AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@JamesMorrison,

JamesMorrison wrote:

Good Grief! Even the presidential seal is now so forlorn that it has decided to Jump Ship!

JM

He handled it well -

Quote:

"That's all right, all of you know who I am," the president joked to laughter from the audience when he realized what had happened.

"But I'm sure there's somebody back there that's really nervous right now, don't you think?" the president added, referring to whatever staffer had hung the seal on the front of his lectern so precariously.

"They're sweating bullets," he said, laughing. "Where were we," he then said, and returned to his remarks.

Lol

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The Democrats certainly are similar to most conservative and centrist parties. In Europe and elsewhere.

But in this case, okie always refers to the US situation. And, of course, he compares foreign parties to his view as well.

But if others do so .... see his responses ....

So in Europe, do you have to be 100% communist, or Marxist, to be left wing? After all, I guess you consider the Fascists and Nazis which were somewhere between capitalist and communist as ultra right wing.

And yes, I have made it clear all along here that my assessment of right vs left has been according to how we now understand it in America, and I believe that is entirely reasonable and sensible. After all, we need a credible or stable yardstick to use for measurement that represents some semblance of reality to today's world, instead of a measure that is different and changing depending upon time and place. For example, if an inch equaled one foot 70 years ago in Germany, our understanding of history would be one confused mess, and perhaps that is why you and other libs are so confused about the political leanings of Hitler, it is perhaps because you use different units of measure depending upon the result you desire?

Back to the Democrats, it is obvious that Obama is one of the most liberal or leftist presidents in history, if not the most liberal. As a senator, he had one of the most, or the most liberal voting record of any senator, during his term or ever.

2 Replies

@plainoldme,

I used your own words to make a point.
Sorry if that bothers you.

1 Reply

@JamesMorrison,

Quote:

perhaps he is preparing for another round with the Iranian mullahs?

It was GWB that helped the mullah most by calling them evil.

0 Replies

Quote:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

He handled it well -

Quote:
Quote:
"That's all right, all of you know who I am," the president joked to laughter from the audience when he realized what had happened.

"But I'm sure there's somebody back there that's really nervous right now, don't you think?" the president added, referring to whatever staffer had hung the seal on the front of his lectern so precariously.

"They're sweating bullets," he said, laughing. "Where were we," he then said, and returned to his remarks.

Lol

Cycloptichorn

Yes, an excellent comeback ,but did we then hear a promise of a future 'Ass Kickin'? Wink

JM

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

The Democrats certainly are similar to most conservative and centrist parties. In Europe and elsewhere.

Assuming the "Democrats" in this statement specifically references the Democratic Party in the U.S., I find this statement quite remarkable and enlightning. Are you saying that of all the political parties in Europe the furthest any such entity might come to embody the principles of individual liberty/responsibility and small un-intrusive government that the American Democratic Party would be the best example of European conservatisim?

Also, perhaps you can give us a short tutorial on the political spectrum in Europe. Past examples of the right and the left (present examples would be helpful also) plus a brief description of their principles would help. There does seem to be somewhat of a gap in my knowledge here. I was under the impression that Fascism was on the right and Communism on the left but their practical application in the forms of Hitler and Stalin seem to demonstrate the classical "distinction without a difference" situation.

Thanks,

JM

4 Replies

@JamesMorrison,

The fact that you don't much about the world shows a lack of respect for general knowledge. A tutorial is for ignorant adults who purports to be political experts.

1 Reply

@ican711nm,

Quote:

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

We might add:

Quote:

...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

-The Founders

Emphasis mine.

JM

1 Reply

@JamesMorrison,

So, what's holding you back?

Angry Conservatives talk a big game, but where are the actions?

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@JamesMorrison,

James, it appears that folks like Walter may consider forms of what we would consider to be very socialistic, such as Democratic Socialist systems as being right wing or conservative, and perhaps things like communism or very extreme forms of socialism are what it takes for him to brand it leftwing. I am not sure if Walter would agree with that statement, but that is the impression I have developed during the course of our many discussions, especially in regard to his views about why he thinks Hitler was an ultra right winger, I think primarily by virtue of his nationalism and the fact that he opposed Russian style communism, which he viewed as an international form of socialism. I will freely agree that many historians also view Hitler as an ultra rightee, however, I think if one examines the policy postions and the actions of Hitler and the Nazis, and compare them to the current yardstick of what defines left vs right here in this country, it is an open shut no doubt case that Hitler was a leftee, and the evidence is overwhelming. Also, it is clear from just a little bit of research that Mussolini's brand of Fascism, which Nazism was similar to, was called the Third Way, which combined elements of capitalism and communism or socialism. I don't know about you, but injecting free market capitalism with large doses of socialism does not make it more to the right or ultra right, it instead pulls it significantly to the left. To me, that is simple common sense.

So, the real important point that you raise here is crucial, by what yardstick is Walter defining left vs right?

1 Reply

@JamesMorrison,

JamesMorrison wrote:

Are you saying that of all the political parties in Europe the furthest any such entity might come to embody the principles of individual liberty/responsibility and small un-intrusive government that the American Democratic Party would be the best example of European conservatisim?

I'm not saying such.

The (US) Democratic Party would be a centrist party, with a lot of ideas in common what conservative parties represent.

JamesMorrison wrote:

I was under the impression that Fascism was on the right and Communism on the left but their practical application in the forms of Hitler and Stalin seem to demonstrate the classical "distinction without a difference" situation.

There are only a (some conservative) US-Americans who don't see Hitler on the extreme right and Stalin on the opposite side.

3 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

So if Hitler was on the extreme right, where does that place a very conservative free market, individual liberty and responsibility, smaller government proponent, such as Ronald Reagan? Where do they fall on some kind of a scale from left to right, Walter? Was Hitler to the right of Reagan or to the Left? And how about Mussolini? And Obama?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

The (US) Democratic Party would be a centrist party, with a lot of ideas in common what conservative parties represent.

This is probably because they are a centrist party in this country as well.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@JamesMorrison,

JamesMorrison wrote:

Also, perhaps you can give us a short tutorial on the political spectrum in Europe. Past examples of the right and the left (present examples would be helpful also) plus a brief description of their principles would help.

Most are online, try any search engine.

I do think that you need perhaps some lessons in history - e.g. aboutz how political parties were founded in Europe. [You'll (perhaps) be surprised that the first political parties were indeed founded in Europe.]

You will find out that poltical parties here are numerous - and thus present the the political ideas of the citizens of the European countries (e.g. a couple of "similar" parties, which are different in just some 'ideas'.)

I suppose, however, it's very difficult for someone, who is fixed on a more or less strict two-parties-system to understand any different approach, especially, of such is different in different countries ...

These links might give some help:

European People's Party (Centre-right)

Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (Centre-left)

Alliance of Liberals and Democrats in Europe (Liberals)

The Greens – European Free Alliance (Greens)

European Conservatives and Reformists (right)

European United Left – Nordic Green Left (left)

Europe of Freedom and Democracy (very right)

2 Replies

@talk72000,

Quote:

The fact that you don't much about the world shows a lack of respect for general knowledge. A tutorial is for ignorant adults who purports to be political experts.

Really? I, of course, admit to being ignorant of the subject and that was the reasoning for asking Walter to help enlighten me. Implicit in your last sentence, however, is that you are not using the word 'ignorant' to describe me as merely uninformed but more as a pejorative term. Your first sentence makes little sense but is a good example of a non sequitor: because I lack knowledge of a subject (the 'world') it "does not follow" that I show a lack of respect for 'general knowledge' (whatever that means).

Further, a tutorial is an abbreviated instruction to enlighten those who wish to be enlightened by those who know more about a subject than themselves and consider themselves far from being an 'expert', political or otherwise.

Sigh. If only President Obama had taken a short tutorial conducted by a Milton Friedman disciple.

Is this your adopted attitude when your children ask you simple questions to which you may not have an immediate answer? Can you answer my question to Walter in a civil manner?

Why did you waste your time interjecting yourself into an expected civil exchange between my self and Walter?

JM

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

We conservatives are working on it. First we are working to elect people who truly want to take and will take the necessary action to rescue and conserve the rule of law in the USA's Constitutional Republic.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

So, what's holding you back?

Nothing so far. Conservatives, angry or otherwise, are working hard to get themselves and their candidates elected over Dems and RINOs.

Quote:

Angry Conservatives talk a big game, but where are the actions?

I myself have already been politcally active and even voted. But whether any of our actions have been successful we must wait to see. The real question in my mind is how far right we may have moved the GOP and that must wait until the 112th Congress is seated. Boehner, Ryan, Cantor et al have been making the right noises so far. Also, as it turns out, the 'Pledge' was intentionally vague. Specific actions by the GOP must wait, but you know that.

JM

2 Replies

@JamesMorrison,

JamesMorrison wrote:

Quote:
So, what's holding you back?

Nothing so far. Conservatives, angry or otherwise, are working hard to get themselves and their candidates elected over Dems and RINOs.

Yeah, right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've heard this exact same story out of your party plenty of times before, with '94 being the latest example. What confidence do you have the the crop you are currently pushing will be any more true to their supposed 'principles' once they reach office? Once they are forced to begin actually negotiating to get things done, instead of merely pontificating about it?

Quote:

Quote:
Angry Conservatives talk a big game, but where are the actions?

I myself have already been politcally active and even voted. But whether any of our actions have been successful we must wait to see. The real question in my mind is how far right we may have moved the GOP and that must wait until the 112th Congress is seated. Boehner, Ryan, Cantor et al have been making the right noises so far. Also, as it turns out, the 'Pledge' was intentionally vague. Specific actions by the GOP must wait, but you know that.

JM

Boehner and Cantor are self-serving fools who don't know the first thing about Conservatism or fiscal restraint. These guys have been the primary leadership of the very group of Republicans that you bunch are trying to replace - and yet, they are doing the right thing?

Paul Ryan is the worst of all of them you mentioned - his 'road map' is a joke that nobody in his own party will sign on to support, as well as being a plan for fiscal disaster for the country (though it does lower taxes on the rich, which is all that he and you seem to care about). He is deeply unserious and shouldn't be an example of anyone you are supporting. I highly suggest that you look deeper into these people than you seem to have done, especially if you are trying to convince anyone that you are working to 'change' Washington in any way. You sure as hell aren't going to do it by just supporting the old guard leadership, because they will keep on being big spenders who regularly make idiotic comments about fiscal and other national matters.

The 'pledge' is not only vague, it's unsupported by your own caucuses and unknown by the public at large; I saw a recent poll saying that less than 25% of registered Republicans had even heard of it!

I don't think that voting in a bunch of people who are essentially no different than others who are already in office justifies the quote that you made from the Declaration. Not in the slightest. You aren't working to do anything different with the government other than to support the status quo.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

CURRENTLY THE DEMOCRAT PARTY IS NOT CENTRIST. IT IS LEFTIST.

It advocates:
securing their right to steal wealth others earn.

1 Reply

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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