may/might

Hi Mc Tag

I don't know what you're tallking about.

Hi Mc Tag

I don't know what you're tallking about. Could you please elaborate?

Regards

Hi Contrex

I would like to apologise for posting my query which has resulted in so much verbal attacks between you and JTT.

Don't worry about that at all, YL. Contrex is a big boy and so am I. There's nothing personal here.

Although I agree with your reply, I, being a non-native speaker, cannot add much to the discussion.

contrex wrote:

Jtt, you are just digging a bigger hole for yourself with your ill punctuated ungrammatical nonsense. You don't know the difference between the "may" and "might" of possibility and the "may" and "might" of capability.

How can you agree with Contrex's reply. He hasn't said anything that proves his point.

I can only say that 'may' relates to the present and 'might' the past. That is what I was taught.

That's absolutely false, YL. You seem like you really want to learn English and learn more about English, but if you simply accept old prescriptions, old falsehoods about the language, then how can you really advance?

Notice that Contrex hasn't risen to the challenge of providing any examples of 'might' as the past tense of 'may' If it were so, the examples would be myriad.

As for the usage of 'may' and 'might' to indicate possibitly, the former implies less possibility and the latter greater possibiltiy. That is what I remember reading in English usage books.

You have made a small slipup here, YL. You have the meanings of the two words mixed up. 'might' states a weaker possibility and 'may' a stronger possibility.

Jtt, you are just digging a bigger hole for yourself with your ill punctuated ungrammatical nonsense. You don't know the difference between the "may" and "might" of possibility and the "may" and "might" of capability.

Etymology 1

Old English magan, from Germanic. Cognate with Dutch mogen, German mögen, Icelandic mega.

1. (modal auxiliary verb, defective verb) To have permission to. Used in granting permission and in questions to make polite requests.

You may smoke outside.
May I sit there?

2. (modal auxiliary verb, defective verb) Possibly, but not certainly.

He may be lying.

3. (subjunctive present, defective verb) Expressing something that is possibly true.

come what may

Usage notes

* May is a defective verb. It has no infinitive, past participle and no future tense. Forms of to be allowed to are used to replace these missing tenses.

*The simple past (both indicative and subjunctive) of may is might

* The present tense is negated as may not, which can be contracted to mayn't, although this is old-fashioned; the simple past is negated as might not, which can be contracted to mightn't.)

* May has archaic second-person singular present indicative forms mayest and mayst.

* Usage of this word in the sense of possibly is considered incorrect by some speakers and writers, as it blurs the meaning of the word in the sense have permission to. These speakers and writers prefer to use the word might instead.

The past tense of may is might. People get confused about this because might can also be used in the present tense, to indicate less probability than may or more formality.

Present:

John: "May I be excused?".
Teacher: "You may"

Past:

John asked the teacher if he might be excused, and was told that he might.

Now, JTT can huff and puff all he likes, but the fact remains that it is so, and he is just plain wrong to deny it.

More foot stamping doesn't help you on the grammar/language front, Contrex.

We backshift for reported speech to show that it IS reported speech, not to state that any past tense/past action has occurred.

How do you explain that we can report your example as a direct quote?

John asked the teacher, "May I be excused?"?

If this is a past tense, as you suggest, then it should describe the action, which is what past tenses do, correct?

??? John might be excused. ???

Let's look at another in which it will be easier to see and understand this important distinction.

Jill: I want to go to Contrex's house.

Jack: [to Bill] What did Jill say?

Bill: She said that she wanted to go to Contrex's house.

Has she gone to Contrex's house? No.

Does the backshift to wanted tell us there has been an event that is now finished? No.

Would we describe the 'going to Contrex's house', if it ever happened with,

"She wanted to go to Contrex's house"? No, we most certainly would not.

How would we describe the actual finished event? With,

She went to Contrex's house.

How do you explain that Bill doesn't need to backshift, that he can report Jill's speech with a present tense FORM verb, as in,

Bill: She said that she wants to go to Contrex's house.

Would you now suggest to us that 'wants' is a past tense?


Wiktionary puts it as well as any:

Quote:

Usage notes

*The simple past (both indicative and subjunctive) of may is might

"He may go to London.

Past tense: He might go to London. *

[* denotes ungrammatical for the situation]"

I don't really want to get involved in this, lacking the stamina, but that seem a bit weird to me.
It's certainly not past tense, is it?

Past tense would be "He might have gone to London" or something similar.

McTag, there are two different meanings of may/might which are being confused here. I have tried to get this across to JTT without much success.

1. The most commonly understood contemporary use of these words is to express past, present or future possibility:

I may/might have visited Manchester; I cannot remember.

Contrex, truly, with no rancor, it is you who is confused, terribly so. But that's not surprising. It's funny how even old falsehoods can be perceived as the truth just because we want to believe them.

You state something and then when I ask you to illustrate, discuss what you mean you run from it.

All the modals, even the purported present tense modals can be used to talk about past events. Note your example with 'may'.

You've used the modal perfect here, I suspect without even realizing what you've done.

Your examples still don't show that might is the past tense of may. When we try to use it as such we create ungrammatical examples.

I may visit Manchester.

Past tense: *I might visit Manchester.*

[* denotes ungrammatical for the situation]

2. Another, possibly mainly BrE, probably a little old fashioned use is to express past or present capability - either that conferred by permission or by circumstances. This is the one that I am having trouble getting JTT to accept, or (I suspect) comprehend.

I am more than eighteen years old; I may purchase alcohol legally in Britain.

I was so glad when I turned seventeen and might[or could] legally drive a car on public roads.

This doesn't state a past tense, Contrex. As you noted, 'might' is a bit old fashioned and 'could' often substitutes for it. Why? Because they share the same meaning. They both describe a condition that has come to be habitual.

Let's try to make them do what a past tense does. First, a real past tense.

Bill: I'm going to jump.

[Bill jumps]

Bill: I jumped.

Contrex: I was so glad when I turned seventeen and might[or could] legally drive a car on public roads. I remember that first day. *I might drive my friends all over the place.* My dad asked me to get him some tobacco from the store so *I could drive to the store.*


John was so happy when Jane's father said "You may court my daughter". Years later he asked her, "Do you remember the day your father said I might court you?"

McTag wrote:

"He may go to London.

Past tense: He might go to London. *

[* denotes ungrammatical for the situation]"

I don't really want to get involved in this, lacking the stamina, but that seem a bit weird to me.
It's certainly not past tense, is it?

Past tense would be "He might have gone to London" or something similar.

Clearly, it isn't, McTag. But note that might is only describing an opinion about whether he went to London or not. 'may' can do the same thing.

"He may have gone to London".

Or I could be wrong*, as in

"Last week, he asked if he might go to London."

* or rather, not comprehensive enough.

Hi JTT

It suddenly dawned on me that I should make use of the dictionaries to find out whether the past tense of 'may' is 'might'. I've found the following and I think the dictionary cannot be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yup, YL, both you and the dictionary are mistaken. That's been the problem for a good long time and it's sad that it only affects ESLs. ENLs don't/can't make use of this "rule" because it's nonsense as far as English is concerned, ie. it isn't how English works.

Main Entry:1might
Pronunciation:\ˈmīt\
Function:verbal auxiliary
Etymology:Middle English, from Old English meahte, mihte; akin to Old High German mahta, mohta could
Date:before 12th century
past of may


in the past <the president might do nothing without the board's consent>


Best wishes.