…but I suspect it is the same thing that cause so many rural southerners to find appeal there.

And I might point out to you that at one time, the South was almost solidly Democratic…and it swung over to the Republicans as a backlash to Johnson signing equal rights bills.

Let me reiterate one thing: I most assuredly am not saying or inferring that ALL REPUBLICANS OR ALL CONSERVATIVES are bigots. THEY MOST ASSUREDLY ARE NOT!

But if you are suggesting that American conservatism does not appeal GREATLY to the racists in our midst...I think you are incorrect!

Quote:

Of course I know that there are conservatives and Republicans who are racist. And if you're honest, you know that there are liberals and Democrats who are racist. (I did notice you dodged my question about that. )


Not sure what question that way, but please point it out to me and I promise I will respond. I did mention that of the people I know who exhibit racist tendencies…none identifies himself as as a democrat or a liberal. I was very emphatic about that.

But point out the question…and I will repond directly.

Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:14 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

TKO, when you can frame a comment without drawing erroneous and stupid conclusions about what I have done or should have done, I will respond. Until then, I am really bored with your posts and know from growing experience that it is futile to respond to them. Please understand.

Whatever Fox. I was trying to keep you company in your sandbox. I have better things to do with my A2K time than compose posts for you to conveniently ignore. You don't want others input in here, you want to stand at the podium and lecture.

You can't handle the attacks of real foes so you choose to shadowbox scarecrow arguments.

You ask. I answered. You reject my answer. I don't give a damn. I still complied just as you asked. It is your failure, not mine, to accept.

You don't want to respond to my posts? Fine. However, it won't be because I failed in some way to meet you fair and square in the intellectual marketplace.

T
Keep whining.
O
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:28 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I think you have forgotten something.
You claim that most of the people you know that are bigots or racists identify themselves as either repub or conservative, and that you dont know any that identify themselves as either liberal or democrat.

Yet, lets look at this past election.
When Obama was fairly criticized about his lack of experience, it was called a racist attack.

Quote:
Bill Clinton got hit hard when he called Mr. Obama's claims to be a long-standing opponent of the Iraq war "the biggest fairy tale I've ever seen." The former president accurately said that there was no difference in actual Senate votes on the war between his wife and Mr. Obama. But his comments were not treated by the press as legitimate, hard-ball political fighting. They were cast as possibly racist.


It has been the left that has for years demanded that things like affirmative action be implemented, to insure that minorities recieved "fair treatment" and the chance to move up in life.
The insinuation is that blacks and other minorities cannot make it without govt help, that they are helpless on their own.
To me, that sure is a racist attitude.
So to say that dems or liberals are not racist is to cast a blind eye to many of the things they have done over the years, all in the guise of "helping".

Here is an interesting read on the subject.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123249791178500439.html

Some quotes from the article.
BTW, the paragraph I quoted is also from this same piece.

Quote:
If his presidency is to represent the full power of the idea that black Americans are just like everyone else -- fully human and fully capable of intellect, courage and patriotism -- then Barack Obama has to be subject to the same rough and tumble of political criticism experienced by his predecessors. To treat the first black president as if he is a fragile flower is certain to hobble him. It is also to waste a tremendous opportunity for improving race relations by doing away with stereotypes and seeing the potential in all Americans.

Yet there is fear, especially among black people, that criticism of him or any of his failures might be twisted into evidence that people of color cannot effectively lead. That amounts to wasting time and energy reacting to hateful stereotypes. It also leads to treating all criticism of Mr. Obama, whether legitimate, wrong-headed or even mean-spirited, as racist.

This is patronizing. Worse, it carries an implicit presumption of inferiority. Every American president must be held to the highest standard. No president of any color should be given a free pass for screw-ups, lies or failure to keep a promise.


Quote:
There is a dangerous trap being set here. The same media people invested in boosting a black man to the White House as a matter of history have set very high expectations for him. When he disappoints, as presidents and other human beings inevitably do, the backlash may be extreme.

Several seasons ago, when Philadelphia Eagle's black quarterback Donovan McNabb was struggling, radio commentator Rush Limbaugh said the media wanted a black quarterback to do well and gave Mr. McNabb "a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve." Mr. Limbaugh's sin was saying out loud what others had said privately.

There is a lot more at stake now, and to allow criticism of Mr. Obama only behind closed doors does no honor to the dreams and prayers of generations past: that race be put aside, and all people be judged honestly, openly, and on the basis of their performance.

President Obama deserves no less.






Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:49 pm
@Frank Apisa,
There are several groups involved here I think so we may be unnecessarily talking past each other. These groups I describe thusly:

Liberal extremists--these are the anti-establishment, socialist, big government, cradle to grave benefits, tofu eating tree huggers who ban guns, send big checks to PETA, believe everybody will be nice to us if we are nice to them, and eat only free range chicken if they are not exclusively vegetarians. (Slight exaggeration but you get my drift.)

Modern American liberals - believe most positive change and most social ills are achieved through government action; therefore they approve of higher taxes as needed to achieve more government benefits. They tend to think that government should require the successful to take care of the needs of the poor and unsuccessful. They tend to dismiss many traditional values as outworn or wrong in favor of a morality that allows more acceptance of former cultural taboos. The dichotomy is that they are also the group who created the PC police and tend to disapprove or condemn those who violate PC. They are very class conscious but in the sense of the advantaged versus the victim.

Libertarian. These are fiscal conservatives and social liberals with various degrees of tolerance and/or extremism co-existing within the larger group. The moderates of this group tolerate more legal restrictions on human activity--it would be okay to register especially dangerous weapons for instance--while the more extreme want no restrictons on drugs, requirements for personal safety and they think the borders should be wide open with no restrictions, etc. All libertarians favor limited government, however, so even the social liberals are not the same as other liberals.

Old fashioned conservatives - tend to want to keep things just the way they were and resist seeing or doing things differently. They tend to be judgmental of those who see things differently. They tend to be class conscious but in the sense of those they consider to be more successful or responsible versus those they see as being less successful or irresponsible and they can be guilty of assigning approval or criticism to whole groups or categories of people.

Modern American Conservative
wants limited government and the power and incentive for greatness placed in the hands of the people. The function of government is to obey the letter and intent of the Constitution which basicly limits it to defense and protection of the people, secure the unalienable, legal, Constitutional, and civil rights of the people, and providing an orderly system and policies in which all people are free to be all that they can legally or ethically achieve. It is not a legitimate fumction of government to provide for the people what can be done more effectively, efficiently, and economically by the private sector.

There is more of course to all of this of course, and certain principles involved that have been posted intermittantly, but these are hastily scribbled broad definitions as I see it.
***********************************************************'

Perhaps you are seeing all conservatives as I see the 'old fashioned conservatives'? Perhaps your friends that affect your view more closely belong to that group than any other?

I think most modern American conservatives, which I believe most conservatives these days to be, became disgusted their government, including the Republican within in it for two reasons:

1) One segment of Republicanism went the old fashioned route. These were the extremist religious right who were clinging to their strong sense of morality and were indeed attempting to foist that upon others. These are different from most Christians and/or other religious who form their world view through the prism of their religious faith and express that as all citizens have the right to do, but who do not insist that others believe as they believe.
Because most Modern American Conservatives are non-religious or more mainstream in their religious beliefs, they were alienated and even offended by the more strident and hard nosed group.

2) Another segment of Republicanism went the liberal route. They spent the tax payers money to curry favor with their constituencies and without regard for fiscal responsibility and this was horrifying to Modern American Conservatives. They agreed to policies and concepts that were alien to MAC's (I like TKO's abbreviation for convenience Smile) core beliefs and the MAC's became increasingly angry.

As the MACs are a critical constituency of Republicanism, the GOP could not hold on to its majorities without the MACs. In my opinion that is why the GOP has been losing elections since 2006.

You (Frank) say that the racism within the Republican party must be repaired. I accept that this is your primary objection to the GOP.

I honestly think what racism exists within the Republican party is too limited to make any difference and no more exists within the Republican party than exists within the Democratic party. I think the other factors mentioned are of far more significance both among those who choose to call themselves Republicans and among those who won't call themselves Republicans.

I could be wrong of course. But that's how I see it.






Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 05:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Oh and Frank....all my babbling and blathering was a preface to me reposting those questions I prevously asked and MM's post ties in with that too:

Quote:
At the same time, (referring back to those relatives who use the 'n' word), I saw these same relatives go forcefully against their white neighbors who were taking up a collection to buy a house to prevent a black family from buying it. These same relatives fought alongside black soldiers in Vietnam and their grandkids more recently in Iraq, worked beside black colleagues in the workplace, and would lay down their lives before they would let a black person be intentionally harmed or mistreated and I have never heard them describe a black person as incapable or bad or anything else just because he or she was black. They don't use the 'n' word around black friends or colleagues knowing that it would not be appreciated.

So are they bigots?

On the other hand is the person who would never use the 'n' word under any circumstances but who sees black people as disadvantaged and oppressed and incapable of helping themselves a non-bigot?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:26 pm
@mysteryman,
Mysteryman...not sure what you were getting at in that last post.

I wrote:
Quote:
I did mention that of the people I know who exhibit racist tendencies…none identifies himself as as a democrat or a liberal.




I DO NOT PERSONALLY KNOW BILL CLINTON.

If you have any information on any of the people I personally know who contradict what I have said, please share it and I will be happy to apologize.


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:31 pm
@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre:
Quote:
You (Frank) say that the racism within the Republican party must be repaired. I accept that this is your primary objection to the GOP.

I honestly think what racism exists within the Republican party is too limited to make any difference and no more exists within the Republican party than exists within the Democratic party. I think the other factors mentioned are of far more significance both among those who choose to call themselves Republicans and among those who won't call themselves Republicans.

I could be wrong of course. But that's how I see it.


Well, I definitely see it as much, much more of a problem than you do…and I might be wrong.

We’ll leave it at that.

You seemed to be asking what American conservatism could do to widen its appeal…and in my opinion, the fact that so many racists find appeal in its agenda is something that will have to be corrected on that road…whether justified or not. For certain something would have to be done in that respect for me, personally, to ever consider it.

But you have a vested interest in widening the appeal of conservatism…I do not…so I think your view should carry more weight.

Treat that area as something not especially consequential--see how it plays out.




The questions:

Quote:
At the same time, (referring back to those relatives who use the 'n' word), I saw these same relatives go forcefully against their white neighbors who were taking up a collection to buy a house to prevent a black family from buying it. These same relatives fought alongside black soldiers in Vietnam and their grandkids more recently in Iraq, worked beside black colleagues in the workplace, and would lay down their lives before they would let a black person be intentionally harmed or mistreated and I have never heard them describe a black person as incapable or bad or anything else just because he or she was black. They don't use the 'n' word around black friends or colleagues knowing that it would not be appreciated.

So are they bigots?


They don’t sound like bigots to me.

But if you were in a discussion with the friends I was talking about earlier…there would be absolutely no doubt about what they are.

I might add…(you know I am outspoken)…that on occasions I have said to a couple “you are nothing but a bigot!”…to which the usual response is a variation on, “You goddam right I am and I am proud of it!”

It has been my experience that most bigots do not try to hide their bigotry...they take pride in it.

Do with that what you will. I doubt very seriously if I am unique in seeing this kind of thing.


Quote:

On the other hand is the person who would never use the 'n' word under any circumstances but who sees black people as disadvantaged and oppressed and incapable of helping themselves a non-bigot.


That last part seems to be a gratuitously offensive characterization of some liberal positioning. To characterize it as bigoted or non-bigoted would be tantamount to answering the “Do you still beat your wife?” question. So I decline to do so. Most liberals I know (while I often consider them to be chowderheads) do not come anywhere near close to what you propose here, Foxfyre.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
What I was saying is that most dems dont consider themselves racist, but when you look at their policies and actions, they ARE.
Things like affirmative action ARE racist.
They exist to allow blacks and other minorities to get an "even break" in society today.
To me, that assumes that the dems think that minorities are not capable of making it on their own, that they will only make it with govt help.
That to me is racist.

Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:40 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

What I was saying is that most dems dont consider themselves racist, but when you look at their policies and actions, they ARE.
Things like affirmative action ARE racist.
They exist to allow blacks and other minorities to get an "even break" in society today.
To me, that assumes that the dems think that minorities are not capable of making it on their own, that they will only make it with govt help.
That to me is racist.

You are telling us what democrats think MM. What source is it that you cite that democrats think as you assert and not some other rationale for AA?

What about evening the playing field? Tell me what you think the playing field looks like without said system (right now). Certainly the goal is to not have AA forever, but I'd like to hear why you feel so confident that the point is now that we can exist without it.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:51 pm
@mysteryman,
Mysteryman...with all the respect in the world...and I mean that!...the stuff you are saying sounds to me like rationalization.

I have no dog in this fight. I am not a Democrat any more than I am a Republican. I have as many arguments with liberals as I have with conservatives. (I think people who label themselves that way lack something essential!)

If you feel comfortable equating the kind of things liberals do to give a hand up to less fortunate (white or black)...with the kind of **** coming from some of our country's white supremacists...even unto lynchings of blacks for the crime of being black...do so. That is your right.

I disagree with you.

mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 06:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you feel comfortable equating the kind of things liberals do to give a hand up to less fortunate (white or black)...with the kind of **** coming from some of our country's white supremacists...even unto lynchings of blacks for the crime of being black...do so.


First off, I am in NO WAY trying to equate the two.
The actions of the white supremacists are despicable and are no way excuseable or defensible.
If you thought I was trying to equate the two, or if I said anything to give you that impression, I apologize.

BUT, not all racism takes the form of violence or hate.
It exists wherever you give one group preference or assistance on the grounds that they need the help.
It exists anywhere you say or insinuate that any group cant make it on their own, that they need govt help or special consideration to make anything of themselves.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 07:12 pm
@mysteryman,
mm is probably making a mountain out of a mole hill at this juncture in our history. What we have today is racism that has gone underground for the most part; it usually doesn't affect the majority of minorities concerning opportunities to attend the best schools or apply for good jobs. "This" is a huge change from the time I was a youth in this country when some people would tell me to "go back to your own country." Ignorance still plies some people's grey matter in the same manner it did during my youth, but my siblings and I are third generation Americans; we have no "other" country to go back to.

We all served in the US Military except our sister during war and peace time. Our son served in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf war, and served in the US Air Force for over 12-years.

Some still think we do not belong here, because we have an Asian face. The fact that most of our children have married into many of the European cultures makes little difference to bigots.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 07:37 pm
The following constitutes a declaration of war by Congress against Iraq.
Congress wrote:

Congress's Joint Resolution Oct. 16, 2002

Public Law 107-243 107th Congress Joint Resolution (H.J. Res. 114) To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
...
Sec. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION--The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate to--
(1) defend the security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION.--...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 07:40 pm
@ican711nm,
There never was a threat posed by Iraq against the US or Americans. They didn't have the weapons or the means to deliver them to the US. That was a fear created by the Bush administration to win the support of congress for war through lies and innuendos. Go back and review what Colin Powell told the UN.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 08:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
We don't have that today. There were MORE people in North Vietnam and in North Korea than in all of Al Qaeda.
0 Replies
 
 

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