AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How is the tax policies in the US a transfer of wealth to the poor?

Sheesh, ci, do you have any ability to reason at all? It is merely a case of simple common sense reasoning combined with a just a beginning knowledge of math, to see that it clearly is.

Of course, just because you take some wealth from the rich and transfer it to the poor, that in no way indicates that the poor will be able to retain that wealth, preserve it, or grow it. I heard a long time ago that if one took all the money away from everybody and basically started over, it is likely that the same people that are better off now would end up being the ones with most of the wealth a number of years down the road. The reason this would likely be true, is that wealth is a result of much more than simply having it, it is the wisdom and work ethic that created it and preserved it. Therefore, it might be possible to take everyone's wealth, but it would be impossible to also take all of their wisdom and work ethic that enabled them to gain it, and then redistribute that to those that don't have it. An analogy to this would be, you can take all the trophies away from a championship team, but if you play the games again, the results are likely to come out about the same. It isn't the trophies that count, it is how you prepare for and play the game. Similarly, it is the wisdom or management ability, plus the work ethic that determines our success. You cannot make somebody automatically successful simply by giving them money, and that is why liberalism doesn't work.

2 Replies

AMERICA’S CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT IS UNDER ATTACK

George Soros and his Democrat Party appear to believe their ends justify their means.

George Soros in his 1995 book, page 145, Soros on Soros, I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

George Soros has owned and directed the Democrat Party since December 2004.

"Sam Hananel in his associated Press article, December 10, 2004,"] On December 9, 2004, Eli Pariser, who headed Soros's group Moveon PAC, boasted to his members, "Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it."

Soros … pushed for the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 which was intended to ban "soft money" contributions to federal election campaigns. Soros has responded that his donations to unaffiliated organizations do not raise the same corruption issues as donations directly to the candidates or political parties.

Soros gave $3 million to the Center for American Progress, committed $5 million to MoveOn, while he and his friend Peter Lewis each gave America Coming Together $10 million. (All were groups that worked to support Democrats in the 2004 election.)

George Soros has directed the members of the Democrat party to pass or continue legislation that violates the Constitution of the USA as lawfully amended. George Soros directed the federal government to adopt and/or continue the following such programs.

• Healthcare Reform:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/Industries/health-care-providers/center-for-health-solutions/health-care-reform/index.htm?id=USGoogle_hcreform_310&gclid=CKLi6PKDzKUCFUN66wodrlBmlA
National health reform is here. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the reconciliation bill are law. Together, they will trigger sweeping changes and disruptions — some rather quickly and some over many years.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_health_health_care_healthcare.html
What's really in Obama's health care reform bill? Almost no one knows, and here's why: It's 1,017 pages long and written in an alien form of bureaucratic English that can barely be decoded by earthlings.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts
Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax."
• TARP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Assets_Relief_Program
The Troubled Asset Relief Program, commonly referred to as TARP, is a program of the United States government to purchase assets and equity from financial institutions to strengthen its financial sector which was signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008. It is the largest component of the government's measures in 2008 to address the subprime mortgage crisis. …
• Stimulus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, abbreviated ARRA (Pub.L. 111-5) and commonly referred to as the Stimulus or The Recovery Act, is an economic stimulus package enacted by the 111th United States Congress in February 2009.
• Fannie Mae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_may
The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA) (OTCBB: FNMA), commonly known as Fannie Mae, was set up as a stockholder-owned corporation chartered by Congress in 1968 as a government-sponsored enterprise (GSE), ..
• Freddie Mac:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mac
The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), known as Freddie Mac (OTCBB: FMCC), is a public government sponsored enterprise (GSE), headquartered in the Tyson's Corner CDP in unincorporated Fairfax County, Virginia. …

The Constitution does not delegate power to the federal government to transfer wealth from those who earned it to those who did not and do not earn it. The Constitution does specify that the federal government can take a person’s property to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States.

Amendment X (1791)
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Amendment V (1791)
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment XIII (1865)
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Article I. Section 8 (1789)
The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; …

George Soros’s Democrat Party adoption and and/or continuation of the previously listed programs (Healthcare Reform, TARP, Stimulus, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) , are evidence that they are adhering to the enemies of the USA, giving them aid and comfort, and arethereby guilty of committing treason.

Article III (1791)
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

The Constitution of the USA as amended is part of the supreme law of the land.

Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

George Soros has declared his intention to create a new world order through the suppression of the U.S. economy.

Quote:

http://sandrarose.com/2009/11/george-soros-plot-to-create-a-new-world-order-through-the-destruction-of-the-us-economy/
… George Soros … is a multibillionaire Globalist whose millions in political contributions financed Barack Obama’s campaign for president.
He is Obama’s biggest benefactor.
In this video, Soros basically tells America to stop resisting a New World Order and he’s hoping that China will lead the New World Order once the American economy [declines].
In other words, he’s telling us we should not resist the [decline] of our economy! … [Posted are] the highlights from his interview below in case you don’t have the time to watch the video. …
“…an orderly decline of the dollar is desirable”
“It’s ill-considered on the part of the United States to resist…”
“It is not necessarily in our interests to have the dollar as the sole world currency.”
“A decline in the value of the dollar is necessary in order to compensate for the fact that the U.S. economy will remain rather weak…”
“China will emerge as the motor replacing the U.S. consumer..”
“China will be the engine driving (the New World Order) forward, and the U.S. will be actually a drag that’s being pulled along through a gradual decline in the value of the dollar.”

0 Replies

@okie,

Wrong supposition, wrong conclusion; with any tax system, it doesn't take away wealth from the rich to transfer it to the poor.

You don't understand government budgets.

You have no common sense.

You simply parrot what you hear on FOX News, and believe it to be sacrosanct - without doing your own homework to test its veracity.

You're an idiot.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Wrong supposition, wrong conclusion; with any tax system, it doesn't take away wealth from the rich to transfer it to the poor.
You don't understand government budgets.
You have no common sense.
You simply parrot what you hear on FOX News, and believe it to be sacrosanct - without doing your own homework to test its veracity.
You're an idiot.

I think you have just illustrated yourself to be what you accuse me of, ci. If you claim that progressive tax systems do not redistribute wealth, then you are quite ignorant, sir. And are you also prepared to assert that our tax system is not progressive?

Look, when almost 50% of the income earners in this country pay no income tax, and when a significant number of them also receive money back from the IRS, and this is all from money paid in by higher earners, just how do you not think that is not redistribution? It essentially took money from people that had it and gave it to people that did not. Either you admit I am absolutely right, or you are one of the biggest idiots on this forum. And it would also mean you live in total denial of reality.

1 Reply

@okie,

Sir? Most of us born during the Great Depression were on government welfare; and we're the ones who took this country into superpower status after WWII. It was through the sales of bonds that funded our war effort, and the government gave the GI Bill to our returning soldiers that built our economy.

If you believe that was a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor, you don't understand national economics or politics.

Many of those same "poor" people became some of the most wealthy individuals on this planet. They all paid progressive tax rates.

We are now in the precipice of bankruptcy, because we're not taxing the wealthy enough to reduce our national debt.

You are not only stupid, but fail to understand economics in any of its forms.

0 Replies

@okie,

Quote:

I heard a long time ago. . .

When he was a nosy child, listening in on his Roosevelt Democratic parents, hoping to turn them into some governmental agency and win a bounty.

Quote:

that if one took all the money away from everybody and basically started over, it is likely that the same people that are better off now would end up being the ones with most of the wealth a number of years down the road.

Select one of the following:

1.) The same criminals will continue to lie, rob and rape;

2.) okie is a follower of John Calvin and believes that some people are predestined to be poor and that wealth, no matter how ill-gotten, is sign of Jesus' love.

0 Replies

GEORGE SOROS AND HIS DEMOCRAT PARTY EMPLOYEES ARE ATTACKING AMERICA’S CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT AND AMERICA’S FREE ENTERPRISE ECONOMY

George Soros and his Democrat Party appear to believe their ends justify their means.

George Soros in his 1995 book, page 145, Soros on Soros, I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

George Soros has owned and directed the Democrat Party since December 2004.

"Sam Hananel in his associated Press article, December 10, 2004,"] On December 9, 2004, Eli Pariser, who headed Soros's group Moveon PAC, boasted to his members, "Now the Democratic Party is our party. We bought it, we own it."

Soros … pushed for the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 which was intended to ban "soft money" contributions to federal election campaigns. Soros has responded that his donations to unaffiliated organizations do not raise the same corruption issues as donations directly to the candidates or political parties.

Soros gave $3 million to the Center for American Progress, committed $5 million to MoveOn, while he and his friend Peter Lewis each gave America Coming Together $10 million. (All were groups that worked to support Democrats in the 2004 election.)

George Soros has directed the members of the Democrat party to pass or continue legislation that violates the Constitution of the USA as lawfully amended. George Soros directed the federal government to adopt and/or continue the following such programs.

• Healthcare Reform:
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/Industries/health-care-providers/center-for-health-solutions/health-care-reform/index.htm?id=USGoogle_hcreform_310&gclid=CKLi6PKDzKUCFUN66wodrlBmlA
National health reform is here. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act and the reconciliation bill are law. Together, they will trigger sweeping changes and disruptions — some rather quickly and some over many years.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026733_health_health_care_healthcare.html
What's really in Obama's health care reform bill? Almost no one knows, and here's why: It's 1,017 pages long and written in an alien form of bureaucratic English that can barely be decoded by earthlings.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2300451/posts
Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax."
• TARP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Assets_Relief_Program
The Troubled Asset Relief Program, commonly referred to as TARP, is a program of the United States government to purchase assets and equity from financial institutions to strengthen its financial sector which was signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008. It is the largest component of the government's measures in 2008 to address the subprime mortgage crisis. …
• Stimulus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009
The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, abbreviated ARRA (Pub.L. 111-5) and commonly referred to as the Stimulus or The Recovery Act, is an economic stimulus package enacted by the 111th United States Congress in February 2009.
• Fannie Mae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_may
The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA) (OTCBB: FNMA), commonly known as Fannie Mae, was set up as a stockholder-owned corporation chartered by Congress in 1968 as a government-sponsored enterprise (GSE), ..
• Freddie Mac:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mac
The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), known as Freddie Mac (OTCBB: FMCC), is a public government sponsored enterprise (GSE), headquartered in the Tyson's Corner CDP in unincorporated Fairfax County, Virginia. …

The Constitution does not delegate power to the federal government to transfer wealth from those who earned it to those who did not and do not earn it. The Constitution does specify that the federal government can take a person’s property to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States.

Amendment X (1791)
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Amendment V (1791)
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment XIII (1865). Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Article I. Section 8 (1789)
The Congress shall have power To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; …

George Soros’s Democrat Party adoption and and/or continuation of the previously listed programs (Healthcare Reform, TARP, Stimulus, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) , are evidence that they are adhering to the enemies of the USA, giving them aid and comfort, and arethereby guilty of committing treason.

Article III (1791). Section 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

The Constitution of the USA as amended is part of the supreme law of the land.

Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

George Soros has declared his intention to create a new world order through the suppression of the U.S. economy.

Quote:

http://sandrarose.com/2009/11/george-soros-plot-to-create-a-new-world-order-through-the-destruction-of-the-us-economy/
… George Soros … is a multibillionaire Globalist whose millions in political contributions financed Barack Obama’s campaign for president.
He is Obama’s biggest benefactor.
In this video, Soros basically tells America to stop resisting a New World Order and he’s hoping that China will lead the New World Order once the American economy [declines].
In other words, he’s telling us we should not resist the [decline] of our economy! … [Posted are] the highlights from his interview below in case you don’t have the time to watch the video. …
“…an orderly decline of the dollar is desirable”
“It’s ill-considered on the part of the United States to resist…”
“It is not necessarily in our interests to have the dollar as the sole world currency.”
“A decline in the value of the dollar is necessary in order to compensate for the fact that the U.S. economy will remain rather weak…”
“China will emerge as the motor replacing the U.S. consumer..”
“China will be the engine driving (the New World Order) forward, and the U.S. will be actually a drag that’s being pulled along through a gradual decline in the value of the dollar.”

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Hey, ican, I own the Independent party - lock stock and barrel. How about that? I make a statement, and it must be true.

0 Replies

@georgeob1,

Well George.

If the tax system is being used to transfer wealth and liberals are attempting to equalize outcomes then what is okie's point?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Year.......FEDERAL RECEIPTS
1980......$0.517 trillion [CARTER]
1988….…$0.909 trillion [REAGAN]
1992.......$1.091 trillion [BUSH41]
2000......$2.025 trillion [CLINTON]
2008......$2.521 trillion [BUSH43]
2010.......$2.931 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010

Year.......FEDERAL OUTLAYS
1980.......$0.591 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$1.064 trillion [REAGAN] average annual increase = 0.059 trillion
1992........$1.382 trillion [BUSH41] average annual increase = 0.080 trillion
2000.......$1.789 trillion [CLINTON] average annual increase = 0.051 trillion
2008.......$2.931 trillion [BUSH43] average annual increase = 0.143 trillion
2010........$3.399 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010 average annual increase for 1.917 years = 0.244 trillion

I would have the Soros-Obama-Democrat-Republicans cut:
> Healthcare,
> TARP,
> Stimulus,
> Fannie Mae,
> Freddie Mac

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

You would cut TARP, because you are too stupid to understand economics. Even GW Bush knew better.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You would cut TARP, because you are too stupid to understand economics. Even GW Bush knew better.

I would cut TARP because TARP has worsened our economy and our nation's debt. "You are too stupid to understand economics." In fact, you appear incapable of providing a rational rebuttal.

You poor feller!

3 Replies

@ican711nm,

Think what would have happened if all the banks closed - if you can. That thin air when you fly must have destroyed your brain.

0 Replies

@ican711nm,

Quote:

I would cut TARP because TARP has worsened our economy and our nation's debt.

Explain how TARP worsened our economy, please.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@ican711nm,

Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Year.......FEDERAL RECEIPTS
1980......$0.517 trillion [CARTER]
1988….…$0.909 trillion [REAGAN]
1992.......$1.091 trillion [BUSH41]
2000......$2.025 trillion [CLINTON]
2008......$2.521 trillion [BUSH43]
2010.......$2.931 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010

Year.......FEDERAL OUTLAYS
1980.......$0.591 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$1.064 trillion [REAGAN] average annual increase = 0.059 trillion
1992........$1.382 trillion [BUSH41] average annual increase = 0.080 trillion
2000.......$1.789 trillion [CLINTON] average annual increase = 0.051 trillion
2008.......$2.931 trillion [BUSH43] average annual increase = 0.143 trillion
2010........$3.399 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010 average annual increase for 1.917 years = 0.244 trillion

Year………FEDERAL DEFICITS
1980.......$0.074 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$0.155 trillion [REAGAN]
1992........$0.291 trillion [BUSH41]
2000.......SURPLUS $0.236 trillion [CLINTON]
2008.......$0.410 trillion [BUSH43]
2010........$0.160 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010

Year………GROSS FEDERAL DEBT
1980.......$0.909 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$2.601 trillion [REAGAN] average annual increase = 0.2115 trillion
1992........$4.002 trillion [BUSH41] average annual increase = 0.3503 trillion
2000.......$5.629 trillion [CLINTON] average annual increase = 0.2034 trillion
2008.......$9.654 trillion [BUSH43] average annual increase = 0.5031trillion
2010.......$10.954 trillion [OBAMA] as of November 2010, average annual increase for 1.917 years = 0.678 trillion

Quote:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt
Year……TOTAL US CIVIL EMPLOYMENT
1980……………..99 million [CARTER]
1988…………… 115 million [REAGAN]
1992…………….118 million [BUSH41]
2000……………137 million [CLINTON]
2007………..….146 million [BUSH43]
2008………….. 145 million [BUSH43]
2009,……….....140 million [OBAMA]
2010.……………139 million [OBAMA] as of November 2010

Year.…….PERCENT OF CIVILIAN POPULATION EMPLOYED
1980…………………………………….59.2 [CARTER]
1988…………………………………….62.3 [REAGAN]
1992…………………………………….61.5 [BUSH41]
2000…………………………………….64.4 [CLINTON]
2007…………………………………….63.0 [BUSH43]
2008…………………………………….62.2 [BUSH43]
2009…………………………………….59.3 [OBAMA]
2010…………………………………….58.2 [OBAMA] as of November 2010

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

ican, Posting that list repeatedly only tells us you are a parrot without brains.

0 Replies

@parados,

okie never had a point.

0 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

What he stated about liberals was a very defensible opinion. Certainly the progressive wing of the Democrat party openly espouses the need for government action to redistribute wealth. Okie overstated it a bit, but it is hardly a novel or unusual idea requiring proof. I see you expressing numerous opinions here about issues and about other posters, some rather outrageous and offensive, but never with any proof. Why add hypocrisy to all that?

It was not only defensible, it is accurate, and not overstated. Obama himself has talked about "spreading the wealth around," when he talked to "Joe the Plumber." It strikes me that folks here like ci and parados have short memories and are not very informed.

2 Replies

@okie,

okie wrote:

It strikes me that folks here like ci and parados have short memories and are not very informed.

I'm not surprised, they have proven this many times.

0 Replies

@okie,

You didn't overstate it a bit?
Okie.. did you or did you not say that Obama wants everyone to have equal wealth?

1 Reply

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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