The Media Creation that is Obama

ANYway,

Thanks for the very substantive stuff Butrfly. I still hold out hope that some folks here might even read it.

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okie wrote:

Look at all the informed voters reading the signs in regard to Obama's proposals and beliefs. I am sure all of these people can tell you what Obama has accomplished and what he is proposing to do when he becomes president.

Yeah, because anybody who ever attends a political rally, or even cheers at one, cant possibly be informed.

My guess is that most of the people there were as well-informed as your typical A2Ker. Which I guess means some more than others.

Anyway, I came here to post Steven Pearlstein's article, There's the Beef - but I see that Butrflynet beat me to it.

Now if one's concern with Obama is that he's a liberal and offers liberal-type answers and proposals - like is the case with Okie, who will deride any liberal proposals as empty talk - then no, the article wont alleviate your fears.

But anyone who's still going on, like rabel22, about how all those Obama supporters know "is that he is the second coming of Christ," or about how all he does is "parrot the words change, change," and that "he doesnt deal in specifics" -- anyone like that should read that article.

Hopefully, they'll find out that beyond their prejudices, there's actually a whole lot of specific info available, in Obama papers, proposals and, yes, speeches (take the hour of wonkery he offered up after his Wisconsin victory, for example).

If all you've gotten about Obama is a mantra of "change, change" and nothing else, I'm sorry, you just havent been looking. It's out there, really, the information - right on his website, which has been visited by millions, and right in his speeches if you actually listen to the whole thing and not just five minutes.

Why people are too lazy to bother to find out, but not too lazy to make a judgement about the guy based on the soundbites they see on the TV news, I dont know, but its getting pretty annoying.

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All his proposals are general. No specifics on how he'll get them passed or how he'll pay for them. Have any of you wondered how he will form a government with the small amount of experience he has. Like Bush he will gather a bunch of crooked establishment politicians around him and they will eat him alive. Like most educated people he dosent realize how over his head he is in washington. But keep on hoping. Maybe in ten or twelve years he may come into his adulthood.

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blatham wrote:

phoenix

Krauthammer is, as walter notes, an absolutely untrustworthy voice here because of his is deep political affiliations and partisan ideas.

To use him as a source is precisely comparable to taking James Carville's words about Giuliani as accurate or balanced or unbiased or truthful. That would be foolish.

phoenix

You fool. Don't your realize that you cannot find truth and substance in the thoughs of a conservative when they are directed towards a liberal?

Blatham may acknowledge that all Liberal voices may not be trusted beyond partisan notions, but you are, obviously, free to consider wisdom where you find it.

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rabel22 wrote:

Like most educated people he dosent realize how over his head he is in washington.

Hillary went to Yale. Bill Clinton went to Oxford and Yale. But in the case of Obama it is a cause for concern that he is "educated people"? When's the last time there was a Democratic nominee who wasnt?

rabel22 wrote:

Like Bush he will gather a bunch of crooked establishment politicians around him and they will eat him alive.

Which of the Democratic candidates has so far best succeeded in building a reliable, effective, disciplined and united campaign team, Obama or Hillary? What do you think that says about their respective skills in recruiting and managing the right people?

rabel22 wrote:

Have any of you wondered how he will form a government with the small amount of experience he has. [..] But keep on hoping. Maybe in ten or twelve years he may come into his adulthood.

Obama is exactly as old now as Bill Clinton was in 1992. Do you think Bill should have waited ten years too?

And how much more experience does Hillary have than Obama?

She's been a US Senator for seven years, and before becoming a professional "wife of" as First Lady, had a career of 18 years as lawyer, political activist and consultant, and Board member of various organisations and the occasional corporate company (WalMart).

He's been a US Senator for three years, a State Senator for eight years, and before that had a career of 13 years as community organizer, attorney, and lecturer of constitutional law.

Both reputable careers; I dont see a great deal of difference there.

The only real difference is in her years as "Wife of the President". How much will that have helped her? Her only main personal initiative in those years, health care reform, became a big failure. When it comes to Bill's policies, she claims credit for the successes (Kosovo) but acts like she had nothing to do with the stuff thats not popular anymore (Nafta); while refusing to talk (or release papers) about what role exactly she did play. So what do we know?

In the meantime, she did experience what it is like to be the target of vicious rightwing attacks. But she's also been damaged greatly by them; fair or not, almost half of Americans now say they just wont vote for her. Bringing up this argument is like saying you'd better vote for the damaged goods, because the other guy will likely only end up just as damaged anyway. At worst, that's defeatism; at best, it's a realistic assessment. But either way it doesnt give one a positive reason to vote for Hillary.

Seems like a fairly mixed extra on her CV, those years, all in all.

rabel22 wrote:

All his proposals are general. No specifics on how he'll get them passed or how he'll pay for them.

If you are interested, he has proposals about how to raise revenues, too.

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I salute your patience, nimh.

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Yes I saw his statement as to how he would pay for his policies. He would use the Iraq war money to pay for them. However the Iraq war funding is borrowed money. So his "change" is to spend borrowed money. Great planing!

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When you borrow money from a bank it is not like you don't have pay for it until you get the money. You have to make payments and pay interest and stuff.

Quote:

American taxpayers have already spent $415 billion on interest for the portion of the war costs the government has had to borrow, the CBO estimated. Between now and 2017, interest costs to finance the wars will amount up to between $175 billion and $290 billion, the CBO estimated, depending on the U.S. troop levels maintained in Iraq and Afghanistan.

source

While it is true we are going to have to continue to pay for this borrowed money way past our generation; we already paying on it now as well which is why it is affecting our economy. If we stay in the war; the cost is going to keep going up as we borrow more money; if leave then we will save money that we haven't borrowed yet and that money that we are paying right now can spent on other things.

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Talk about circular thinking. We are 6 trillion dollars in debt. The debt worsens by the hour. If the Iraq war ends we will still be in debt and will be paying interest on that debt. Ending the war dosent lower the debt. We have to borrow money if we want to increase spending. In order to have universal health coverage we will have to borrow or increase someones taxes. Whos taxes does Obama say he is going to increase? I've noticed he dosent talk much about that. Smart politician who knows talk of increasing taxes is bad politics.

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He's stated quite clearly the other night that he intends to put an end to the big fat tax breaks given to corporations and the wealthy. How many gazillions will that be?

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I seem to remember Bush saying the same thing. Promise them anything necessary to get there then screw them blind. And old political mantra.

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Now you're making things up. George Bush Jr. NEVER said that. He was always far too dependent on big business and his wealthy constituency to dare say anything even close to that. Perhaps you're getting him confused with his daddy and the "read my lips no new taxes" line.

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rabel22 wrote:

Yes I saw his statement as to how he would pay for his policies. He would use the Iraq war money to pay for them.

Well, considering we're spending $230 million a day now in Iraq even according to the Pentagon's own estimations (according to the NYT it's more like $548 million a day), that will surely help, no? I mean, for the money you spent every single day in Iraq, you could get immunizations for respectively half or all of the world's children against measles, whooping cough, tetanus, tuberculosis, polio and diphteria.

But Obama has also proposed to roll back many of the Bush tax cuts (specifically the enormous tax cuts he has given to the wealthiest). And he's proposed to lift the cap for Social Security tax above the current level, where it applies only to the first $97,500 worth of income. 6% of Americans make more than $97,000, and they dont have to pay Social Security taxes over the money they earn above that - Obama has proposed changing that.

But we're also not discussing Obama's plans in isolation. There's him and Hillary Clinton - those are the two available candidates on the Democratic side, and then there's John McCain. You're a Hillary supporter, right? You've dismissed the supporters of Obama as just believers in the second coming of Christ, who dont need any specifics - they just worship him regardless. Hillary supporters are different, apparently - you do care about specifics. So can you say something about what Hillary would do to save money that Obama isnt proposing?

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nimh wrote:

rabel22 wrote:
Yes I saw his statement as to how he would pay for his policies. He would use the Iraq war money to pay for them.

Well, considering we're spending $230 million a day now in Iraq even according to the Pentagon's own estimations

Hungary is kicking in to help pay? Cool.

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nimh wrote:

rabel22 wrote:
Yes I saw his statement as to how he would pay for his policies. He would use the Iraq war money to pay for them.

Well, considering we're spending $230 million a day now in Iraq even according to the Pentagon's own estimations (according to the NYT it's more like $548 million a day), that will surely help, no? I mean, for the money you spent every single day in Iraq, you could get immunizations for respectively half or all of the world's children against measles, whooping cough, tetanus, tuberculosis, polio and diphteria.

But Obama has also proposed to roll back many of the Bush tax cuts (specifically the enormous tax cuts he has given to the wealthiest). And he's proposed to lift the cap for Social Security tax above the current level, where it applies only to the first $97,500 worth of income. 6% of Americans make more than $97,000, and they dont have to pay Social Security taxes over the money they earn above that - Obama has proposed changing that.

But we're also not discussing Obama's plans in isolation. There's him and Hillary Clinton - those are the two available candidates on the Democratic side, and then there's John McCain. You're a Hillary supporter, right? You've dismissed the supporters of Obama as just believers in the second coming of Christ, who dont need any specifics - they just worship him regardless. Hillary supporters are different, apparently - you do care about specifics. So can you say something about what Hillary would do to save money that Obama isnt proposing?

There is now Nader to choose from as well Nimh.

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If Hillary gets the nomination, I will vote for Nimh then. Thanks.

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nappyheadedhohoho wrote:

nimh wrote:
Well, considering we're spending $230 million a day now in Iraq even according to the Pentagon's own estimations

Hungary is kicking in to help pay? Cool.

Ha! Uhm. Yes, you caught me there.

You're spending $230 million a day now in Iraq - at least. There, better. :wink:

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Getting back to Obama, one does not get to be president of the Harvard Law Review without outstanding ability.

He wrote two books by himself, which the other Dem candidate cannot claim. He has detailed positions on over 20 issues, most of which would clearly improve the country.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

snood wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
this morning on the diane Reams show one of the pundits referred to "We educated class support Obama." Two words. elitisit c**t.

I watched the debate today and Obama is likable enough and seems a serious guy. It's his elitist wanna be supporters that I really can't stomach.

Hillary btw, brought down the house with her closing remark. It was the highlight of the debate and of course was either glossed over or reported as a sign that Hillary has conceded the election. :roll

I was interested snood, to hear that in the service you're a pharmacist. I guess that's because only men are allowed in combat positions.

Wow! I mean WOW!

Jeez, I've no particular fondness for snood, but I seriously doubt I ever hit him so hard, or so below the belt.

This is the kind of **** bipo generally reserves for right-wing miscreants like me.

So, even though we know we are in the heat of the moment we probably should look around us and consider what the hell is this all about?

This is not to say, at all, that bipo's shots are misguided. I'll leave that judgment to others, since it's very very hard for me to cast snood in the role of the victim.

Maybe it's about who is full of **** (liberal or conservative) and who is not.

Shouldn't the ability to (God, I can't believe I am about to use this phrase) tell it like it is trump silly ass political posturing?

So the people who can't stand smug and sanctimonious horse **** might find themselves on the same side irrespective of their political ideology.

But then, maybe not.

God I love this thing!

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Finn:

Good point.

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The Media Creation that is Obama

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