55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 09:57 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

It doesn't HAVE to Cyclops. Okie laid out some good ideas that would still make the tax progressive and protect the poor. I'm sure you don't disagree that doing so is important.

Our country needs incentives to save more money; this is one way to help that.


It's still very regressive, even including those things, because the rich get exempted from the same stuff! Taxes are only progressive if at the end of the day the Rich pay far more in taxes than the poor do; Okie's solutions don't make that happen at all.

Homeowner credits are a great example. Intended to help those who have a mortgage and have a hard time making their taxes, it has turned into a giant amount of welfare for the rich.

Also, does this tax do away with other taxes, such as Cap Gains? If so, it's a naked giveaway to the rich.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 09:58 am
@xris,
Taxing is essential. We need to pay a lot more taxes to balance our budget and pay off our rapidly expanding national debt.

A national sales tax DOES NOT have to hurt the poor. For example, you don't tax food, or housing, or energy (all options Okie laid out if you read his post). You can issue rebate checks to the poor. There are options here, if you're interested in hearing them.

maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 10:02 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I would think it'd only eliminate the income tax. I'm fine with keeping (and raising) investment taxes.

There are still ways to make it progressive Cyclops.

Taxes on TV's less than $300 = 20%
Taxes on TV's between $301 - $500 = 25%
....
Taxes on TVs over $2000 = 40%


I think you get the idea.
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 02:27 pm
Quote:
Stand with Arizona!
Fellow Patriots,

We've all been hearing a lot about the Feds fighting the State over illegal immigration and Arizona's desire to enforce the laws already on the books.

Just yesterday, in fact, Jan Brewer pointed out that the Federal Government now sends more financial aid to MEXICO than it does for help on the border in the state of Arizona!

This is a very important issue, but it's not what I'm writing you about today.

Arizona has other issues as well. In 2010, there are four big Congressional races coming up in the state. In all four races, Democrats plan big pushes, and the Republicans in many cases have their favorites.

But we've identified four very strong tea party candidates and we've decided to endorse in all four primary battles.

As you know, the decisions made by an Arizona Representative effect the rest of the nation. Just because you might not live in Arizona in no way means we can just ignore it.

The Candidates we've endorsed are:
• Pamela Gorman AZ-CD3 (Sending out today)
• Janet Contreras AZ-CD4 (Sending out later tonight)
• David Schweikert AZ-CD5 (Sending out Thursday)
• Ruth McLung AZ-CD7 (Sending out Friday)
...
You've seen the success of the movement all across the country. In Arizona, though, there are FOUR winnable races for the movement.

But, as has been the case in all other tea party related races, it requires a big fight and a lot of national support.

The movement must continue fighting big government politicians in the primaries, and then follow it up with big wins in generals.

I say we stand with Arizona and help get these four patriots elected.

CLICK HERE TO DONATE THROUGH PAYAL

For Liberty.
-Eric Odom

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 02:34 pm
You cannot dodge these bullets. They have already hit their targets. But you can reduce their number fired in future.
Quote:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.cpseea1.txt

..................... Percent of the Civilian
........................ labor force that is
........................... Employed

2000 (1).................... 64.4
2001........................ 63.7
2002........................ 62.7
2003 (1).................... 62.3
2004 (1).................... 62.3
2005 (1).................... 62.7
2006 (1).................... 63.1
2007 (1).................... 63.0
2008 (1).................... 62.2
2009 (1).................... 59.3

2010:
January (3)................ 58.4
February................... 58.5
March...................... 58.6
April....................... 58.8
May........................ 58.7
June....................... 58.5

0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 15 Jul, 2010 06:56 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I would think it'd only eliminate the income tax. I'm fine with keeping (and raising) investment taxes.

There are still ways to make it progressive Cyclops.

Taxes on TV's less than $300 = 20%
Taxes on TV's between $301 - $500 = 25%
....
Taxes on TVs over $2000 = 40%


I think you get the idea.

To place into context the proposed sales tax, compare it to a flat tax, which is I think much less progressive, in fact it would essentially take the existing income tax code and take all the progressivity out of it.

What cyclops is ignoring is the fact that rich people buy more stuff, and they buy more expensive stuff. Poor people generally do not buy BMWs or Cadillacs, and poor people do not buy yachts and lots of other toys, or at least they do not need to if they ever wish to get out of poverty.

Just looking at my own expenses, I now need an ATV battery, so I would pay a hefty tax on a battery that maybe costs $70, maybe a final cost of $90 just to round it off. In the first place, that battery would likely retail for far less than $70 if the income tax was totally eliminated, but even if not, how many poor people have ATV's anyway, or at least need one. I am not rich, but that is a recreation that I enjoy, it beats sitting on the couch at home every day. I also like to fish, and recently my family with extended family did alot of fishing. All of that stuff we bought, like sinkers, flies, and bait, would collect sales tax, and I would not mind paying it if I had no income tax to pay. And to repeat the point, the fishing tackle companies would probably sell the stuff much cheaper because of reduced costs, and maybe even manufacture much of it here in the United States instead of China.

As already pointed out, the national sales tax could be made progressive by eliminating or reducing sales tax on necessary items and basics of living. These would include groceries, but probably not eating out food, because that is non-essential. Housing to a certain threshold, such as rental costs to a certain threshold or home value to a certain threshold could be exempt. Clothing, the details of that I am not sure, but second hand clothing could possibly be exempt, which would include clothing donated and resold in places like Salvation Army and Goodwill.

Some might argue that all of this could become convoluted or more complicated with time, but I still think it would be far less complicated than the current income tax code. Also, with barcoding technology, it is a relatively simple thing for identifying something that is taxable or non-taxable. Places like Colorado already do this with food and other items in stores, with little or no problems whatsoever.

Finally, I come back to the idea that taxing consumption is a far more benign and appropriate way to tax people, than taxing productivity. When you tax productivity, you are essentially penalizing people at the very foundation of their work ethic and motivation. Taxing consumption actually might encourage more responsible decision making into our manner of life.

Final point, as much as I would love to eliminate it completely, we may still need a remnant of the IRS to administer payroll taxes for social security and Medicare. And through this infrastructure, some have proposed that a rebate could be given the very low wage earners to further offset and inject the desired progressivity into the system, so that low wage earners would not suffer the high cost of sales taxes. But remember, the very poor should already be paying no sales tax on the bare essentials like groceries, housing to a certain threshold, also perhaps medical care and energy. The details of what could be exempted could be debated, but we would need to be careful not to exempt too much stuff or the tax would not fulfill its purpose.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 12:38 pm
Without an income tax, this country would have to lock its doors and put up a for sale sign.
xris
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 01:08 pm
@maporsche,
I know the arguments I just doubt that the poor would benefit.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 05:16 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Without an income tax, this country would have to lock its doors and put up a for sale sign.
It would be a welcome sight to see some of the bureaucracies lock their doors and go out of business.

Some serious questions for everyone, besides national defense, what does the federal government provide that is absolutely essential? Most of our essential government services other than national defense are currently provided through local and state governments, these being police and fire protection. Local jurisdictions also provide most of the funding for schools I believe, but I think reform is needed here to cut out the feds completely out of our schools, and find ways of injecting competition and more control by the consumer or parents of the students attending school.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 05:18 pm
@okie,
I don't know how you think Competition will benefit our schools in the slightest. I wonder how much direct experience you have with modern schooling?

Regarding the sales tax, I think you are trying to make something out of nothing here. We can't lower taxes overall and still get the same amount in the coffers that we need to pay down the deficit and debt. You can restructure them all you like, but if they don't bring in the same amount of money we are currently getting - and more - then it doesn't solve the problem.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 05:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I know we have discussed this before and we disagree, but balancing the budget starts with controlling and cutting spending first, not increasing tax rates.

And to clarify your claims, I never claimed to want to drastically cut the amount of tax revenue by switching to a national sales tax, I was simply proposing that we collect the tax at a different point in the economic cycle, and I stated the reasons why I think a sales tax is a healthier and more efficient method of taxing. I am also not claiming this would ever be a simple and easy matter, and in fact I doubt seriously the idea ever sees any serious consideration by Congress, although I think the proposal deserves it.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 06:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I don't know how you think Competition will benefit our schools in the slightest. I wonder how much direct experience you have with modern schooling?Cycloptichorn

Probably at least as much as anyone. I attended schools, as well as my two siblings a few decades ago. I had two children attend K-12, and currently have grandchildren attending public school. I have close personal friends that are teachers, and I have a close relative that works at a school. Actually, my wife was a teacher.

I don't know if competition would benefit us any more than simply having local control of schools once again, in other words the consumer of the product would have more say over how the product is delivered.

I am convinced of one thing, and that is our educational system is currently delivering a substandard product at an inflated price, I believe that wholeheartedly. My dear mother did not graduate high school, but she was more proficient at math and writing than the vast majority of young people today that have finished high school or even college. And she was more knowledgeable of history and other related subjects.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 07:50 pm
Newt Gingrich with some good points about America, and in regard to what is going on now. He does mention the word "impeachment." I agree with most of his comments.

0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jul, 2010 08:22 pm
"Someone should mention impeachment."
Long applause from wherever Newt Gingrich was speaking.
Do yall think that Newt is going to be running for President in 2012?
Serious question.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 08:15 am
@okie,
I am posting this WSJ article here mostly just to memorialize it for future reference since I don't have time right now to research this.

Quote:
GOP Proposes Brave Budget
It makes the Bush tax cuts permanent and balances the budget by 2019

By STEPHEN MOORE
In one of the most fiscally inept stunts in many years on Capitol Hill, Congressional Democrats have taken a pass on enacting a budget this year. Legislators will just wing it and let the $3.6 trillion fall where it may and hope the public doesn't notice a $1.5 trillion dollar deficit. But the minority Republicans have just presented their own budget plan and it's a remarkably bold and honest document that involves big cuts in government spending over the next decade and a balanced budget by 2019. The GOP budget would be a Tea Partier's dream come true if it ever were enacted.

The plan, fashioned by Tom Price of Georgia, head of the conservative Republican Study Committee, reduces federal borrowing from the Obama baseline by a gargantuan $6.4 trillion over the next decade. Not bad considering that it also lowers taxes by $1.7 trillion more than the Obama budget by making the Bush tax cuts permanent. Spending reductions start with what Mr. Price calls a "reset" on spending for discretionary programs back to 2008 levels. That insures that "temporary" stimulus funding doesn't get continued year after year. The plan also instructs the President and Congress to dedicate every penny of bailout money repaid to the federal government by the banks to debt retirement.

"We think it's essential to show the American people we can cut spending enough to balance the budget even with the big hole Barack Obama has put us in," Mr. Price tells me. His budget is a Reaganite budget, calling for tax cuts, asset sales, repeal of hundreds of wasteful programs, and across-the-board cuts in virtually every program except Social Security. "Even some Republicans will flinch from the spending cuts required to get to a balanced budget," Mr. Price concedes.

Mr. Price and his RSC colleagues show that you can get from here ($1.5 trillion annual deficits) to there (a balanced budget) through spending discipline and economic growth. Can it be done the Democratic way, with higher taxes and lower growth? Not likely.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704913304575371402695945326.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLESecond


JM
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 08:31 am
JM, Tell that to all those unemployed folks and those middle class folks who got extended unemployment benefits and tax breaks.

All this great recession was caused by GW Bush, and Obama had to take care of the American People, and increased the debt.

Learn to balance your opinions.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 10:08 am
@JamesMorrison,
The budget proposed by Price can be found here

http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Fy11RSCBudget_FINAL.pdf

It is an interesting read if you take the time to compare to the actual budget numbers here
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/pdf/hist.pdf


Price somehow assumes that next year the interest paid on the US debt will drop from 250 billion to 206 trillion.
He also assumes that there will be no changes to SS and Medicare benefits but those costs will grow at a much slower rate than is listed in the Obama budget documents.


I guess anyone can balance the budget if they just make up magic numbers without any sense of reality.

1. How does Price think we will decrease the interest paid on the debt by 43 billion dollars next year? Does he not realize that debt is sold on the open market?

2. How does Price propose to keep Medicare and SS costs down without making any changes to those programs? Why should we believe his numbers?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 01:55 pm
@parados,
Just mention the fact that the deficit was created under a Bush admin. please. It would be nice to accept the truth and not forget the disaster we are all suffering from..Amazing how it has been strangely brushed under the carpet and forgotten.
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 06:51 pm
Found this very interesting article about the Arizona vs. Obama thing. (In all honesty, in my readings I have not come across a good legal argument for this administration to sue AZ. This effort seems just another politicizing effort on the part of an Obama WH on a perpetual election campaign) The Article makes a case, not for AZ's new law currently in contention but that state's right to form a militia to protect itself against Mexican paramilitary type drug groups, initially unilaterally, when current events call for and in combination of another reason that, sadly, might very well be "a first" in the U.S. (i.e. a "sectional" president.) The specific interesting section:
Quote:
The Constitution is informative here. In Article IV, Section 4, the federal government is required to "protect each [state] against Invasion; and [on request of the state government] against domestic Violence." As St. George Tucker noted, this provision guards against "the possibility of an undue partiality in the federal government," for example a "sectional" president who might, for political reasons, decline to protect states in a certain region. Today the federal government, at the direction of the president, has declined to carry out its duty under Article IV. Leaving aside its other possible consequences, this intentional failure to protect Arizona raises the question of what action the state is now entitled to take under the Constitution.
Obama's actions against AZ alone are questionable but when considered in the context of an administration that waited 60 days to seriously acknowledge the Gulf oil spill, was slow to grant Gulf States' requests of the Corps of Engineers to allow those states to build sand berms (to block the oil), refused foreign help and materiel that would address the spill early on, and then imposed a expert dissaproved job killing (30,000) moratorium on Gulf area drilling, one can't help but wonder if this administration has some vendetta towards states with Republican Governors. The article:
Quote:
HARTWELL: Obama lawsuit invites fortified state militia
Constitution leaves room for Arizona to secure border
By Ray Hartwell
7:08 p.m., Friday, July 16, 2010

Arizona has enacted a law that enables state and local police to support federal immigration enforcement, in a care- fully circumscribed manner. This moderate statute is under vicious attack by the Obama administration and assorted amnesty advocates. Yet Arizona and her sister states in the Southwest could take dramatically stronger actions to bring order to the border. And they would have both history and the Constitution on their side.

History first. In 1916, criminal gangs rivaled the authority of the Mexican government. Led by Pancho Villa, they launched attacks against Americans on both sides of the border. Following a bloody raid that killed American soldiers and civilians in New Mexico, President Woodrow Wilson dispatched 15,000 state militia to the border and sent Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing and thousands more soldiers into Mexico after Villa and his bandits. Once Pershing's force clashed with the Mexican army, Wilson ordered another 75,000 National Guardsmen to the border region. Supported by an enraged American citizenry, Wilson reacted swiftly and with substantial force to secure our southern border and drive out what was, in effect, a marauding army of Mexican invaders.

Today, armed drug cartels openly challenge the Mexican government. Deadly battles occur frequently in Mexico, where more than 6,500 people were killed by cartel forces last year and more than 5,000 have been killed so far this year. Paramilitary bands have entered the United States illegally and set up sentry and command posts. Federal authorities have actually ceded control of public land in Arizona to these invaders. Cartels claim openly that Mexico's border with the United States has been moved northward to Interstate 8. Federal officials have even advised the public to avoid the Sonoran Desert National Monument, which is not on the border; it's 35 miles southwest of Phoenix.

Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu reports that attacks on police and American citizens have increased in the past several months, saying, "It is literally out of control." Mitch Ellis, federal manager of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge in southern Arizona, warns that the area is "increasingly violent" because of "smugglers and border bandits." The police chief of Nogales, Ariz., has received threats that cartels may use snipers positioned just across the border to target law enforcement personnel in the U.S.

Of course, this is not just about trafficking in drugs and illegals. According to reports, "hundreds of Somalis" with ties to "terror cells" have infiltrated the United States from Mexico. Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and kindred groups are all reported to be actively moving their members across the border. Trust me, these folks are not entering the United States illegally in order to get work in your neighbor's backyard.

With Wilson's reaction to Pancho Villa's pistoleros as precedent, President Obama has declined to be Wilsonian. He has refused to step up border enforcement. He and Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. have attacked the Arizona law, dishonestly claiming that it promotes racial profiling and is "anti-immigrant." They have filed one lawsuit to block enforcement of the law and have warned that if the initial litigation fails, they will likely bring another case on a different legal theory. The administration asserts, disingenuously, that reports of crime by illegals are exaggerated. Funding for a fence has been cut. The president has ordered 1,200 National Guard troops to the region, but only to perform "support functions."

Thus, Arizona's modest enforcement measures are under attack by the very federal government whose failure to secure the border precipitated their adoption. Is Arizona at the mercy of the Obama administration, or does it have some options here?

For one thing, Arizona can form and expand its own state militia. Such forces were common when our nation was founded, and the Second Amendment recognizes that a "well-regulated Militia" is "necessary to the security of a free State." In short, Arizona and other states can raise and arm their own military forces. But, for what purpose can such forces legally act?

The Constitution is informative here. In Article IV, Section 4, the federal government is required to "protect each [state] against Invasion; and [on request of the state government] against domestic Violence." As St. George Tucker noted, this provision guards against "the possibility of an undue partiality in the federal government," for example a "sectional" president who might, for political reasons, decline to protect states in a certain region. Today the federal government, at the direction of the president, has declined to carry out its duty under Article IV. Leaving aside its other possible consequences, this intentional failure to protect Arizona raises the question of what action the state is now entitled to take under the Constitution.

This brings us to Article I, Section 10, Clause 3, which provides that "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress ... engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

So, the militias organized and armed by a state may go to war when the state has been invaded or is in imminent danger. This is clear under Article I, and plainly justified when the federal government has deliberately failed to protect against invasion as required by Article IV. As Joseph Story explains in his treatise on the Constitution, the prohibition against states engaging in war is "wisely" limited by "exceptions sufficient for the safety of the states, and not justly open to the objection of being dangerous to the Union."

At the time of our nation's founding, the states surrendered certain limited powers to the federal government. Logically, foremost among the enumerated powers delegated to the new central authority were those relating to foreign affairs, including the war powers. But the states were prudent; they had a logical concern that if the federal government should fail in its duty to protect them from "invasion" or "imminent danger," perhaps for reasons of political "partiality," then the states should have a robust right to defend themselves, including by armed force. And so they do.

Ray Hartwell is a Navy veteran and a Washington lawyer.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/16/obama-lawsuit-invites-fortified-state-militia/print/


JM

0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jul, 2010 07:58 pm
@parados,
Quote:
The budget proposed by Price can be found here

http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Fy11RSCBudget_FINAL.pdf

It is an interesting read if you take the time to compare to the actual budget numbers here
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/pdf/hist.pdf


Price somehow assumes that next year the interest paid on the US debt will drop from 250 billion to 206 trillion.
He also assumes that there will be no changes to SS and Medicare benefits but those costs will grow at a much slower rate than is listed in the Obama budget documents.


I guess anyone can balance the budget if they just make up magic numbers without any sense of reality.

1. How does Price think we will decrease the interest paid on the debt by 43 billion dollars next year? Does he not realize that debt is sold on the open market?

2. How does Price propose to keep Medicare and SS costs down without making any changes to those programs? Why should we believe his numbers?


Thanks for the links, much obliged. Good questions too. We will probably be asking more. I for one must do some more reading.

There does seem to be, generally two schools of thought that would pursue different avenues of remedy for government debt. The first seems to be concerned with simply decreasing the deficit while maintaining the status quo of government size. The second is actually more concerned with decreasing the size of government itself.

The first touts more "efficient government" and cutting "waste and fraud" . The former being an oxymoron and the latter a relatively insignificant amount. So the only significant remedy left to bring down the difference is tax increases.

The second school of thought allows many more solutions even before tax increases have to be considered. First, smaller government (individual liberties aside) simply requires less money.

The first school restricts itself by requiring the status quo regarding government size and tends towards even larger government. Indeed, during the first year of the present Admin the feds hired more than 100K new employees. The second school requires some real world hard choices. Okie has already started asking the necessary question
Quote:
"Some serious questions for everyone, besides national defense, what does the federal government provide that is absolutely essential? "

The second school also looks to a "multiplier effect", but not the Keynesian variety. Rather, the Laffer effect (curve) in combination with the greater private sector growth effect when people control, save, and invest more of their own money.

But I must read Price to see what "magic" he has proposed. However, don't you think at some point in the next two election cycles the GOP could point to the Democrats' solution seen in the last 18 months and its results? Couldn't the conservatives in the party suggest that the country has tried the Obama/Pelosi/Reid method and found it wanting and that it might try something, well, different?

JM
 

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