AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

@okie,

okie, Your assumptions about Hitler's left wing politics just doesn't hold up to history. Most political historians have a difficult time assigning Hitler as left or right; he was a tyrant without any question.

However, the actions he took during his control of Germany were right wing. Forget the 25 points; they don't mean anything. I gave an example of this, but you probably missed it since you are so busy with other things.

You really do not understand past or current history, because you make things up to support your hate for anything that's left wing.

You have become blind to facts and evidence; your intellectual growth ceased many years ago.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

However, the actions he took during his control of Germany were right wing. Forget the 25 points; they don't mean anything. I gave an example of this, but you probably missed it since you are so busy with other things.

Can you give it again, or quote where you said it? I would love to see it.

I do disagree with you however with your assertion that the 25 points don't mean anything. They only defined the Nazi Party, thats all, if that means nothing in your mind, so be it.

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@okie,

You don't even understand the politics of the time and why Hitler and his minions prepared those 25 points. Your education has failed you; or you failed to get educated.

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@cicerone imposter,

So the 25 points mean nothing. Tell me then how Hitler ruled as right winger. I can't wait to be educated by somebody that understands it all so well.

Also, to repeat my above post:

Quote:

With all of that said, I would like to ask a few simple questions that might help me understand the thinking of some of you, such as pom, imposter, george, cyclops, Walter, anyone for that matter.

1. If you could define left vs right political idealogy in one sentence each, relative to today's world and in particular an American context or understanding, what would those sentences be?
2. If various aspects of communism or complete socialism could be combined with pure free market capitalism, what term would you use for that system, centrist, moderate, Democratic socialist, left, right, or what?
3. On the political spectrum, is Obama in philosophy a centrist, a moderate, a leftist, or a rightest conservative?
4. Does an all powerful State typically occur in a left wing or right wing government?
5. Are individual rights and responsibilities typical of left wing or right wing conservative governments?

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@okie,

We've already been through all of this. I am not going to repeat what's already been said by several people on these boards that you did not accept as fact or evidence.

CLUE: Walter is a citizen of Germany and a historian. You don't even accept his evidence and explanations. What makes you think I'm going to waste my time recollecting all that we have written to satisfy your ignorance?

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@okie,

Quote:

Okay folks, at least a couple of issues here

Well, duh! When you cite two different posters, there will be a "couple" of issues.

Quote:

I have in fact pointed out a number of times in different words what she just said, that what might have been considered right wing or left wing in Germany is different than now and in the United States in particular.

What you fail to accept, okie, is that you do not know how to debate, how to
research, how to use information, how to cite information and, last but not least, how to write with those essential elements: unity, support, coherence.

Furthermore, your personal judgment, your idiolect is such that your subscription to what is left and right, and your use of those words, does not coincide with the definitions that are accepted by the majority of Americans ( but especially not with those who have studied and researched politics and history ).

Quote:

To clarify, I have tried to point out numerous times that my assertion that Hitler was a leftist is in context with how we now understand left vs right in the world today, and in particular in America today.

Absolutely not. Hitler was to the right of politics in his own context and that context contributed to the formation of what is defined as right today. For example, in practice, there is no difference between his persecution of the Jews and the American persecution of blacks. While the targets were different, the idea which gave rise to these policies was the same on both sides of the Atlantic. The Final Solution and Jim Crow laws are both expressions of right wing policy. It was a populist movement arising from the left that put an end to Jim Crow.

The reason why you can not understand that is you refuse to acknowledge this failure of the American right to act in a way that is consonant with democratic principles.

Were you, and others who profess to be right of center, to stand up and say that our political antecedents were wrong but we wish to retrieve the American right and make it a viable, positive and contributing factor on the contemporary political scene, able to craft public policy in re: the economy and international relations as well as social policy, you would be doing something constructive.

As it is, your inability to face reality with courage, to stop wasting your time (although as you do not contribute to threads on other topics, I suspect posting here is your only social outlet and your hobby) and ours with this stupidity that Hitler was on the left, do nothing to further the cause of politics in the US.

I have reached the point of boredom with this thread and with you.

I suggest you read Nineteen Eighty-Four because you are of the sort that would rewrite history. In your case, it is because you misunderstand today's and yesterday's politics.

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@okie,

A footnote: communism is dead. Drop it!

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@okie,

Here is why you should just let it go:

Quote:

I do disagree with you however with your assertion that the 25 points don't mean anything

You said "I disagree" and you are someone who writes under a fake name on an internet forum of no consequence. You write what you think. You do not write from a position of research and fact.

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My daughter sent me a link to this cartoon a few minutes ago. While the cartoon is specifically about the Catholic priesthood, the message is applicable to okie and, by extension, to all on the American right. It is also applicable to those, like Delaware's favorite nutcase Christine o'donnell, who support Creationism or Intelligent Design.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/#comic

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@okie,

Quote:

1. If you could define left vs right political idealogy in one sentence each, relative to today's world and in particular an American context or understanding, what would those sentences be?
2. If various aspects of communism or complete socialism could be combined with pure free market capitalism, what term would you use for that system, centrist, moderate, Democratic socialist, or what?
3. On the political spectrum, is Obama in philosophy a centrist, a moderate, a leftist, or a rightest conservative?
4. Does an all powerful State typically occur in a left wing or right wing government?
5. Are individual rights and responsibilities typical of left wing or right wing
conservative governments?

Although I have addressed each of these stupid questions before, and, although you will promptly, without one shred of self-control, immediately tell me that I am wrong, I will answer you.

You, however, must never ask anyone of these questions again.

When they read this, parados and cyclo and cicerone will be rolling on the floor, because they all know you will immediately forget that I wrote this plea and will ask again, on Wednesday, if not Tuesday.

Question #1 is too broad. I would have my writing students narrow it down. I

Now, that I have read it three times, I wonder just what are you asking?

Quote:

1. If you could define left vs right political idealogy in one sentence each, relative to today's world and in particular an American context or understanding,

Context and understanding are not synonyms. Maybe one of our other readers has some idea just what you are asking, but, I don't.

Are you asking which ideology dominates or is more prevalent? Are you asking which is more respected on the world stage? If either is your question, I will say that the right is louder about who and what it is and seems to dominate now. However, most people have no political opinion at all. I also think that the world has greater respect for the American left, although other nations think Americans are still neophytes when it comes to leaning to the left. The rest of the world thinks American rightists are fools.

Question #2.

Again, you contradict yourself. You ask if "complete socialism" could be combined with capitalism. Really? IF it is complete, how can it combine?

Your question is evidence that you have no idea what either socialism or communism is. But, that is not news here on a2k.

No aspect of communism will be combined with capitalism because there are too many stupid people in America who run whenever their equally stupid rulers say run. If you think either John Boerner or Rush Limbaugh knows what they are, you are incredibly naive. Communism with a capital C was never pure. Capitalism hasn't been pure. Capitalism is fast becoming oligarchical.

To attempt to think up a name is futile. If a combined system evolves, it will acquire a name as part of its evolution.

Question #3.

How many times have I told you Obama is a centrist? BTW, a centrist is a moderate unless moderate is used as an adjective and not, as you used it here, a noun.

Question #4.

All powerful states are more apt to happen on the right. There have been more right wing states than left throughout history. Part of the definition of the right in America is its will to dominate, its inability to share and listen, its demagoguery. However, to call the Roman Empire right wing is stupid. There was no left and right at that time, only rule by might. Someone once told me that Attila the Hun was actually a progressive ruler, but, I was never able to ask how he knew that as our conversation came to a premature end.

Question #5.

I have answered this hundreds of times: there is no personal responsibility on the right. I have elaborated on this ad nauseam and refuse to do so again.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

okie's question number one reveals his ignorance about politics. There is no way in hell to describe left wing or right wing in one sentence each. The issue he doesn't realize is that all individuals are a mix of left wing and right wing with different emphasis on what the political issue happens to be. The combination is limitless, but in his world, it's definable.

That's the fundamental problem with okie; his knowledge base doesn't exist. Trying to communicate anything with somebody who has no clue about the subjects he's trying debate, leaves his opinions and questions so far from anything intelligible, it's impossible to participate in it.

Like I said before, his brain is stuck in an iron vise that will not move.

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Quote:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19832&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DPD
Obstacle to Deficit Cutting: A Nation on Entitlements

The Treasury recently reported that the government ran a $1.26 trillion deficit for the first 11 months of the fiscal year, on pace to be the second-biggest on record. Efforts to tame America's ballooning budget deficit could soon confront a daunting reality: Nearly half of all Americans live in a household in which someone receives government benefits, more than at any time in history, says the Wall Street Journal.

At the same time, the fraction of American households not paying federal income taxes has also grown -- to an estimated 45 percent in 2010, up from 39 percent five years ago, according to the Tax Policy Center.

A little more than half don't earn enough to be taxed; the rest take so many credits and deductions they don't owe anything.

Most still get hit with Medicare and Social Security payroll taxes, but 13 percent of all U.S. households pay neither federal income nor payroll taxes.
As recently as the early 1980s, about 30 percent of Americans lived in households in which an individual was receiving Social Security, subsidized housing, jobless benefits or other government-provided benefits. By the third quarter of 2008, 44 percent were, according to the most recent Census Bureau data. That number has undoubtedly gone up, as the recession has hammered incomes, says the Journal.

Some 41.3 million people were on food stamps as of June 2010, for instance, up 45 percent from June 2008.

With unemployment high and federal jobless benefits now available for up to 99 weeks, 9.7 million unemployed workers were receiving checks in late August 2010, more than twice as many as the 4.2 million in August 2008.

Still more Americans -- 19 million by 2019, according to the Congressional Budget Office -- will get federal aid to buy health insurance when legislation passed this year is implemented.

Despite occasional bouts of belt-tightening in Washington and bursts of discussion about restraining big government, the trend toward more Americans receiving government benefits has continued for more than 70 years -- and shows no sign of abating, says the Journal.

Source: Sara Murray, "Obstacle to Deficit Cutting: A Nation on Entitlements," Wall Street Journal, September 14, 2010.

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@ican711nm,

Quote:

A little more than half don't earn enough to be taxed

Not all of these people are teenagers. That is a serious problem.

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@ican711nm,

What Sara Murray describes here is the end product of a chain of events that began in the mid-1970s. By 1978, a sales clerk in a retail store could no longer earn enough to support a family. After 1979, wages for 80% of the working population remained static. Only the top quintile saw a rise in real wages.

Why don't you put some of your time and energy toward solving the above problems rather than posting crap and the occasional piece, such as this, that you clearly do not understand the significance of?

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@plainoldme,

I wish there were some way I could stay on line and count how long it will take for this comment to thumbed down!

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

I tried to google Sara Murray. I once dated a Wall Street Journal reporter who later became the publisher for Time-Life. He had a degree from one of the nation's leading liberal arts colleges, then all male, as well as a law degree. It would not surprise me to learn that Ms. Murray had a similar CV. That is why I am surprised that you would cite the Wall Street Journal.

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The race in Wisconsin's 7th District:

Julie Lassa grew up on a small dairy farm which taught her early on the Wisconsin values of hard work and how to stretch a dollar. That’s why Julie has helped small businesses grow and create jobs while cracking down on government waste, and she will do the same in Washington. Reality TV Star Sean Duffy has forgotten Wisconsin values and has become so out of touch with the life of everyday Wisconsin families, he has embraced a reckless
agenda of privatizing Social Security, eliminating Medicare as we know it, raising middle class taxes, and rewarding corporations who ship American jobs abroad to countries like India, China, and Mexico.

Duffy supports the budget drafted by Rep. Paul Ryan, which would institute vouchers for Medicare and privatize Social Security. Not only does the Ryan Budget privatize Social Security and institute a voucher system for Medicare, but the Ryan Budget would also shift the tax burden further onto middle class Americans while giving millionaires a tax break. [UW-Stevens Point College Republicans meeting, 3/11/10; Washington Post, 2/1/10; Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 7/07/10]
Sean Duffy has proven himself to be a staunch "free trader," defending business practices that send American jobs overseas, and signing a pledge to protect tax breaks for companies that outsource American jobs.

The race in NY's 1st District:

Tim Bishop has proven to be an effective, independent voice for New York families. Randy Altschuler is an out of touch millionaire who made a fortune sending American jobs overseas.

Millionaire Randy Altschuler was the founder and co-CEO of OfficeTiger, an Indian outsourcing company. In their Indian offices, Office Tiger paid “roughly a tenth” of what would be made for comparable work in the US. At its height, Altschuler’s outsourcing company had 10,000 employees in 9 countries, including Sri Lanka, India and the Philippines. In a 2003 interview with the Financial Times, Altschuler even said “In India you get a much higher standard of person doing assistant work.” [Financial News, 3/23/03] [New Yorker, 7/05/04; Rediff India Abroad, 9/14/06; Office Tiger Documentary; www.officetiger.com, archived 10/20/06; Financial News, 3/23/03]
Randy is a multi-millionaire. According to the Personal Financial Disclosure form he filed in June 2010, his assets were valued between $9.5 and $30.4 million. Altschuler and his wife earned hundreds of thousands of dollars just in income from their investments for the past several years. [Altschuler 2009 and 2010 Personal Financial Disclosure Forms]

The race in Delaware:

John Carney’s working class roots have him focused on job creation and economic development in Delaware. If Glen Urquhart had his way, middle class families in Delaware would see a drastic tax increase. The Delaware Republican has endorsed a risky and radical tax plan that would enact a 23 percent national sales tax on all goods and services including food and clothing. The plan would drastically increase the tax burden on middle class families, while lowering the tax burden on wealthy Americans like himself.

Millionaire Glen Urquhart supports the Fair Tax over the current tax code. Urquhart said the fair tax would be “much m ore fair, much simpler,” and would allow the government to get rid of the IRS. [WHYY First Radio, 4/17/10]
According to Factcheck.org, under the Fair Tax, everybody earning between $15,000 and $200,000 per year would pay more per year while those earning more than $200,000 would see their overall tax burden decrease. In Delaware, middle income families would see their taxes increase by $2,633 per year. The top one percent would see their taxes cut by $192,393 a year. [Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy; Factcheck.org, 5/31/07]
According to his financial disclosure form, Urquhart is worth several million dollars. Urquhart’s assets are valued between $11 and $39 million and earned him a minimum of $259,000 in income in 2009. [Delaware News Journal, 8/12/10; Urquhart Personal Financial Disclosure, filed 5/14/10]

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@cicerone imposter,

Here is a link to an essay a beautiful, talented and intelligent young (she was born in 1981) woman. Laila Ayad wrote this while a student at NYU, an extremely competitive school.

Here, she uses her knowledge of photography to tell the truth about Hitler:
http://www.nyu.edu/cas/ewp/html/ayad.html

The essay was written in 2001,when Laila was just 20 years old and already light years ahead of okie.

1 Reply

@plainoldme,

I will be visiting Auschwitz in November 2011 when I visit Krakow and Warsaw. I've been to Poland before, but on my first visit there, I thought it too emotional to visit Auschwitz. I've been to several Holocaust museums in the US and Europe (even the one in Jerusalem), and feel I'm ready for this first hand exposure.

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@cicerone imposter,

Prepare to be deeply moved.
I was there in the mid 1980's, and it is an experience like no other.
When I was there it was in July, and it seemed like when we walked thru the gate the outside air temp dropped about 30 degrees.
There was an almost unnatural chill in the air.
And the silence around that place is deafening. Its like no sound, not a bird or the wind or anything, penetrates the air around there.

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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

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