"The Mindless Menace of Violence"

OK, Rebecca:
here is the critique that I promised,
maybe a little late.
( In fairness, it shud be borne in mind
that I have always held the Kennedys in abhorence
since I first campaigned against them in 1960 and thay stole that election in Texas and Chicago. )

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On the Mindless Menace of Violence

City Club of Cleveland, Cleveland, Ohio
April 5, 1968

This is a time of shame and sorrow.
It is not a day for politics.
I have saved this one opportunity, my only event of today,
to speak briefly to you about the mindless menace of violence
in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

In other words:
LUCKY U !

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It is not the concern of any one race.
The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old,
famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings
whom other human beings loved and needed. No one - no matter where
he lives or what he does - can be certain who will suffer from some
senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on and on in this country of ours.

Obviously.
The world has always been a predatory environment,
since ( and before ) the dawn of man.
If violence simply ended,
that wud be an ASTONISHING and very unexpected development,
after millions of years of contrary experience.

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Why? What has violence ever accomplished?

Well, let 's c:
Where to begin ?
How about when David took out Goliath ?

The Kennedys are a Boston, Mass. family ( or is it Hyanisport ? )
How do thay feel about Mass. having sent troops to violently invade
the Southern states when thay withdrew from the Union in 1861 ? Right or rong ? Good or bad ?
Violent or peaceful ?
Did the Mass. troops carry muskets or flowers n chocolate for the Confederates ?

How did the Kennedys feel about the American response to Pearl Harbor ?
P.T. 109 ?

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What has it ever created?

How about the United States of America
( from which he accepted the office of Senator )
being born of George Washington 's success at the Battle of Yorktown, Virginia. ?
Washington pounded the English fort with violent artillery for 3 weeks
and took their Redoubt #10 violently with bayonets,
causing the English Lord Cornwallis to surrender in the last battle of the American Revolution.

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No martyr's cause has ever been stilled by an assassin's bullet.

Well, how about the federal assassinations of martyr Vicki Weaver
( who was shot to death by a federal sniper in the front doorway
of her home on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, as she held her baby in her arms )
and 14 year old martyr Sam Weaver, whom the federal murderers shot in the back,
as he ran for home as the federal thugs were enforcing an unconstitutional gun control law.
Thay were martyrs to freedom and their cause was defeated;
( tho their survivor, Randy Weaver, was awarded about a million dollars ).

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No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders.
A sniper is only a coward, not a hero;

That depends on the sniper 's target.

If Gavrilo Princip had been successfully sniped b4 he started WWI,
or if Karl Marx had been sniped b4 he spread his poison, starting WWIII,
millions of lives wud have been saved.

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and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of reason.

Whenever any American's life is taken by another American unnecessarily - whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of the law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence - whenever we tear at the fabric of the life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.

"Among free men," said Abraham Lincoln, "there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their cause and pay the costs."

Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike.
We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far-off lands.

Maybe he 'd like to sneak tranquilizers into the public water supply ??
or
with the birth of each baby implant a computer chip and a modem in his brain
to render him a docile servant of government ??
Like the Borg ??

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We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment.

He 'd like to repeal the First Amendment ??
Freedom never meant anything to the Kennedys; thay held it in contempt.

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We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire whatever weapons and ammunition they desire.

We do not " make it easy "; we merely acknowledge that criminals
of all shades of sanity can and will arm themselves, if such be their choice,
and short of killing them beforehand, there is NOTHING that can prevent it,
the same way that no one cud be prevented from getting alcohol
when his grandfather was a rum runner during the 1920s, or now as to marijuana.
The law of supply n demand is the Supeme Law of the Land; ( to say nothing of the Bill of Rights ).

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First let me say David - that you seem to be the old DAVID again!
The one that I first encountered when you were using large and colorful fonts
and being really, really funny, and YES- somewhat ECCENTRIC!

I have it on good authority, from people who shud know
( starting with my mother ) that such is the case.
I 've been described as being " like someone from another planet "
to " a pisser "; maybe a few other things.

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I think retirement agrees with you!!.

Yeah; I 'm just starting to recover from those last 3 weeks in chambers;
really exhausted; hard to stay awake.

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Your last post made me laugh in so many spots -
I think it should be entered into the running for that splendiferous post thread
I saw a while back (whatever happened to that?
People and threads and stuff just seem to DISAPPEAR around here).

Well, people have the adventures of their own lives that take them away,
as I was gone for those weeks at work.

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But a lot of what you said may only be funny to me - I don't know -
I appreciated your humor though. Thank you.

U r too kind

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The thread did start out to be about violence and Robert Kennedy's speech-
and you were supposed to come back with your take on that after you got some rest,

Check my last post.

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but by that time it had turned into being about why I liked England better than the US,
and stories about cider, and then it turned into why I left England in the first place -
and then it turned into questions on English/British attitudes toward the Revolutionary War
and then it was about WWI and me wanting you and Endy to be friends...
and now it's about.... who knows...but that's just ME and my conversational style - especially when you're around.

Remember when Snood brought us to task for that way back when?

Yeah.
I don 't know Y I don 't recognize more AUTHORITY in him.

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Anyway - I don't know how most women feel.

Gonna ask them ?

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I do know it seems that I travel more alone (and always have) spend more time outside alone,
eat in restaurants more alone, go to movies more alone

R there any differences u 've noticed
between American and English restaurants n movies ?

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(once I not only went to a movie alone, but I was the only person in the whole theater!
Can you imagine that?

Yeah; that happened to me once about 35 years ago at mid day.

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No one else I told about it had ever had that experience) than almost any of the women I know.
And since I like to and do do a lot of things alone,
I like to feel that I can be by myself and still feel safe.

I felt that way when I was 8,
until I got my first gun; a .38 revolver.
I felt pretty good then.

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I'm not a scaredy cat David.
Most people who know me think I'm pretty much the opposite of that.

Yeah; u seemed pretty brave to me in the restaurants.

David

Did u say something about ignorance being bliss, recently ?

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sad that I can't feel safe to do what I want where I want,
when I want and how I want-

Do u believe that American women in general
join u in that emotional state of mind ?
How about your mother in NJ ?
Your sisters ?
Female neighbors or co-workers ?

Tho, of course, I take u at your word,
I don 't recall my female acquaintances giving voice to that complaint.

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happy that I know there's somewhere else where I believe things are a little better.

Your prior posts have left no room for doubt
as to your fondness for England.
Accordingly, u certainly shud spend your life there
in an effort to fill your life with joy.
( The English accents get under my skin
and drive me nuts, after a while. )

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There's nothing objective about it,
except that I do think that my feelings are based in realistic and rational observations.

Does that include the skyrocketing violent English crime ?
A recently retired English police officer, ( whose name I don 't remember )
of fairly hi rank, wrote complaining of being forced on-the-job
to employ deceptive means of gathering statistics
to conceal the upsurge in violent English felonies;
for instance: counting multiple felonies committed on several victims
at the same time and place, as ONE crime;
the police officer felt abused,
forced to prostitute himself into fraud
to make English gun prohibition look not as bad as reality indicated,
in terms of effecting more crime and more bloody English victims.

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I don't think I'm delusional or making any of this up.

That question has never arisen.

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That's it-exactly- in a nutshell.
I feel free to do what I want, where I want, when and how I want
without having to worry about my safety. I really, really do.

So stipulated, qua your feelings.
U might consider giving Las Vegas a shot, b4 u leave.

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I feel less constricted in England, in almost every way.

U told us about walking ( I prefer cabs );
does that apply to any other English activities ?

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I think people are more able to see past their own views and needs and are committed to the idea that it's good to include or at least consider the views and needs of others there, more than they are here. I do think there is more of a committment to community there.

I imagine that 's how Tony Blair got elected.

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Even down to letting people be who they are.

Well, that 's more individualistic,
as distinct from the communitarianism which u just extolled.

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But that's how it is as a rule in England.
People just let you be who you are- eccentricity is celebrated.

So if, in a more intense effort to feel even SAFER
than u already feel in England, u opt to carry a small .38 revolver
in your purse, during your English travels,
thay will CELEBRATE ?

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Here people say, "Dang, that's weird," and wrinkle up their noses with distaste-
and that's the end of that - no more chances for that person.

I have lived in NY for a long time.

I have never personally seen that happen,
and I freely discuss off-the-beaten-path topics all the time,
like ESP, return from death in hospitals, vertebrate paleontology,
cosmology and quantum mechanics
reconciled with Einstein's Relativity Theory in 11 dimensions, etc.

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Anyway - I just remembered that I was really surprised (and a little mad)

Do u get that from your Dad ?

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at some comments you made on one of your threads a while back.
I can't remember what they were now -

If u succeed in indentifying them,
it 'd be fun to analyse them for their merits or lack thereof.

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I just remember it was on a thread you started on Christmas day.

I hope that I was not unChristmasy

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That's the first time I said to myself,
"That doesn't sound like something the David I know would say."

Well, a zebra has more than one stripe.
( If he had only one stripe, wud that make him a skunk ? )

Possibly, it cud have been a misunderstanding,
or a factual disagreement. The paucity of specific information
disables analysis, until it is supplemented.

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You said it to Endy.
I just want you to know that I think you guys would like each other if you met.
I haven't met Endy- but I've met you and I think you should let Endy
see the real you David. You know you're a nice guy- let him see that.

Anything cud be possible.
I bear him no ill will.
I have no memory of any earlier contact.
It did not occur to me to chase him away.

Sometimes I can be surly.

Endymion wrote:

i think kids should be protected from adult fantasy and 'make believe' as much as possible.

Thay have as much right to be informed as u do.

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The Death Wish films are the real insult to intelligence.

How ?
What insult ?

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Certificate 18 - and for good reason.

For protection.

What the hell does THAT mean ?
If someone steals your car ( or any other property )
and says that it s for your protection,
does that make OK ?
I don 't think so.

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Apart from the graphic rape scene in death wish II
(which i would consider child abuse to show a kid) -
revenge is a mug's game.

What does THAT mean ?
What is a mug ?

Everyone must decide for himself whether to execute revenge
and chance the consequences.

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A perversely negative Ouroboros,
destroying itself by becoming the very thing it set out initially to defeat.

Bronson never became what he set out to defeat.
He defeated what he sought out
( for a limited time, until the police ran him out of town; then he took up the same elsewhere ).

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Maybe some parents want more for their kids than miss-placed hero worship

The kids and everyone else,
of every age, are all free to believe whatever thay opt to believe,
and to worship whatever or whoever thay choose.
Everyone of any age is sovereign n autonomous between the ears.

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combined with self righteousness that deceives the weak
into thinking they can get away with murder/playing god.

WhatayaMEAN " deceives " ??
Have u proof that it cant happen ?

It was not murder.
He was ready to defend himself
( and in so doing, the REST of us, too ).
He was much more valuable to public safety than the police were.

If that happened in real life, I 'd CHEER.

He put the police to shame, by comparison.
He was a better deterent to violent criminals than thay were.
The criminals who Bronson had interred, were deterred PERMANENTLY.

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That they have the right to inflict their suffering onto others.

Yes; the right of revenge; of getting even.
There 's nothing rong with that.

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Anyway, the central character is a fake

It was not presented as having been a true story.
Many movies are not.

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If he'd really had a death wish
he would have stuck the gun in his own mouth and blown his own brains out.

Any chance that the wish for death
was against the bad guys
( like the ones who attacked his wife n child )
and that he carried out his wish ?

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The man was having a paddy.

What the hell 's a paddy ?

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He was out of control.

Under whose CONTROL do u want him to BE ?

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A police marksman would have brought him down for sure, in reality.

Nonsense.
He had no snipers aiming at him,
nor did he do anything rong.

He defended himself from violent depredations,
after enticing them, killing many violent criminals
and serving a very valuable purpose for the rest of us.
If the story were TRUE, then I 'd be very grateful to him.

He 'd have been much more valuable than most politicians.

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He went on a killing spree to distract himself from the painful reality.

Yes; he DID have fun with it,
but in the execution thereof, he made society much safer
for the rest of us. If it had been true,
how many violent felonies wud have been prevented
by the criminals being too dead to commit them ????????????

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He became what he despised rather than face his own grief.

Nonsense.
He did NOT become what he despised,
because he did not kill innocent, decent people.

Each of those criminals was a DANGER;
he extinguished those dangers.

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What a baby.

U thought he was too young ?
Well, maybe, but he made up for youth by his bravery.

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If he'd really loved the victims whose deaths are flaunted as an excuse,

U accuse him of hypocrisy ?
I do not remember him alleging that he loved anyone.
He merely acted upon his beliefs
( more than most folks do ).

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he would have honored them
by protecting others from similar violent death - not by dishing out more of it.

That is a really STUPID thing to say
( which is the reason that Edgar agrees with u )
that if Bronson loved,
then he wud AGREE with your cowardice.

Incidentally, " protecting others from similar violent death "
is absolutely impossible.

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I think it takes a brave man to feel the pain of injustice and deal with it inside
Endy

( Lemme get this straight: u think that if a man is NOT brave,
then it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to feel the pain of injustice ??
Therefore, cowards are immune to the pain of injustice ?
If the pain of injustice is inflicted upon a coward
[e.g., if someone unjustly slices off one of a coward 's ears] he will be unable to feel it ? )

Our hero, Bronson dealt with it
inside and outside.

Your post is very poorly reasoned, Endy.
David

WhatayaTHINK, Rebecca ?

David

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WhatayaTHINK, Rebecca ?

David

I think I should have minded my own business.
Seriously. And as soon as I brought up any of that old unpleasantness,
which I did in my post to you, I regretted it.
I apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings or which made you
remember things you'd rather not remember or which made you feel
that you may have said something you need to second guess or shouldn't have said.

But yes, I do think this is the thread to which I was referring,
if not the specific post. And I'm not going into why it bothered me-
in terms of what you said to Endy. Again, I am sincere when I say I
believe I should have minded my own business - and I will do that now.

But if you're asking me what I think about the Death Wish movies,
I'll tell you that I don't agree with or enjoy watching anyone who
relishes inflicting grievous or bodily harm on
anyone David, for whatever reason.

And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

And we are. These problems stem from all of the **** we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

And we allow this damage to fester

and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

and then when we get sick of the results as they are acted out in our society-
we say, "Put them to death"

I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

What do you think about our naughty governor?

Is it his money or someone elses he's spent on this?

And if you can spell "See" "C"- I can forget to capitalize Christmas.
Give me a break David - this is my time AWAY from school.

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I think I should have minded my own business.
Seriously. And as soon as I brought up any of that old unpleasantness,
which I did in my post to you, I regretted it.
I apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings or which made you
remember things you'd rather not remember or which made you feel
that you may have said something you need to second guess or shouldn't have said.

That did not happen.

Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

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And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

So far as I am aware,
this fiction ( which was a lot of fun ) -- maybe cathartic --
has never been manifested in real life.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

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I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Well, ( I won 't bring up Tim McVeigh or Saddam )
I guess that depends on how u define the offense.
If 2 children opt to play " doctor " I doubt that this penalty shud be executed upon them.

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Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

Thaat sounds interesting.
What did u find ?
Can u elaborate at greater length ?

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But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

Let us not lose sight of the fact that historically,
the main reason for the creation of government is to facilitate vengeance.
The social contract is, in essence:
" do not avenge yourselves.
Government will do it for u, after a fair trial to discriminate between
the guilty and the innocent. "
If government defaults in its duty,
then the right to get even reverts to the aggrieved party.
( See the Declaration of Independence ).

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And we are. These problems stem from all of the **** we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

WhatayaMEAN " allow " ???
With freedom of speech and freedom of the press being what it is,
who has jd to interfere with it ?????????

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And we allow this damage to fester

As distinct from WHAT ??
( i.e., what SHUD we do ?? )

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and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

WHO is doing the pouring ??

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I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

Is it better if the same content is expressed thru books,
or personal correspondence, or on the radio, or the movies ?
I 'd not be in a hurry to judge that the medium is more important
than the message.
Did u grow up with TV in your home ?

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In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

I venture to suspect that if u had a TV
u might well find some blissful moments on it.
U can compare it to going out with friends:
sometimes it will be good,
and other times disagreeable.

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What do you think about our naughty governor?

I always thought there was something twisted about him.
I was not even in high school b4 I knew about the Mann Act.
He did not have to violate that federal law to satisfy his lust.
He cud have met her in NY.
Maybe thay fortgot to teach him that in Harvard Law School,
and maybe he was not paying attention when he was busting
prostitution rings during his 8 years as NY Attorney General.
Good for a chuckle.

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Is it his money or someone elses he's spent on this?

HIs.

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And if you can spell "See" "C"- I can forget to capitalize Christmas.
Give me a break David - this is my time AWAY from school.

I c your point.

Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

Ha-ha...What about if what you're enjoying doing is wrong to do...
isn't that how we define sociopathic behavior?

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And I do think that Endy's right in his feelings that people who are in any
way prone to such behavior or still developing in terms of their values
(such as children) should not watch such stuff.

So far as I am aware,
this fiction ( which was a lot of fun ) -- maybe cathartic --
has never been manifested in real life.

Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

Did you see the Jody Foster movie that ran along the same lines?
I think it was called, "The Brave One".

One of the major reasons I don't enjoy these movies is their contrived plot.
As you said earlier in this thread - the chances are very minute that
someone will have violence visited upon them even once in a lifetime.

So how do people like Charles Bronson and Jody Foster
just keep running into these situations -
sometimes even more than one in a single DAY!

Come on...

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I was in a restaurant with a tv playing the news last night
and I saw the question scroll across the screen,
"Death for child sex offenders?"
My first thought was, "Well, if not for them- who for?"

Well, ( I won 't bring up Tim McVeigh or Saddam )
I guess that depends on how u define the offense.
If 2 children opt to play " doctor " I doubt that this penalty shud be executed upon them.

Yeah, child sex offenders David - not childhood sex offenders. I saw your new thread.
I wouldn't call for their execution - but I'd keep a close eye on a child
who seemed to like to experiment moreso than other children his or her age.

That's often an indication that they've had more experience forced upon them
than they were ready for or are able to process appropriately- by someone in their lives.

Children can be manipulative too, you know.

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Seriously- I see the results of the damage they inflict in the people
I work with every day.

Thaat sounds interesting.
What did u find ?
Can u elaborate at greater length ?

Well, this girl in the news with Spitzer is a perfect example.
Apparently she was sexually abused as a child.
In general, victims of childhood sexual abuse struggle with feelings of worthlessness,
helplessness, and lack of control over their own lives and bodies.

They are more likely to have issues with learning and behavior problems in school,
and later, issues with addiction.

more likely to experience depression, homelessness, and maybe even incarceration,
and they are more likely to try to commit suicide at some point in their lives.

They are more likely to exhibit signs of sexual disfunction -
either in that they're inappropriately promiscuous or have no desire for or interest in sex at all.

They can show signs of either being inappropriately open and too willing to trust -
or of having issues with being able to trust anyone at all.

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But my next thought was, "We are so barbaric in this country"

Let us not lose sight of the fact that historically,
the main reason for the creation of government is to facilitate vengeance.
The social contract is, in essence:
" do not avenge yourselves.
Government will do it for u, after a fair trial to discriminate between
the guilty and the innocent. "
If government defaults in its duty,
then the right to get even reverts to the aggrieved party.
( See the Declaration of Independence ).

David, knowing what you have spent your whole life doing for a living -
it's hard for me to believe that you believe LOGICALLY in vigilante justice.

I can certainly understand the visceral, emotional acceptance of such
in situations where it just is unbearable to think that a person
will get away with murder of your loved one, say.

But as someone who has worked in the legal system his whole life -
how do you see it working in the cold, hard, light of day to day society?

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And we are. These problems stem from all of the **** we allow
to go on in our media and in childrens' homes and lives that we've chosen
to turn a blind eye to.

WhatayaMEAN " allow " ???
With freedom of speech and freedom of the press being what it is,
who has jd to interfere with it ?????????

I don't think adults do a very good job
of making this world an eddifying place
in which children can grow up safely
and without having their very impressionable brains
and emotions somewhat twisted.

Why are we so interested in what's so negative and detrimental
to ourselves and our developing children? What does that say about us?

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And we allow this damage to fester

As distinct from WHAT ??
( i.e., what SHUD we do ?? )

We should be better people.

We should take greater care with and of our children.

And not just our own children.
I think every adult should look at every child
with a sense of some responsibility.

Because we will all be affected by that childs' problems
or sickness or behavior if we don't.

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and we continue to pour this crap into the heads of children and
vulnerable adults and everyone else within the viewing public -

WHO is doing the pouring ??

The adults who have allowed our culture to become
a cesspool of violence and horror and deviance
(I am NOT talking about homosexuality here).

We just make everything too easy and available

and it has cheapened EVERYTHING for these kids.

I don't know if you every talk to any of these young people -

but I do EVERY DAY!
We just had a discussion the other day in which this young man said,
"I don't like my generation. It's hard and sick and twisted.
I wish I had been part of your generation," he said to me.
And this is a young (19 year old) black man from the Bronx- who had a
brush with the law - was in jail for three months- and can hang with the best of them.
These people aren't all out wilding in the streets reveling in the depravity they've been handed.

They do wish their world had been different.

And you might answer,
"Well, then they should make it different."

And I would answer back by asking,
"What tools have we given them with which to do this?"
Because as adults - I think that's our responsibility to them.

And I don't think we've done a good job of giving them the necessary tools.

Everything we show them in the wider culture as depicted by our media -
leads them in a negative direction instead of a positive one.

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I watched tv for one hour last night and I thought to myself -
thank god I don't have a tv. I think that's the best parenting decision
I've ever made. Thank GOD my kids aren't having their heads filled with this crap.

Is it better if the same content is expressed thru books,
or personal correspondence, or on the radio, or the movies ?
I 'd not be in a hurry to judge that the medium is more important
than the message.
Did u grow up with TV in your home ?

Yes, but I was never sat in front of it and given free reign.
I played outside moreso than inside - always-
I probably watched tv for one hour a night right before I was sent to bed at 9:00.

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In this case - ignorance is bliss for me.

I venture to suspect that if u had a TV
u might well find some blissful moments on it.
U can compare it to going out with friends:
sometimes it will be good,
and other times disagreeable.

I'd rather read.
Even when I go to a hotel and I have a tv -
I can't stand the constant noise coming out of it.

And this (relatively) new phenomenon of 24 hour news with commentator
after commentator telling us all what we should think about stuff -
all that does is reinforce the sense these kids have that they
have to have their thoughts handed or fed to them.

Read the paper and make up your own mind.

Or if you need guidance, read an editorial.

How can people listen to these people say the same things
over and over and over again?
And WHY should they?

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What do you think about our naughty governor?

I always thought there was something twisted about him.
I was not even in high school b4 I knew about the Mann Act.
He did not have to violate that federal law to satisfy his lust.
He cud have met her in NY.
Maybe thay fortgot to teach him that in Harvard Law School,
and maybe he was not paying attention when he was busting
prostitution rings during his 8 years as NY Attorney General.
Good for a chuckle.

Yeah, he's a strange fellow isn't he?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

I apologize for taking this long to answer.

To who me? No need David.

aidan wrote:

Quote:

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Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

Quote:

Ha-ha...What about if what you're enjoying doing is wrong to do...
isn't that how we define sociopathic behavior?

Well, regardless of how we define it,
if the perpetrator is going to DO it,
he may as well enjoy it,
inasmuch as the victim probably will not,
and then NO ONE will like it: so that the enterprise is in vain.

Very coldhearted David...would that be your feeling if the sociopathic perpetrator visited his or her sickness upon your own loved one- that you hoped s/he'd enjoyed it so that you'd be assured that the 'enterprise' would not have been in vain?
I'm sincerely interested...do you regret that statement (or attempt at a joke if that's what it was)?

Because I can't see you having done your job so well for so many years if this were your attitude.

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Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

WHAT do u have in mind,
when u say "people like the Weavers " ?

Zealots to their cause, who may have caused the ATF agents (whose cause was opposed to the Weavers) concern and grief.

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And if I were Charles Bronson - I'd be least proud of this work.

From that point of vu, I dissent.
I 'd love to c many variations on the theme.

So stipulated.

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Did you see the Jody Foster movie that ran along the same lines?
I think it was called, "The Brave One".

No, but thanx for bring this to my attention.
I LOVE Jodie Foster. (I think everyone shud)
I saw her on TV a few weeks ago; a talk show, maybe Leno.
She looked FANTASTIC; strikingly beautiful.
She has never been pudgy, but she lost some weight
and is now electrifyingly beautiful.

I always liked her.

I like her too - very intelligent and it comes across in her work. There's also a quiet peace about her- usually- although she also does play these tightly wound extremely tense characters very well too. The thing I like about her face is that it's animated. I think she's more attractive in movies than in stills- because then one can see the movement of expression and thought across her face- which is what I find most 'beautiful' about her. I don't think she's typically beautiful - but actually more interesting than that (to me).

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( I 've already heard the rumors of lesbianism: that 's fine with me. )

I'm sure she appreciates your willingness to be openminded about it David.

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One of the major reasons I don't enjoy these movies is their contrived plot.
As you said earlier in this thread - the chances are very minute that
someone will have violence visited upon them even once in a lifetime.

It did not seem far-fetched during the movie.
It did not seem improbable.

I was talking about the Brave One. I haven't watched anything other than trailers for Death Wish...not my cup of tea. I may have only glanced at the cover...but I know I'd never watch the movie. Charles Bronson never appealed to me as an actor.

I wouldn't call for their execution - but I'd keep a close eye on a child
who seemed to like to experiment moreso than other children his or her age.

He might resent the espionage intruding upon his libidinous adventures.
That happened to my cousin, Tommy, when he was about maybe 15
give or take a year or so. He 's in his 40s now.
His girlfriend was in bed with him and his mother got very upset
and caused some trouble; maybe threw out the girl; so long ago.

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That's often an indication that they've had more experience forced upon them
than they were ready for or are able to process appropriately- by someone in their lives.

1 ) What is the source of your information on this point ?
about the force ?

What criteria is it judged ( and who judges ) when the child
is " ready " for it ?
In my own experience,
I was the final, only and autonomous judge qua my own sexuality.

I never considered discussing this with any member of my family.
The closest I came to any discussion of this was when friends -- kids my age--
discussed THEIR sexual feelings with me.

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Children can be manipulative too, you know.

That is probably their most effective tool

1 ) HOW r we defining "sexually abused"? brutal rape ?
I ask because I remember having sexual relations with 2 chics
( at different times n places, not together ) when I was 11;
the first girl was 17 and the other was 23.
I am very glad to have had these experiences in my life.
I certainly felt that way then and feel that way now.

3 ) Qua the issue of "worthlessness":
I always (implicitly) defined worth as the quality of being able to
elevate my happiness n contentment;
for instance, more cash or more ammunition cud make me happier,
so cash n ammo are WORTH something.
Accordingly, it 'd be impossible for me to feel "worthless"
no matter how much sex I had or did not have.
My own contentment was the standard by which I judged value.

4 ) How does free volition of the child fit into what u r describing ?

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They are more likely to have issues with learning and behavior problems in school,
and later, issues with addiction.

If u r comparing n contrasting proportional successes n failures
among people who had sexual experiences during youth
( I am not sure whether u mean volitional or extorted )
then how have u ascertained the degree of sexual experience
of successful young scholars ?

I think boys r much more likely to say: "do that to me one more time !"

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more likely to experience depression, homelessness, and maybe even incarceration,
and they are more likely to try to commit suicide at some point in their lives.

I re-iterate my question:
have u ( or anyone ) compared n contrasted them
with successful young people who 've had sexual pleasure during youth ?
Is it possible that the depression, homelessness etc. can occur in virgins ?
Were thay depressed because thay did not get enuf sex ?
Admittedly, some people, AT ALL AGES, are anti-sexual from cradle to grave,
whereas their neighbors may enjoy what thay detest.

Has there been any study comparing suicide rates
between people who were fully virginal thru out their youths
and those who were "sexually abused" however u r defining that ?

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They are more likely to exhibit signs of sexual disfunction -
either in that they're inappropriately promiscuous or have no desire for or interest in sex at all.

Has this been contrasted with people who were 100% untouched by
any sexual experience thru out youth ?
Who never " played doctor " with other children ? or however u r define "sexual abuse" ?

I can certainly understand a woman hating sex
after an ugly n brutal rape; is that what u have in mind ?

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Well, if u r going to do something,
I guess u might as well enjoy it.
As someone once said: " if it ain 't fun, u r doing it rong. "

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Ha-ha...What about if what you're enjoying doing is wrong to do...
isn't that how we define sociopathic behavior?

Well, regardless of how we define it,
if the perpetrator is going to DO it,
he may as well enjoy it,
inasmuch as the victim probably will not,
and then NO ONE will like it: so that the enterprise is in vain.

Very coldhearted David...
would that be your feeling if the sociopathic perpetrator visited
his or her sickness upon your own loved one-
that you hoped s/he'd enjoyed it so that you'd be assured
that the 'enterprise' would not have been in vain?
I'm sincerely interested...do you regret that statement
(or attempt at a joke if that's what it was)?

Because I can't see you having done your job so well
for so many years if this were your attitude.

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Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

WHAT do u have in mind,
when u say "people like the Weavers " ?

Zealots to their cause,
who may have caused the ATF agents
(whose cause was opposed to the Weavers) concern and grief.

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Did you see the Jody Foster movie that ran along the same lines?
I think it was called, "The Brave One".

I have not seen that yet; tho I LOVE to look at Jodie Forster.




No, but thanx for bring this to my attention.
I LOVE Jodie Foster. (I think everyone shud)
I saw her on TV a few weeks ago; a talk show, maybe Leno.
She looked FANTASTIC; strikingly beautiful.
She has never been pudgy, but she lost some weight
and is now electrifyingly beautiful.

I always liked her.

I like her too - very intelligent and it comes across in her work. There's also a quiet peace about her- usually- although she also does play these tightly wound extremely tense characters very well too. The thing I like about her face is that it's animated. I think she's more attractive in movies than in stills- because then one can see the movement of expression and thought across her face- which is what I find most 'beautiful' about her. I don't think she's typically beautiful - but actually more interesting than that (to me).

( I 've already heard the rumors of lesbianism: that 's fine with me. )

I wouldn't call for their execution - but I'd keep a close eye on a child
who seemed to like to experiment moreso than other children his or her age.

He might resent the espionage intruding upon his libidinous adventures.
That happened to my cousin, Tommy, when he was about maybe 15
give or take a year or so. He 's in his 40s now.
His girlfriend was in bed with him and his mother got very upset
and caused some trouble; maybe threw out the girl; so long ago.

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That's often an indication that they've had more experience forced upon them
than they were ready for or are able to process appropriately- by someone in their lives.

1 ) What is the source of your information on this point ?
about the force ?

You know I hate to google, David....um anectdotal evidence...okay?

Reading I've done, yes, but also, I was the resident director
at a homeless shelter for homeless pregnant women and their children.
Around eighty percent of these young women who found themselves in
this fix reported childhood sexual abuse.

What criteria is it judged ( and who judges ) when the child
is " ready " for it ?
In my own experience,
I was the final, only and autonomous judge qua my own sexuality.

Yes, and luckily for you, you were allowed
to be that (your own judge for when you were ready).

Luckily for me, I was too...I was never raped or molested,
but for a lot of people, someone else makes that judgment.

1 ) HOW r we defining "sexually abused"? brutal rape ?
I ask because I remember having sexual relations with 2 chics
( at different times n places, not together ) when I was 11;
the first girl was 17 and the other was 23.
I am very glad to have had these experiences in my life.
I certainly felt that way then and feel that way now.

Then I would not consider you to have been abuse.

3 ) Qua the issue of "worthlessness":
I always (implicitly) defined worth as the quality of being able to
elevate my happiness n contentment;
for instance, more cash or more ammunition cud make me happier,
so cash n ammo are WORTH something.
Accordingly, it 'd be impossible for me to feel "worthless"
no matter how much sex I had or did not have.
My own contentment was the standard by which I judged value.

You have a healthy ego David.

4 ) How does free volition of the child fit into what u r describing ?

Well, the word 'child' is the qualifier David.
You were eleven when you interated with those two young women.
You were pubescent...you were experiencing desires and stirrings
and no one had to force or coerce you to do what you did.

I'm not saying I approve of what the seventeen
and twenty-three year old involved themselves in

- pretty damn weird...I can't imagine a 23 year old woman
desperate enough to initiate an 11 year old boy-

but hey...there are lots of things I'd never imagine.

But do I think you did anything 'wrong' as the curious 11 year old pubescent male - No.

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They are more likely to have issues with learning and behavior problems in school,
and later, issues with addiction.

If u r comparing n contrasting proportional successes n failures
among people who had sexual experiences during youth
( I am not sure whether u mean volitional or extorted )
then how have u ascertained the degree of sexual experience
of successful young scholars ?

I'm talking about people who have been raped (abused) as children.

I think boys r much more likely to say: "do that to me one more time !"

Really?! Not my impression at all -
but then I'm not a male and I've never been raped-
so you may know moreso than I.

more likely to experience depression, homelessness, and maybe even incarceration,
and they are more likely to try to commit suicide at some point in their lives.

Has there been any study comparing suicide rates
between people who were fully virginal thru out their youths
and those who were "sexually abused" however u r defining that ?

Now that's something I'd be interested enough in to google. Maybe I will.

Quote:

They are more likely to exhibit signs of sexual disfunction -
either in that they're inappropriately promiscuous or have no desire for or interest in sex at all.

Has this been contrasted with people who were 100% untouched by
any sexual experience thru out youth ?
Who never " played doctor " with other children ? or however u r define "sexual abuse" ?

I don't define playing doctor - child to child- as sexual abuse David.
As I said, I do think it'd be interesting to learn more about this.

I think the lack of sexual stimulation
(at whatever is the 'normal' set point for that specific person) at any age,
can be detrimental to ones emotional and physical health and psyche.

I can certainly understand a woman hating sex
after an ugly n brutal rape; is that what u have in mind ?

Somewhat - but it doesn't have to be as dramatic as a brutal rape-
it could be manipulation and the feeling of having been used...
it can take many forms.

aidan wrote:

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Very coldhearted David...
would that be your feeling if the sociopathic perpetrator visited
his or her sickness upon your own loved one-
that you hoped s/he'd enjoyed it so that you'd be assured
that the 'enterprise' would not have been in vain?
I'm sincerely interested...do you regret that statement
(or attempt at a joke if that's what it was)?

I do not regret it.
Logic requires it.
If the perp himself does not like it then no contentment
at all comes of it and it is futile.

But something inevitably DOES come of it (if not contentment for the perpetrator). Pain for the victim and his or her family. So it's either less or more than futile in any case, depending on how you choose to look at it. Why would you wish the perpetrator contentment as a default David? Wouldn't that seem to inescapably lead us into the very morass that you in your job were trying to help alleviate in our society? And by that I mean, if perpetrators were wished and hoped by law abiding people to achieve contentment through their crimes, wouldn't that mean we (the law abiders) were encouraging their endeavors- if only in our thoughts.

Nope - I can't agree with that attitude.
And I don't really believe that you'd like to think of your loved one being hurt and on top of that being happy that the perpetrator obtained some kind of sick contentment as s/he accomplished that.

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Because I can't see you having done your job so well
for so many years if this were your attitude.

I did my job.
My attitude had nothing to do with it
Just applying the law to the facts.

Yes, I can see how that's true. That's why I could never do your job - my tendancy toward empathy and raw emotion would get in the way of my job performance.

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Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

WHAT do u have in mind,
when u say "people like the Weavers " ?

Quote:

Zealots to their cause,
who may have caused the ATF agents
(whose cause was opposed to the Weavers) concern and grief.

To WHAT cause were thay zealots ??????
Randy Weaver simply allowed an agent of the ATF
to seduce him into cutting his shotgun a quarter inch below the statutory minimum.
THEN thay attacked to enforce the National Firearms Act of 1934
and federally murdered his wife and child.

WHAT cause is THAT ???

That's exactly the point I made. The whole thing seemed to me to be overkill and some kind of payback. I was stating that maybe the experiences these ATF agents had with people similar to the Weaver's influenced them in their attitudes toward the Weaver's -who were entirely different people in different circumstances. And maybe movies they watched about people they felt were similar to the Weaver's played a role in that. Maybe books they read did.
That's my point - people take input from sources and apply it to real life situations. That can result in harm to innocent people- or excessive force as was the case here.
Or maybe those particular ATF agents were sick f***s who just liked shooting guns and wielding force and decided they had the go-ahead to shoot a boy in the back and a woman holding a baby. Who knows - but it all added up to violence that didn't need to happen.

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( I 've already heard the rumors of lesbianism: that 's fine with me. )

I'm sure she appreciates your willingness to be openminded about it David.
IF I WERE A CHIC, I CUD NOT RESIST HER, EITHER !!!
NO ONE CUD !!!
THAT 'd BE UNNATURAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could resist her David - and I'm not unnatural. That reminds me of a conversation I had with my roommate my senior year in college. She'd decided she was a lesbian and had a girlfriend who used to come over to our room to 'visit' . Well C. (my roommate) and I had been friends for the three previous years, during which she'd had a boyfriend. Her boyfriend was friends with my boyfriend. Then C started seeing Christine - but her boyfriend would still come over with my boyfriend sometimes. C. said to me, 'I don't want them coming over here anymore. I don't like that negative male energy they bring into our space.'
I said, 'That is SO ridiculous. Why can you have your love interest in our room, but I can't have mine- just because it's not a girl?'
She said, 'I can't stand to watch you waste yourself on a man. You'd be so much better off with a woman.'
I told her it would't work for me - but I think she thought because she could switch back and forth that I could too- so she kept bugging me about it - not with her - but to find someone else to at least 'try' it with.

Finally I just said, 'NO - I CANT- I have absolutely no desire to do that.'
She said, 'Don't you think women are beautiful?'
I said, 'Sure - but I have never, ever felt the need to touch one.'

She thought that was funny and then she left me alone about it.

So although I think Jodi is talented, smart and pretty in her own way - I can resist her David.

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Reading I've done, yes, but also, I was the resident director
at a homeless shelter for homeless pregnant women and their children.
Around eighty percent of these young women who found themselves in
this fix reported childhood sexual abuse.

FORCED upon them,
or upon their own free initiative, as I did ???

Forced. They spoke about their perpetrators with utter disgust!

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What criteria is it judged ( and who judges ) when the child
is " ready " for it ?
In my own experience,
I was the final, only and autonomous judge qua my own sexuality.

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Yes, and luckily for you, you were allowed
to be that (your own judge for when you were ready).

I did what I dam well pleased; it was NEVER a question
of what I was "ALLOWED" as u put it.
I will add that in matters that were NOT
related to sex, I consulted my mother 's opinion,
in that she had EARNED my respect and confidence in the strength
of her powers of reason.

David - when you're a child- if there are certain types of people in your life or environment - you're lucky if you're allowed to remain LIVING- much less sexually intact. You were just lucky you didn't have those types of people around you.

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1 ) HOW r we defining "sexually abused"? brutal rape ?
I ask because I remember having sexual relations with 2 chics
( at different times n places, not together ) when I was 11;
the first girl was 17 and the other was 23.
I am very glad to have had these experiences in my life.
I certainly felt that way then and feel that way now.

Quote:

Then I would not consider you to have been abuse.

If I met them now,
I 'd hug n kiss them (tho I might be too old for them now).

Probably....

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- pretty damn weird...I can't imagine a 23 year old woman
desperate enough to initiate an 11 year old boy-

She was not desperate ( & she was too late to "INTITIATE" me )
She had a boyfriend, older than she was, with whom I was friendly.
Thay invited me to sleep over.
It was a very welcome invitation.

Okay - now it gets weirder and weirder. Did the boyfriend WATCH as you guys did your thing? What, was he unable to meet her needs and encouraged her to find satisfaction elsewhere with little boys? Not to take anything away from you David - but my GOD! An eleven year old boy? Those two should have been arrested.
Did your mom and dad know anything about this?

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but hey...there are lots of things I'd never imagine.

There r more things in Heaven & Earth, Horatio .......

Oh hell yeah....like twenty-three year old girls and their boyfriends doing the Michael Jackson thing before he was even doing it....
But you know what - it's getting harder and harder to find myself shocked these days.

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But do I think you did anything 'wrong' as the curious 11 year old pubescent male - No.

I will admit
of how curiousity
is a very significant part of being HORNY.

Why have you started using this juvenile language? I think you need to keep writing those scholarly articles. Your vernacular is starting to slip.
(Sorry to bug you about it - but I listen to it ALL DAY EVERY DAY from postpubescent young men. I expect more from a man of retirement age of your breeding and professional experience).

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It is an error
to think of children ( as I was ), as being strange, weird alien creatures
who do not share ordinary adult human libido.

It is an error to think of anyone sharing what you believe to be an ordinary libido. Each person has his or her own, no matter what their age. Each person should be allowed to have his or her own no matter what their age or someone elses expectations about it might be.

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I think boys r much more likely to say: "do that to me one more time !"

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Really?! Not my impression at all -
but then I'm not a male and I've never been raped-
so you may know moreso than I.

I never got raped, Rebecca. (That had something to do with the reason for the .38)

I knew there was a reason you felt the need to be protected moreso than others. Not that you'd been raped - as you said you hadn't - but maybe you'd felt threatened at one time or another as a child.

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I think the lack of sexual stimulation
(at whatever is the 'normal' set point for that specific person) at any age,
can be detrimental to ones emotional and physical health and psyche.

Will u offer an opinion
as to the best and correct
sexual stimulation that shud be rendered in the circumstances ?

No, I can only tell you what works for me. And as I'm not having sex with you or anyone else on this forum - that's a nonissue here.

I'm of the opinion that a person's sexual experiences retain more value if they're only shared with whoever's special enough for them to choose to enter into that sort of relationship with. I think taking it outside of that relationship cheapens it. And it's something I wouldn't devalue or cheapen in that way.
I'm trying to relay that attitude to my students. We have to talk about healthy attitudes and life styles and all sorts of things. You'd be surprised how receptive to it they are. They seem to get it - much moreso than some of the seasoned adults on this forum.

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Hold ON.
Does that mean that if his OTHER girlfriend calls the next morning,
then she shud call 911 n complain of RAPE ?

How idiotic?! That's exactly why people should be careful who they engage sexually with.
You may end up with a real headcase- when all you wanted was to get 'your jollies'.

I know you said you don't drink David - but I was thinking maybe you'd been drinking when you wrote this.

Always trying to give you the benefit of the doubt- I am.
But I did find it interesting - so thanks.

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Very coldhearted David...
would that be your feeling if the sociopathic perpetrator visited
his or her sickness upon your own loved one-
that you hoped s/he'd enjoyed it so that you'd be assured
that the 'enterprise' would not have been in vain?
I'm sincerely interested...do you regret that statement
(or attempt at a joke if that's what it was)?

I do not regret it.
Logic requires it.
If the perp himself does not like it then no contentment
at all comes of it and it is futile.

But something inevitably DOES come of it (if not contentment for the perpetrator).
Pain for the victim and his or her family. So it's either less or more than
futile in any case, depending on how you choose to look at it.

Why would you wish the perpetrator contentment as a default David?

Wouldn't that seem to inescapably lead us into the very morass that
you in your job were trying to help alleviate in our society? And by that
I mean, if perpetrators were wished and hoped by law abiding people
to achieve contentment through their crimes, wouldn't that mean we
(the law abiders) were encouraging their endeavors- if only in our thoughts.

Nope - I can't agree with that attitude.
And I don't really believe that you'd like to think of your loved one being
hurt and on top of that being happy that the perpetrator obtained some
kind of sick contentment as s/he accomplished that.

Quote:

Because I can't see you having done your job so well
for so many years if this were your attitude.

I did my job.
My attitude had nothing to do with it
Just applying the law to the facts.

Yes, I can see how that's true.
That's why I could never do your job -
my tendancy toward empathy and raw emotion
would get in the way of my job performance.

Quote:

Quote:

Ah, but you don't know that.
How do you know that the Weaver woman and her fourteen year old son weren't killed by ATF agents (or whatever arm of government law enforcement they were from) who had had prior personal experiences with people like the Weavers, and so when they finally had them in their sights, they went overboard and decided to make the whole family pay. Why else would a sniper shoot a woman holding a baby and a fourteen year old boy in the back?
Sounds like some kind of payback to me....definitely.

WHAT do u have in mind,
when u say "people like the Weavers " ?

Quote:

Zealots to their cause,
who may have caused the ATF agents
(whose cause was opposed to the Weavers) concern and grief.

To WHAT cause were thay zealots ??????
Randy Weaver simply allowed an agent of the ATF
to seduce him into cutting his shotgun a quarter inch below the statutory minimum.
THEN thay attacked to enforce the National Firearms Act of 1934
and federally murdered his wife and child.

WHAT cause is THAT ???

That's exactly the point I made.
The whole thing seemed to me to be overkill and some kind of payback.

I was stating that maybe the experiences these ATF agents had with people similar
to the Weaver's influenced them in their attitudes toward the Weaver's -
who were entirely different people in different circumstances.

And maybe movies they watched about people they felt were similar to the Weaver's played a role in that. Maybe books they read did.
That's my point - people take input from sources and apply it to real life situations. That can result in harm to innocent people- or excessive force as was the case here.

Or maybe those particular ATF agents were sick f***s who just liked shooting guns and wielding force and decided they had the go-ahead to shoot a boy in the back and a woman holding a baby. Who knows - but it all added up to violence that didn't need to happen.

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( I 've already heard the rumors of lesbianism: that 's fine with me. )

I'm sure she appreciates your willingness to be openminded about it David.
IF I WERE A CHIC, I CUD NOT RESIST HER, EITHER !!!
NO ONE CUD !!!
THAT 'd BE UNNATURAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could resist her David - and I'm not unnatural.

That reminds me of a conversation I had with my roommate my senior year in college.
She'd decided she was a lesbian and had a girlfriend who used to come
over to our room to 'visit' . Well C. (my roommate) and I had been
friends for the three previous years, during which she'd had a boyfriend.
Her boyfriend was friends with my boyfriend. Then C started seeing
Christine - but her boyfriend would still come over with my boyfriend sometimes.
C. said to me, 'I don't want them coming over here anymore.
I don't like that negative male energy they bring into our space.'
I said, 'That is SO ridiculous. Why can you have your love interest in our room,
but I can't have mine- just because it's not a girl?'
She said, 'I can't stand to watch you waste yourself on a man.
You'd be so much better off with a woman.'
I told her it would't work for me - but I think she thought because she
could switch back and forth that I could too- so she kept bugging me
about it - not with her - but to find someone else to at least 'try' it with.

Finally I just said, 'NO - I CANT- I have absolutely no desire to do that.'
She said, 'Don't you think women are beautiful?'
I said, 'Sure - but I have never, ever felt the need to touch one.'

She thought that was funny and then she left me alone about it.

So although I think Jodi is talented, smart and pretty in her own way -
I can resist her David.

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Reading I've done, yes, but also, I was the resident director
at a homeless shelter for homeless pregnant women and their children.
Around eighty percent of these young women who found themselves in
this fix reported childhood sexual abuse.

FORCED upon them,
or upon their own free initiative, as I did ???

Forced. They spoke about their perpetrators with utter disgust!

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What criteria is it judged ( and who judges ) when the child
is " ready " for it ?
In my own experience,
I was the final, only and autonomous judge qua my own sexuality.

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Yes, and luckily for you, you were allowed
to be that (your own judge for when you were ready).

I did what I dam well pleased; it was NEVER a question
of what I was "ALLOWED" as u put it.
I will add that in matters that were NOT
related to sex, I consulted my mother 's opinion,
in that she had EARNED my respect and confidence in the strength
of her powers of reason.

David - when you're a child-
if there are certain types of people in your life or environment -
you're lucky if you're allowed to remain LIVING- much less sexually intact.
You were just lucky you didn't have those types of people around you.

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1 ) HOW r we defining "sexually abused"? brutal rape ?
I ask because I remember having sexual relations with 2 chics
( at different times n places, not together ) when I was 11;
the first girl was 17 and the other was 23.
I am very glad to have had these experiences in my life.
I certainly felt that way then and feel that way now.

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Then I would not consider you to have been abuse.

If I met them now,
I 'd hug n kiss them (tho I might be too old for them now).

Probably....

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- pretty damn weird...I can't imagine a 23 year old woman
desperate enough to initiate an 11 year old boy-

She was not desperate ( & she was too late to "INTITIATE" me )
She had a boyfriend, older than she was, with whom I was friendly.
Thay invited me to sleep over.
It was a very welcome invitation.

Okay - now it gets weirder and weirder.
Did the boyfriend WATCH as you guys did your thing?

What, was he unable to meet her needs and encouraged her
to find satisfaction elsewhere with little boys? Not to take anything away
from you David - but my GOD! An eleven year old boy?
Those two should have been arrested.

Did your mom and dad know anything about this?

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but hey...there are lots of things I'd never imagine.

There r more things in Heaven & Earth, Horatio .......

Oh hell yeah....like twenty-three year old girls and their boyfriends
doing the Michael Jackson thing before he was even doing it....
But you know what - it's getting harder and harder to find myself shocked these days.

Quote:

But do I think you did anything 'wrong' as the curious 11 year old pubescent male - No.

I will admit
of how curiousity
is a very significant part of being HORNY.

Why have you started using this juvenile language?
I think you need to keep writing those scholarly articles.
Your vernacular is starting to slip.
(Sorry to bug you about it - but I listen to it ALL DAY EVERY DAY from
postpubescent young men. I expect more from a man of retirement age
of your breeding and professional experience).

It is an error
to think of children ( as I was ), as being strange, weird alien creatures
who do not share ordinary adult human libido.

It is an error to think of anyone sharing what you believe to be an ordinary libido.

Each person has his or her own, no matter what their age.
Each person should be allowed to have his or her own no matter what
their age or someone elses expectations about it might be.

Quote:

I think boys r much more likely to say: "do that to me one more time !"

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Really?! Not my impression at all -
but then I'm not a male and I've never been raped-
so you may know moreso than I.

I never got raped, Rebecca. (That had something to do with the reason for the .38)

I knew there was a reason you felt the need to be protected moreso than others.
Not that you'd been raped - as you said you hadn't - but maybe you'd felt threatened at one time or another as a child.

Hold ON.
Does that mean that if his OTHER girlfriend calls the next morning,
then she shud call 911 n complain of RAPE ?

I know you said you don't drink David -

but I was thinking maybe you'd been drinking when you wrote this.

Always trying to give you the benefit of the doubt- I am.

Hey David - I keep losing the post I try to send you to answer this.

As I just typed (but somehow lost AGAIN!!!)

I responded to this post early this morning and then went to submit
and poof - it disappeared and said I hadn't logged in. Well, of course I had -
you have to to post, right - but anyway...I can't do the whole quote thing again
and I think I remember the posts you made that I wanted to respond to -
so I'll write it like a letter, okay?

The reason I'm so fascinated with your job is that I, myself almost attended law school.
Did I ever tell you that?

I wanted to work in child advocacy.
So I volunteered for a while as a guardian ad litem.

The last case I was appointed to made me realize I didn't have the personality to do it.
There were these two little girls removed from their home because their father
had abused them. He'd locked the little brother out of the house and told him
not to come back in until he (the father) called him. Well the boy got hungry
and went to the neighbors house and asked for something to eat.
The neighbor asked why he couldn't go next door to his own house to eat
and the boy said, 'Dad told me to stay outside until he finished with the girls -
and then he'd call me.' The neighbors called the police and the case went to trial
to determine custody.
It was determined that the girls were to be sent back into the home and
reunification attempted. If I remember correctly, the little boy was
thought to be too young to testify to anything

and there wasn't overwhelming physical evidence.

Anyway - I was convinced- and it was impossible to imagine myself either
being the defense attorney who might have to pretend on occasion
that I believed in my client's innocence if I didn't -

or the prosecutor who would have to stomach losses such as this one.

Chacy - my roommate - became a highschool biology teacher.
And then she went on to become a therapist. She's very bright and sort
of crazy in a really fun way....when we graduated we took a camping trip
down the coast of NC, SC, Georgia, and into Florida (St. Augustine) with another friend.

One night we were camping on Cumberland Island - which at the time
was very undeveloped - wild horses and everything. We were sitting
down by the beach drinking beer and singing (she played the guitar) and
this very handsome guy came up. He sang and drank with us and we
started talking and asked him what he did. He said he dug graves.
Well, we just kind of looked at each other and raised our eyebrows and
he said, 'Seriously - I'm a grave digger'.

So we just went on singing, said goodnight and then went back to our tent.
Patty was out like a light in like two minutes. I was tossing and turning because
it was so crowded and frigging hot in the tent and Chacy was awake too -
she says, 'I can't sleep here. That guy knows where our tent is-
he could come back here and kill us - I think he's a serial killer -
that gravedigger comment was a warning.'

I said, 'Get out of here,' but then I started thinking about it and
getting nervous so we got up and walked about a mile down the beach
where we knew he wouldn't be able to find us.

We tried to get Patty to come with us but she just said,
'If I'm gonna die - I'm gonna die in this tent. I'm too tired to walk anywhere.'
She was always the sane and sensible one. Chacy and I were like Frik and Frak -
I was slightly more sensible than she was -
but she could always get me thinking and going...we had a lot of fun together.
I still have a picture of the three of us from that trip on my writing desk.
I'm looking at it right now.

Sorry about the censure on 'horny'.
I do just HATE that word....I don't know why...
it does sound so juvenile to me.

But okay - I'll think of it as energetic from now on.

I AM very perceptive David -

I KNEW there was something different about your affect
as you made that post. Vodka- huh?
Did you make screwdrivers?

That's a drink that sneaks up on me -
I like them so I drink more than I think I have and suddenly....woh!

My students (the adults of legal age) were talking about taking me out
to a club when I leave. I'd NEVER go to a club with them or get drunk in front
of them adults or not) - I said, 'Let's do a picnic...' but anyway - we started
talking about what different types of drunk/drinking people there were:
sad drinkers, angry drinkers, happy drinkers...
I'm a happy drinker - although I rarely get drunk-just a little buzzed
on occasion - how about you? What kind of drinker are you?

I post in my buzzed state now and then - my Justin story especially.

And then I just sit - listening to music -
and type away smiling stupidly.

You have to give yourself these little gifts sometimes.

(PS - I did love that first restaurant...
did I tell you my dad used to go there when he worked in the city?

I hope to get down to the city at least one more time before we leave.)

Quote:

I wanted to work in child advocacy.
So I volunteered for a while as a guardian ad litem.

In which state ?

Quote:

The last case I was appointed to made me realize I didn't have the personality to do it.
There were these two little girls removed from their home because their father
had abused them. He'd locked the little brother out of the house and told him
not to come back in until he (the father) called him. Well the boy got hungry
and went to the neighbors house and asked for something to eat.
The neighbor asked why he couldn't go next door to his own house to eat
and the boy said, 'Dad told me to stay outside until he finished with the girls -
and then he'd call me.' The neighbors called the police and the case went to trial
to determine custody.
It was determined that the girls were to be sent back into the home and
reunification attempted. If I remember correctly, the little boy was
thought to be too young to testify to anything

How young ?

Quote:

and there wasn't overwhelming physical evidence.

I 'm pretty sure that the D.A. d be interested in having the girls
(what age ?) medically examined for virginity.
What did the putative victims have to say ?

Quote:

Anyway - I was convinced- and it was impossible to imagine myself either
being the defense attorney who might have to pretend on occasion
that I believed in my client's innocence if I didn't -

In NY, n probably other jurisdictions, it is against the law of evidence
for an attoney to engage his own veracity
(i.e., to tell the jury:" I believe him"), altho it does happen.
Adverse counsel is entitled to an order to disregard it.

I just took a delivery of a pizza, w/ 3 Italian meats & a lot of extra garlic butter.
Thay can be very tasty; I did not feel like going out today.
I can be lazy, if I practice enuf.

My former law partner and his girlfriend have sold their realty on L.I.
and decamped for North Carolina. He recently sent me a note by email
EXTOLLING the virtues of North Carolina; he said something about Mayberry.

Quote:

One night we were camping on Cumberland Island - which at the time
was very undeveloped - wild horses and everything. We were sitting
down by the beach drinking beer and singing (she played the guitar) and
this very handsome guy came up. He sang and drank with us and we
started talking and asked him what he did. He said he dug graves.
Well, we just kind of looked at each other and raised our eyebrows and
he said, 'Seriously - I'm a grave digger'.

So we just went on singing, said goodnight and then went back to our tent.
Patty was out like a light in like two minutes. I was tossing and turning because
it was so crowded and frigging hot in the tent and Chacy was awake too -
she says, 'I can't sleep here. That guy knows where our tent is-
he could come back here and kill us - I think he's a serial killer -
that gravedigger comment was a warning.'

Wud u have felt better
if each of u girls had provided herself with sufficient defensive firepower ???

Quote:

I post in my buzzed state now and then - my Justin story especially.

Which was the one about Justin ?

Quote:

And then I just sit - listening to music -
and type away smiling stupidly.

What kinda music ?

Quote:

You have to give yourself these little gifts sometimes.

U R aware that u r addressing a libertarian-individualist-HEDONIST, right ??

Quote:

I hope to get down to the city at least one more time before we leave.)

Gimme a ring (u still have my fone # ? ) or by email
and we 'll go back to One If By Land n Two If By Sea.
May I point out (with the fullness of respect) that last time,
u did not have its signature dish: BEEF WELLINGTON.
If the Englishmen found out about that, thay might not let u back in there.

I just took a delivery of a pizza, w/ 3 Italian meats & a lot of extra garlic butter.
Thay can be very tasty; I did not feel like going out today.
I can be lazy, if I practice enuf.

I didn't step outside the door yesterday - which is very weird for me - I always go outside at least once to take a walk, but I was so tired - I realized at the end of the day that I hadn't even walked out the door.

That pizza sounds a little overwhelming David (very meaty).
Do you remember if you enjoyed it or not?

My former law partner and his girlfriend have sold their realty on L.I.
and decamped for North Carolina. He recently sent me a note by email
EXTOLLING the virtues of North Carolina; he said something about Mayberry.

There are parts of North Carolina I love. I spent five of the happiest years of my life in and around Asheville. That's a beautiful spot - I'm going down there next week to visit. I lived in a house with seven other people on one of the main thoroughfares of the city and we didn't ever have to lock our house - in fact - our back door didn't have a lock, so we couldn't have even if we'd wanted to.

I used to like Chapel Hill - too built up and developed now. I feel like I'm in NJ when I'm there. I do still love the coastline - the outer banks, etc.
Where is your friend living?

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Where is your friend living?

I think he said Mayberry.

David