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Between a Rock and A Hard Place

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2008 07:41 pm
I don't hold the low opinion of him that you seem to, JTT. Nor do I agree (or completely disagree) with Blatham. Gotta go to choir practice but never fear.....or hope.....because I shall return.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2008 07:53 pm
I'm thinking McCain has handed the democrats the Whitehouse with his vote on waterboarding. Not waterboarding specifically but rather McCain's "integrity" via waterboarding. It was just last November when McCain said that waterboarding was illegal and not an option and now, with the nomination, locked he votes in favor of waterboarding.
McCain had "straight talk"? Again, I'm thinking has just handed Obama or Clinton the Whitehouse because he has lost the moderate republican, the moderate democrat and the possibility of a republican president in teh Whitehouse. Senator McCain has demonstrated that he is a pandering, no integrity, slime bucket.
He makes Reagan look good.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2008 07:53 pm
Re: Between a Rock and A Hard Place
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Well, here I go again. Hillary is much too left wing for me, Obama even more so. It really frightens me to think what would happen if either of them became commander in chief. With either of those two, I think that the economy, which is rather moribund, will really go into the crapper.

I think that McCain needs to start thinking about playing golf at this point in his life, rather than running the country. To his credit, I think that he understands how important it is that terrorism is contained, but when it comes to the economy, fuggedaboudit! The fact that he even has to consider pandering to the nutjob biblebangers is a travesty.

I could have lived with Rudy, but he screwed up his campaign, big time.

What to do, what to do???

There seem to be a lot of members who are committed to one candidate or another. Is anyone around like me, who (again) is attempting to figure out who is "least worst"?


Yes, their are other people like you. Just enough not to count.

"Parliamentarianism - or, in other words, public licence to choose between five or so political opinions - flatters and wins the favour of all those who would like to appear to be independent and individual, as if they fought for their opinions. in the end, however, it is a matter of indifference whether the herd is ordered to have one opinion or allowed to have five. Whoever deviates from the five licensed public opinions, and stands apart, will always have the entire herd against them."

- The Gay Science (Nietzsche)

(We are down to two choices each probably financed by the same side) Laughing
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:13 pm
amigo wrote:
(We are down to two choices each probably financed by the same side)
Most likely truer then most of us realize.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:29 pm
dyslexia wrote:
I'm thinking McCain has handed the democrats the Whitehouse with his vote on waterboarding. Not waterboarding specifically but rather McCain's "integrity" via waterboarding. It was just last November when McCain said that waterboarding was illegal and not an option and now, with the nomination, locked he votes in favor of waterboarding.
McCain had "straight talk"? Again, I'm thinking has just handed Obama or Clinton the Whitehouse because he has lost the moderate republican, the moderate democrat and the possibility of a republican president in teh Whitehouse. Senator McCain has demonstrated that he is a pandering, no integrity, slime bucket.
He makes Reagan look good.


Damned sad. It's difficult to imagine, assuming a loss in the general, how he might ever again be such an effective and honored independent voice.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Feb, 2008 07:42 am
blatham wrote:
foxfire wrote:
Quote:
As McCain has experienced real torture first hand, it was felt he of all people should know the difference; therefore he was seen as pandering to the Left for political advantage.

Now having to reinvent himself to be acceptable to a broad and widely diverse conservative electorate, he is in something of a quandary. He's damned by somebody no matter what he decides.


Pandering to the left for what political advantage? Who charged him with pandering to the left in that instance? Do you have some quotes from someone other than Rush or Coulter?

That's he's "damned by sombody no matter what he decides" is hardly unique to McCain. It is a consequence of opening one's mouth and talking.

This is a further pander to try and bridge over to the kook end of his party get their votes and support. For a man who runs on 'character', straight-talk and integrity, its just bloody saddening.


Blaming things on the "left" is a familiar talking point used by the WH and republicans and right wing supporters.



Poll results: Waterboarding is torture

Quote:
A majority of Americans consider waterboarding a form of torture, but some of those say it's OK for the U.S. government to use the technique, according to a poll released Tuesday.

Asked whether they think waterboarding is a form of torture, more than two-thirds of respondents, or 69 percent, said yes; 29 percent said no.

Asked whether they think the U.S. government should be allowed to use the procedure to try to get information from suspected terrorists, 58 percent said no; 40 percent said yes.


So most Americans know waterboarding is torture; should be a "no brainer" but only 58% said it is not OK to use it. Still I guess 58% is better than a lower number and justifies congress passing a bill to ban it regardless of McCain's no vote.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 07:30 am
Re: Between a Rock and A Hard Place
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Well, here I go again. Hillary is much too left wing for me, Obama even more so.


I giggle everytime I read that.

~~~

From politicalcompass.org

http://politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries_2008.png




Vote Kucinich. Vote often.

Cool


~~~
~~~

It's all about perception. Forget about the facts. They're just too confusing for folks.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 07:32 am
Re: Between a Rock and A Hard Place
Amigo wrote:
(We are down to two choices each probably financed by the same side) Laughing


not so much side, but industries. Obama and Clinton in particular drink at the same troughs.

<shudder>
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 11:37 am
It appears that they do, but we don't get much conservative from the GOP candidates either. Neither Barack nor Hillary belong in the 'rightwing' box and McCain only barely inches in there. The following from THE NATIONAL JOURNAL does not agree with Ebeth's chart, however:

http://nationaljournal.com/img/njgraphics/080131_voteratings.gif

Quote:
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., the other front-runner in the Democratic presidential race, also shifted to the left last year. She ranked as the 16th-most-liberal senator in the 2007 ratings, a computer-assisted analysis that used 99 key Senate votes, selected by NJ reporters and editors, to place every senator on a liberal-to-conservative scale in each of three issue categories. In 2006, Clinton was the 32nd-most-liberal senator.

In their yearlong race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Obama and Clinton have had strikingly similar voting records. Of the 267 measures on which both senators cast votes in 2007, the two differed on only 10. "The policy differences between Clinton and Obama are so slight they are almost nonexistent to the average voter," said Richard Lau, a Rutgers University political scientist. . . .

. . . .Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., the only other senator whose presidential candidacy survived the initial round of primaries and caucuses this year, did not vote frequently enough in 2007 to draw a composite score. He missed more than half of the votes in both the economic and foreign-policy categories. On social issues, which include immigration, McCain received a conservative score of 59. (McCain's composite scores from his prior years in the Senate, published in our March 2007 vote ratings issue, are available as a PDF.) http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, the lone House member still in the presidential race, had a composite conservative score of 60.2, making him the 178th-most-conservative lawmaker in that chamber in 2007. His libertarian views placed him close to the center of the House in both the social issues and foreign-policy categories. He registered more conservative on economic issues.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 11:42 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal


"most liberal" in the U.S. is still right-wing to quite a bit of the rest of the world
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 11:44 am
Well that's probably true too. I know other places often define the terms differently than we do.

The interesting thing is how much Hillary has swung left then right then left while McCain has swung more to the right. Barack has become increasingly liberal during his tenure as senator.

Which all still leaves us between a rock and a hard place as Phoenix put it. Do we want the most liberal senator in Congress for President? Or would that be better than two whose ideology appears to be swayed by political expediency?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:01 pm
The liberal

http://www.wisebread.com/files/fruganomics/wisebread_imce/its-a-wonderful-life-title.jpg

The conservative

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/Drama/Drama/WonderfulPotter4.jpg




The liberal

http://libsyn.com/podcasts/matineeplayhouse/images/Logo-RNN-Scrooge.jpg


The conservative

http://soundbiteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/scrooge.jpg
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:01 pm
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z69/BerniceL1/compass.png

eh Beth- I did not particularly like that test. Some of the questions were slanted or worded in a way that I found unacceptable. Anyhow, here is how I ended up.

It's all a matter of perspective!!!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:03 pm
try that again...

The liberal

http://www.wisebread.com/files/fruganomics/wisebread_imce/its-a-wonderful-life-title.jpg

The conservative

http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/Drama/Drama/WonderfulPotter4.jpg




The liberal

http://libsyn.com/podcasts/matineeplayhouse/images/Logo-RNN-Scrooge.jpg

The conservative

http://soundbiteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/scrooge.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:07 pm
I disagree Blatham. Conservativism typifies all the positive energy in your illustrations, but in each case it is individual responsibility, individual choice, indiividual participation that brings about positive change. It provides incentives for people to see things differently; to do things differently. Liberalism FORCES people to comply with certain choices, none of which happened at any time in any of your illustrations.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:15 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z69/BerniceL1/compass.png

eh Beth- I did not particularly like that test. Some of the questions were slanted or worded in a way that I found unacceptable. Anyhow, here is how I ended up.

It's all a matter of perspective!!!


Absolutely a matter of perspective - and it appears that you're on the chart very much where you described yourself at the beginning of the thread (though not as libertarian as you believe yourself to be - which matches my perception of your real position).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:17 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I disagree Blatham. Conservativism typifies all the positive energy in your illustrations, but in each case it is individual responsibility, individual choice, indiividual participation that brings about positive change. It provides incentives for people to see things differently; to do things differently. Liberalism FORCES people to comply with certain choices, none of which happened at any time in any of your illustrations.


Oh fer shurr.

Potter would have voted liberal, no question.

Scrooge, before the three visitations would have voted liberal, no question.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 12:45 pm
blatham wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I disagree Blatham. Conservativism typifies all the positive energy in your illustrations, but in each case it is individual responsibility, individual choice, indiividual participation that brings about positive change. It provides incentives for people to see things differently; to do things differently. Liberalism FORCES people to comply with certain choices, none of which happened at any time in any of your illustrations.


Oh fer shurr.

Potter would have voted liberal, no question.

Scrooge, before the three visitations would have voted liberal, no question.


Potter was a greedy opportunist which is a condition not reserved for any particular ideology. George Bailey valued everything that Conservatives value: home/family/tradition/charity/responsibility/obligation and the ability of humankind to overcome diversity. Scrooge started out as a Potter and then came to realize his ability and opportunity to make a difference and he did. But it was not through mandates and regulation that he did so, but through the opportunity to weigh the advantages of the choices to be made - incentive.

I think it is not conservative principles that creates a Pottersville, but rather lack of traditional values that reject many of the more degrading aspects of human nature.

Some Consevatives are looking at candidates mostly for reasons of national security and fiscal responsibility that will allow people the ability to pursue and achieve their dreams and take care of themselves and their families. Others are looking at candidates mostly for reasons of preserving a uniquely special way of life with hopes of turning back the clock to the time when a more conservative society was more kind to one another and you didn't worry about somebody gunning down students in a school; where neighbors took care of neighbors.

You will probably disagree, but I think Conservatives see liberals as probably wanting the same things, but they think the way to accomplish it is by forcing the haves to provide for the have nots instead of providing incentives for the have nots to make themselves into haves. Conservatives see that mentality as counterproductive and believe it contributes to creation of the Pottersvilles of the world.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 01:01 pm
On the test EBeth and Phoenix took, I was right in the middle at the lower edge of the blue square (upper right). I think the score would have looked much different if the questions had not been so obviously biased and had provided balanced choices however. It would not allow you to skip questions for which there was no acceptable answer.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Feb, 2008 01:02 pm
And your thesis is made all the stronger from noting that both authors were conservatives.
0 Replies
 
 

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