McCain's character

Foofie wrote:

snood wrote:
Ragman wrote:
perhaps maybe even be a cat burglar or murder too? how absurd?! how is the act of infidelity to a spouse make him a no-good traitor or a spy?

It just goes to the whole concept of honoring one's word, Ragman - is that hard for you to understand? If someone will break a promise solemnly made to his/her spouse, what about public service would make him/her more likely to honor promises made in that arena?

I'll be as scientific as possible. The part of the brain that governs one's sexual urges is not the part of the brain that governs one's vocational decisions.

And, in history, Hitler's promise not to attack Russia was (Duh!) broken. I'd rather have a "cheatin'" President that would not be so naive to believe another head of state, "I promise never to attack." This loyalty you value may be the flip side of naivety.

What happens if two heads of state share a girlfriend?

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flaja wrote:

woiyo wrote:
This is all I need to know about a Man's character!

Awards, honors, and decorations

Military

* Silver Star
* Legion of Merit
* Bronze Star
* Purple Heart
* Distinguished Flying Cross[283]
* Prisoner of War Medal
* National Defense Service Medal
* Vietnam Service Medal
* Vietnam Campaign Medal (Republic of Vietnam)

Civilian

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

You got any of those?

You equate war with morality?

I thought you were discussing his character. Now you want to change the criteria to morality?

When you figure out exactly what you want to talk about, let me know.

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woiyo wrote:

flaja wrote:
woiyo wrote:
This is all I need to know about a Man's character!

Awards, honors, and decorations

Military

* Silver Star
* Legion of Merit
* Bronze Star
* Purple Heart
* Distinguished Flying Cross[283]
* Prisoner of War Medal
* National Defense Service Medal
* Vietnam Service Medal
* Vietnam Campaign Medal (Republic of Vietnam)

Civilian

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

You got any of those?

You equate war with morality?

I thought you were discussing his character. Now you want to change the criteria to morality?

When you figure out exactly what you want to talk about, let me know.

Since when is a man's morality and character not mutually dependent?

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See, these things:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Don't have anything to do with character at all. Just awards that he received. Not pertinent to the topic.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

See, these things:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Don't have anything to do with character at all. Just awards that he received. Not pertinent to the topic.

Cycloptichorn

So any a$$hole could just be awarded them? Do not go there Cyclo.

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woiyo wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
See, these things:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Don't have anything to do with character at all. Just awards that he received. Not pertinent to the topic.

Cycloptichorn

So any a$$hole could just be awarded them? Do not go there Cyclo.

Do YOU know the criteria for why Trinity College handed out their award? Or the Jewish Institute for World Affairs? Nope. So why do you think that awards show anything about someone's character?

Show me ACTIONS that he's taken, not awards he's been given.

Cycloptichorn

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flaja wrote:

woiyo wrote:
flaja wrote:
woiyo wrote:
This is all I need to know about a Man's character!

Awards, honors, and decorations

Military

* Silver Star
* Legion of Merit
* Bronze Star
* Purple Heart
* Distinguished Flying Cross[283]
* Prisoner of War Medal
* National Defense Service Medal
* Vietnam Service Medal
* Vietnam Campaign Medal (Republic of Vietnam)

Civilian

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

You got any of those?

You equate war with morality?

I thought you were discussing his character. Now you want to change the criteria to morality?

When you figure out exactly what you want to talk about, let me know.

Since when is a man's morality and character not mutually dependent?

It depends on your definition, I suppose.

Being awarded Medals of Valor means something to me as a Vet, maybe they mean nothing to you. The Silver Star, Bronze Star, DFC are not handed out to anyone. One has to have great character , disipline and strength of will and be very lucky get those honors.

It show me McCain is a man of great character.

War and morality to me are mutually exclusive.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
See, these things:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Don't have anything to do with character at all. Just awards that he received. Not pertinent to the topic.

Cycloptichorn

So any a$$hole could just be awarded them? Do not go there Cyclo.

Do YOU know the criteria for why Trinity College handed out their award? Or the Jewish Institute for World Affairs? Nope. So why do you think that awards show anything about someone's character?

Show me ACTIONS that he's taken, not awards he's been given.

Cycloptichorn

You have already seen the awards from the military. Recognition by other institutions also is an indication of a persons character. Just because you disagree with Trinity College and their criteria is irrelevant to me.

Do you want to compare ACTIONS of the candidates? Want to compare military accomplishments between the candidates? How about Senate records of the candidates?

Do not criticize McCain for his accomplishments and awards, just because you candidate lacks these life accomplishments.

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woiyo wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
See, these things:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]
* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]
* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.
* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]
* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Don't have anything to do with character at all. Just awards that he received. Not pertinent to the topic.

Cycloptichorn

So any a$$hole could just be awarded them? Do not go there Cyclo.

Do YOU know the criteria for why Trinity College handed out their award? Or the Jewish Institute for World Affairs? Nope. So why do you think that awards show anything about someone's character?

Show me ACTIONS that he's taken, not awards he's been given.

Cycloptichorn

You have already seen the awards from the military. Recognition by other institutions also is an indication of a persons character. Just because you disagree with Trinity College and their criteria is irrelevant to me.

Do you want to compare ACTIONS of the candidates? Want to compare military accomplishments between the candidates? How about Senate records of the candidates?

Do not criticize McCain for his accomplishments and awards, just because you candidate lacks these life accomplishments.

First, you will note that I didn't include his military awards in my list, so we agree there.

And please understand; I'm not criticizing McCain for these things. They are good things. But they don't really tell us much about his character.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

* On May 24, 1999, McCain shared the Profile in Courage Award with fellow Senator Russ Feingold for their work in trying to enact campaign finance reform.[139]

Meaning that McCain doesn't respect the Constitution which says that Congress may not make any law that abridges freedom of speech, freedom of the press or the right to peacefully assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances. Telling Americans which political candidates they can and cannot support with financial contributions is unconstitutional.

Quote:

* In December 2004, McCain became an Honorary Patron of the University Philosophical Society at Trinity College Dublin.[284]

So?

Quote:

* On September 28, 2005, The Eisenhower Institute awarded McCain the Eisenhower Leadership Prize.[285] The prize recognizes individuals whose lifetime accomplishments reflect Dwight D. Eisenhower's legacy of integrity and leadership.

So one adulterer gets an award from another. Big deal.

Quote:

* On December 5, 2006, McCain was awarded the Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs.[286]

Again so?

Quote:

* On February 13, 2007, the World Leadership Forum presented McCain with the Policymaker of the Year Award. The award is given internationally to someone who has "created, inspired or strongly influenced important policy or legislation."[287]

Considering McCain's habit of supporting left-wing legislation, him getting a policymaker award doesn't mean a thing to me.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Show me ACTIONS that he's taken, not awards he's been given.

McCain-Kerry
McCain-Kennedy
McCain-Feingold
Opposition to GWB's tax cuts
Opposition to the Freedom to Farm Act of 1996 (which ended milk price supports)

And then there is:

McCain's support for fellow-adulterer John Tower when George H. W. Bush nominated Tower to be Secretary of Defense;

The Keating Five when McCain intervened with an independent regulatory agency on behalf of a man who had given campaign contributions to McCain;

McCain's accepting contributions in 1997 from corporation which were regulated by the Senate Commerce Committee, which was chaired by McCain.

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I'm not really a 'sanctity of marriage' person, but then again, buy the ticket take the ride. And in Clinton's case it wasn't one taboo or another, to college kids it's like 'hey he's a pimp' and to family-values types it's like they stayed together and he sought spiritual counseling. It was dignity that he cost the nation that elected him that can't be forgiven.

In McCain's case - he was more or less upfront about it, got an amicable divorce, no squabbling, and he had one hell of a life changing event after the marriage. I find it admirable that he just did his own thing - you've got people saying he stayed in the Hannoi Hilton cuz he knew he'd have a career afterward and yet he got a divorce instead of keeping up appearances.

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flaja wrote:

McCain's support for fellow-adulterer John Tower when George H. W. Bush nominated Tower to be Secretary of Defense;

The reason why I believe this continued concern with who is, or is not, an adulterer, is based on ignoring one fact. Some of us are monogamous, some of us are polygamous. Just like the animal kingdom.

However, it seems that the monogamous amongst us wrote the laws relating to marriage, and even got religions to accept the parameters.

So, the polygamous amongst us do marry, but then wander sometimes. This propensity to polygamy has nothing whatsoever to do with one's moral character, truthfulness, executive ability, etc. It is a false premise to believe fidelity affects anything beyond fidelity.

Now, the response in this thread to the above thought has equated adultery to dishonesty, since married people made marriage vows. Well, there is a large population, in the entire country, of gays in the closet, leading a double life, and being quite dishonest, in effect, with all they meet, since they want to be seen as heterosexuals. This dishonesty is beyond being dishonest to one's spouse, but dishonesty to all straights. I wonder if the individuals willing to condemn the Republican McCain for supposed adultery would also condemn homosexuals in the closet? I say this because being pro-gay rights is a standard Democratic Party pronouncement, yet a large part of its gay constituency are leading a quite dishonest persona. Does anyone see the hypocrisy of many anti-McCain Democrats?

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The thing that is in McCain's favor is that today his EX says that she adores John McCain. I think that in the scope of things that McCain is a damn good guy, his problem is that as far as character goes Obama is even better.

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hawkeye10 wrote:

The thing that is in McCain's favor is that today his EX says that she adores John McCain. I think that in the scope of things that McCain is a damn good guy, his problem is that as far as character goes Obama is even better.

The thought that, "as far as character goes Obama is even better" is based on what? Also, Presidents don't perform their duties based on character; knowledge and experience are what counts.

W.C. Fields had character too.

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Her opinion of McCain now only matters if she is going to be a Cabinet member. Otherwise..it means squat!

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Ragman wrote:

Her opinion of McCain now only matters if she is going to be a Cabinet member. Otherwise..it means squat!

It does to me because my problem with adultery is not the sex, it is the cheating on a spouse, the not honoring of commitments. The fact that she feels so fondly of him tells me that to some extent he dealt with the situation with honor, which speaks to his character. I am also on record as saying that character matters to me, I don't elect a manager, I elect the one who I want as my leader.

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You confuse me: if someone cheated on their wife, then they had sex and that IS after all what you are objecting to; however, that is a digression.

We discussed this issue already ..and your point just is not valid. There just is no correlation to upholding marital vows and maintaining an oath in the political office.

There might be that criteria in your mind. Feel free to vote as you wish based on this criteria, but be aware that not many of the better Presidents at least in this century have maintained their marital vows 100%. Truman and Nixon and possibly Gerry Ford might be the exception.

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Ragman wrote:

You confuse me: if someone cheated on their wife, then they had sex and that IS after all what you are objecting to; however, that is a digression.

What he's saying is if the sex is consented to by the spouse, it's not cheating; thus his issue is not sex outside of marriage, it's cheating on one's spouse.

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ok

Still, my point stands.

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McCain's character

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