GeorgeCrofton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:15 pm
J_B.

Do as you like... Think what you like... It sure does not bother me...
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:20 pm
I'm not trying to bother you, George. I'd just never heard that the ACLU was opposed to personal expression of religion on public property before. I just found this which I found interesting...

Quote:
NEWARK, NJ -- The American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey today announced that it is seeking to participate as a friend-of-the-court in the case of a second-grade student who was barred from singing a religious song in a voluntary, after-school talent show.

"There is a distinction between speech by a school and speech by individual students," said ACLU of New Jersey cooperating attorney Jennifer Klear of Drinker, Biddle & Reath in New York City. "The Constitution protects a student's individual right to express herself, including the right to express herself religiously."

According to the complaint filed by the second-grade student and her parents, an elementary school in Frenchtown prohibited the student, Olivia Turton, from singing the song "Awesome God" in a voluntary, after-school talent show. The talent show was open for anyone from first through eighth grades who wished to play solo instruments, dance, perform a skit or sing to karaoke. Students were permitted to select their own songs or skits so long as they were "G-rated."

Because the school left the choice of songs up to each individual student, the ACLU said, no reasonable observer would have believed that the school endorsed the content of each student's selection.

"The ACLU of New Jersey has dedicated itself to protecting the right of individual religious expression, including recently helping to ensure that jurors are not removed from jury pools for wearing religious clothing and that prisoners are able to obtain religious literature," noted ACLU of New Jersey Legal Director Ed Barocas. "This student also deserves our full support."

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/20174prs20050920.html?ht=god%20god


It seems they are saying just the opposite.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:26 pm
Quote:
Joint Statement of Current Law on Religion in the Public Schools (4/12/1995)

Religion In The Public Schools:
A Joint Statement Of Current Law

The Constitution permits much private religious activity in and about the public schools. Unfortunately, this aspect of constitutional law is not as well known as it should be. Some say that the Supreme Court has declared the public schools "religion-free zones" or that the law is so murky that school officials cannot know what is legally permissible. The former claim is simply wrong. And as to the latter, while there are some difficult issues, much has been settled. It is also unfortunately true that public school officials, due to their busy schedules, may not be as fully aware of this body of law as they could be. As a result, in some school districts some of these rights are not being observed.

The organizations whose names appear below span the ideological, religious and political spectrum. They nevertheless share a commitment both to the freedom of religious practice and to the separation of church and state such freedom requires. In that spirit, we offer this statement of consensus on current law as an aid to parents, educators and students.

Many of the organizations listed below are actively involved in litigation about religion in the schools. On some of the issues discussed in this summary, some of the organizations have urged the courts to reach positions different than they did. Though there are signatories on both sides which have and will press for different constitutional treatments of some of the topics discussed below, they all agree that the following is an accurate statement of what the law currently is.
Student Prayers

1. Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive. Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and discuss religion with other willing student listeners. In the classroom students have the right to pray quietly except when required to be actively engaged in school activities (e.g., students may not decide to pray just as a teacher calls on them). In informal settings, such as the cafeteria or in the halls, students may pray either audibly or silently, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other speech in these locations. However, the right to engage in voluntary prayer does not include, for example, the right to have a captive audience listen or to compel other students to participate.
Graduation Prayer and Baccalaureates

2. School officials may not mandate or organize prayer at graduation, nor may they organize a religious baccalaureate ceremony. If the school generally rents out its facilities to private groups, it must rent them out on the same terms, and on a first- come first-served basis, to organizers of privately sponsored religious baccalaureate services, provided that the school does not extend preferential treatment to the baccalaureate ceremony and the school disclaims official endorsement of the program.

3. The courts have reached conflicting conclusions under the federal Constitution on student-initiated prayer at graduation. Until the issue is authoritatively resolved, schools should ask their lawyers what rules apply in their area.
Official Participation or Encouragement
of Religious Activity

4. Teachers and school administrators, when acting in those capacities, are representatives of the state, and, in those capacities, are themselves prohibited from encouraging or soliciting student religious or anti-religious activity. Similarly, when acting in their official capacities, teachers may not engage in religious activities with their students. However, teachers may engage in private religious activity in faculty lounges.
Teaching About Religion

5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said, "t might well be said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." It would be difficult to teach art, music, literature and most social studies without considering religious influences.

The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature (either as a separate course or within some other existing course), are all permissible public school subjects. It is both permissible and desirable to teach objectively about the role of religion in the history of the United States and other countries. One can teach that the Pilgrims came to this country with a particular religious vision, that Catholics and others have been subject to persecution or that many of those participating in the abolitionist, women's suffrage and civil rights movements had religious motivations.

6. These same rules apply to the recurring controversy surrounding theories of evolution. Schools may teach about explanations of life on earth, including religious ones (such as "creationism"), in comparative religion or social studies classes. In science class, however, they may present only genuinely scientific critiques of, or evidence for, any explanation of life on earth, but not religious critiques (beliefs unverifiable by scientific methodology). Schools may not refuse to teach evolutionary theory in order to avoid giving offense to religion nor may they circumvent these rules by labeling as science an article of religious faith. Public schools must not teach as scientific fact or theory any religious doctrine, including "creationism," although any genuinely scientific evidence for or against any explanation of life may be taught. Just as they may neither advance nor inhibit any religious doctrine, teachers should not ridicule, for example, a student's religious explanation for life on earth.
Student Assignments and Religion

7. Students may express their religious beliefs in the form of reports, homework and artwork, and such expressions are constitutionally protected. Teachers may not reject or correct such submissions simply because they include a religious symbol or address religious themes. Likewise, teachers may not require students to modify, include or excise religious views in their assignments, if germane. These assignments should be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance, relevance, appearance and grammar.

8. Somewhat more problematic from a legal point of view are other public expressions of religious views in the classroom. Unfortunately for school officials, there are traps on either side of this issue, and it is possible that litigation will result no matter what course is taken. It is easier to describe the settled cases than to state clear rules of law. Schools must carefully steer between the claims of student speakers who assert a right to express themselves on religious subjects and the asserted rights of student listeners to be free of unwelcome religious persuasion in a public school classroom.

a. Religious or anti-religious remarks made in the ordinary course of classroom discussion or student presentations are permissible and constitute a protected right. If in a sex education class a student remarks that abortion should be illegal because God has prohibited it, a teacher should not silence the remark, ridicule it, rule it out of bounds or endorse it, any more than a teacher may silence a student's religiously-based comment in favor of choice.

b. If a class assignment calls for an oral presentation on a subject of the student's choosing, and, for example, the student responds by conducting a religious service, the school has the right -- as well as the duty -- to prevent itself from being used as a church. Other students are not voluntarily in attendance and cannot be forced to become an unwilling congregation.

c. Teachers may rule out-of-order religious remarks that are irrelevant to the subject at hand. In a discussion of Hamlet's sanity, for example, a student may not interject views on creationism.

Distribution of Religious Literature

9. Students have the right to distribute religious literature to their schoolmates, subject to those reasonable time, place, and manner or other constitutionally- acceptable restrictions imposed on the distribution of all non-school literature. Thus, a school may confine distribution of all literature to a particular table at particular times. It may not single out religious literature for burdensome regulation.

10. Outsiders may not be given access to the classroom to distribute religious or anti-religious literature. No court has yet considered whether, if all other community groups are permitted to distribute literature in common areas of public schools, religious groups must be allowed to do so on equal terms subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions.
"See You at the Pole"

11. Student participation in before- or after-school events, such as "see you at the pole," is permissible. School officials, acting in an official capacity, may neither discourage nor encourage participation in such an event.
Religious Persuasion Versus Religious Harassment

12. Students have the right to speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics. But school officials should intercede to stop student religious speech if it turns into religious harassment aimed at a student or a small group of students. While it is constitutionally permissible for a student to approach another and issue an invitation to attend church, repeated invitations in the face of a request to stop constitute harassment. Where this line is to be drawn in particular cases will depend on the age of the students and other circumstances.
Equal Access Act

13. Student religious clubs in secondary schools must be permitted to meet and to have equal access to campus media to announce their meetings, if a school receives federal funds and permits any student non-curricular club to meet during non-instructional time. This is the command of the Equal Access Act. A non-curricular club is any club not related directly to a subject taught or soon-to-be taught in the school. Although schools have the right to ban all non-curriculum clubs, they may not dodge the law's requirement by the expedient of declaring all clubs curriculum-related. On the other hand, teachers may not actively participate in club activities and "non-school persons" may not control or regularly attend club meeting.

The Act's constitutionality has been upheld by the Supreme Court, rejecting claims that the Act violates the Establishment Clause. The Act's requirements are described in more detail in The Equal Access Act and the Public Schools: Questions and Answers on the Equal Access Act*, a pamphlet published by a broad spectrum of religious and civil liberties groups.
Religious Holidays

14. Generally, public schools may teach about religious holidays, and may celebrate the secular aspects of the holiday and objectively teach about their religious aspects. They may not observe the holidays as religious events. Schools should generally excuse students who do not wish to participate in holiday events. Those interested in further details should see Religious Holidays in the Public Schools: Questions and Answers*, a pamphlet published by a broad spectrum of religious and civil liberties groups.
Excusal From Religiously-Objectionable Lessons

15. Schools enjoy substantial discretion to excuse individual students from lessons which are objectionable to that student or to his or her parent on the basis of religion. Schools can exercise that authority in ways which would defuse many conflicts over curriculum content. If it is proved that particular lessons substantially burden a student's free exercise of religion and if the school cannot prove a compelling interest in requiring attendance the school would be legally required to excuse the student.
Teaching Values

16. Schools may teach civic virtues, including honesty, good citizenship, sportsmanship, courage, respect for the rights and freedoms of others, respect for persons and their property, civility, the dual virtues of moral conviction and tolerance and hard work. Subject to whatever rights of excusal exist (see #15 above) under the federal Constitution and state law, schools may teach sexual abstinence and contraception; whether and how schools teach these sensitive subjects is a matter of educational policy. However, these may not be taught as religious tenets. The mere fact that most, if not all, religions also teach these values does not make it unlawful to teach them.
Student Garb

17. Religious messages on T-shirts and the like may not be singled out for suppression. Students may wear religious attire, such as yarmulkes and head scarves, and they may not be forced to wear gym clothes that they regard, on religious grounds, as immodest.
Released Time

18. Schools have the discretion to dismiss students to off-premises religious instruction, provided that schools do not encourage or discourage participation or penalize those who do not attend. 20. Schools may not allow religious instruction by outsiders on premises during the school day.
Appendix

Organizational Signers of "Religion in the Public Schools: A Joint Statement of Current Law"

American Civil Liberties Union
American Ethical Union
American Humanist Association
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
American Muslim Council
Americans for Religious Liberty
Americans United for Seperation of Church and State
Anti-Defamation League
Baptist Joint Committee
B'nai B'rith
Christian Legal Society
Christian Science Church
Church of Scientology International
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot
Friends Committee on National Legislation
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Guru Gobind Singh Foundation
Interfaith Alliance
Interfaith Impact for Justice and Peace
National Association of Evangelicals
National Council of Churches
National Council of Jewish Women
National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council (NJCRAC)
National Ministries, American Baptist Churches, USA
National Sikh Center
North American Council for Muslim Women
People for the American Way
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society

http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16146leg19950412.html
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:30 pm
Re: WoodenButt
GeorgeCrofton wrote:
TimberButt,

etc etc etc


Working at establishing your credentials, are ya? Freindly advice - heed the suggestion offered you [bn]a few pages back[/b]. A review of the [Terms of Service well might save you some inconvenience.


As referrenced elsewhere, familiarizing yourself with the postings of members generally is a good idea, should one wish to comment upon or otherwise assess the character or quality of said members' interactions.


Then there's that whole Superman's Cape thing ... :wink:


Do as you please ... each individual member here pretty much structures their own experience here.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:31 pm
What has happened to all of your resolutions to preview and proofread, Feather Ball ?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 01:35 pm
Setanta wrote:
What has happened to all of your resolutions to preview and proofread, Feather Ball ?

Right there with the rest of the pavingblocks on the road to the nether regions, apparently Laughing
0 Replies
 
GeorgeCrofton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 03:37 pm
This is the ACLU action that cause my to no longer to support them...

Federal court says: It's okay to pray (in public school)!
Question: What impact does the decision by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chandler v. James have on the ability of children to have freedom to pray in public schools?
Answer: Thank you for your inquiry regarding the very important case of Chandler v. James which was decided by the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeal on July 13, 1999. The decision of the court of appeals reversed a decision of an Alabama District Court in which Judge Ina DeMent had barred all student prayer in the public schools of Alabama. He even installed what came to be referred to as 3prayer police2 to ensure that Alabama schools complied with his orders. This district court decision by Judge DeMent was considered appalling by Christians all across the country and the appeal was carefully monitored by many Americans concerned with freedom of speech and religious expression. Judge DeMent1s ruling prohibited DeKalb County schools from "permitting" vocal prayer or other devotional speech. The judge had required school officials to forbid students from praying while in school or at any school-related events, even on their own initiative. The case was originally filed at the district court level by the ACLU for a vice-principal and a student in the DeKalb County school system. These plaintiffs were challenging the constitutionality of an Alabama statute that contained the following provision: "On public school, or other property, non-sectarian, non-proselytizing student-initiated voluntary prayer, invocation and/or benedictions, shall be permitted during compulsory or non-compulsory school-related student assemblies, school related student sporting events, school-related graduation or commencement ceremonies, and other school-related events." Ala. Code Û 16-1-20.3(b) (1995).
The ACLU alleged that, by applying the statute and permitting students to pray, the DeKalb County School Board had engaged in unconstitutional school-sponsored religious activity and sued the Governor of Alabama and the DeKalb County School Board. Judge DeMent agreed with the ACLU and held that the statute was unconstitutional. He permanently enjoined the DeKalb County School Board from enforcing the statute and forbade them to permit students to pray in school, even on their own initiative.Judge DeMent's decision caused a furor in Alabama schools. The Christian Law Association was involved in helping Christian students take legal protest measures against this decision through petitions and statements of appreciation to the Alabama legislature for having enacted the challenged legislation. The Governor of Alabama appealed Judge DeMent1s decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit as did the DeKalb County School Board. The School Board argued on appeal that the district court could not constitutionally enjoin religious student speech, pointing out that the Supreme Court has made it very clear that "[t]here is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clause protect." (quoting Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, 496
U.S. 226, 250 (1990)).
The court of appeals limited its review of Judge DeMent1s Permanent Injunction to the issue of whether the district court might constitutionally prohibit student-initiated religious speech in its schools. The court of appeals held that it may not. The ACLU had argued to the court of appeals that the state has a positive duty to censor student speech if it is religious. The Court held that student-initiated religious speech, even if it includes prayer or incidentally advances religion, does not violate the Establishment Clause. Rather, it is this type of private speech that the First Amendment protects. Student religious speech may be subject only to the same reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions placed on all other student speech in the public school. The court made clear that any suppression of student-initiated speech, merely because it was religious, would demonstrate, not neutrality, but hostility towards religious speech: The bottom line is: the court of appeals held that nonsectarian, non-proselytizing student-initiated prayer may be permitted at school-related events. The Court said that "cleansing" public schools of all religious expression would inevitably result in the "establishment" of disbelief-or atheism-as the State's religion and that the government may not prefer disbelief over religion. Permitting students to speak religiously signifies neither state approval nor disapproval of that speech. Such permission merely signifies that the State acknowledges its constitutional duty to tolerate religious expression. Only in this way is true constitutional neutrality achieved. Because genuinely student-initiated religious speech is private speech endorsing religion, it is fully protected by both the Free Exercise and the Free Speech Clauses of the Constitution. In resolving the tension between the right to pray and the right to be free from government-mandated prayer, the court of appeals
specifically held that:
(1) genuinely student-initiated religious speech must be permitted;
(2) a student's individual decision to pray or otherwise speak religiously must not be by the State's command;
(3) student religious speech must be without oversight or supervision and subject only to the same reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions as secular student speech in school.
The court of appeals held that even if permitting student-initiated religious speech advances religion in some sense, this does not mean the speech violates the Establishment Clause. Furthermore, the fact that religious speech might be offensive to one or even to many other persons does not make it unconstitutional. Only when the speech is actually commanded, rather than merely permitted, bythe State does the religious speech unconstitutionally coerce the listener. Since the court of appeals remanded this case back to the district court, further action consistent with its decision may be forthcoming, but the district court is now prohibited from interfering with the basic free speech rights of religious students.
You can read the entire decision by going to: http://www.law.emory.edu/11circuit/july99/97-6898.man.html (See Chandler v. James,
Nos. 97-6898, 97-6953, USCA, 11th Circuit, July 13, 1999)
Written by Barbara J. Weller
Christian Law Association
Used by Permission
Upholding the Authority of the Bible from the Very First Verse
Page 1 of Federal court says: It's okay to pray (in public school)! 1
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4115.asp 11/30/2005
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:13 pm
George, today is the first time I've ever spent any time looking at the ACLU. I read your post, the full Eleventh Circuit rulling from the Emory Law link, and then went hunting on the ACLU site for their side of the story. Here's what I found

Quote:
In Long-Awaited Victory, High Court Vacates Alabama Decision Allowing Public School Prayer (6/26/2000)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

MONTGOMERY, AL -- The American Civil Liberties Union today welcomed a Supreme Court order essentially reversing a ruling that let public school students in an Alabama county lead group prayers at graduations, assemblies and sports events.

The Justices told a federal appeals court to restudy Chandler v. Siegelman, a 1996 case, in light of a major school-prayer decision they announced last week in a Texas case. In that ruling, the court said prayer in public schools must be private and that such prayers at high school football games violate the constitutionally required separation of church and state.

"This is a victory for our clients Michael and Jesse Chandler and also a tremendous victory for the Constitution," said ACLU cooperating attorney Elizabeth Hubertz, one of the Chandler family's lawyers. "Our only regret is that this predictable result, consistent with 40 years of Constitutional law, did not come sooner."

After the Justices barred clergy-led prayers at public school graduation ceremonies in 1992, Alabama legislators enacted a law requiring public schools to allow student-initiated prayer at "compulsory or non-compulsory" school activities including sporting events, student assemblies and graduations.

In 1996, acting on behalf of Michael Chandler and his son, Jesse, the ACLU of Alabama challenged the law and its enforcement in DeKalb County public schools.

In legal papers, the ACLU said, Jesse's school let students lead Christian prayers in classrooms and over the intercom, and allowed students or clergy to lead prayers at graduations, football games and student assemblies. Gideon Bibles were handed out in classrooms by non-school personnel.

Judge Ira DeMent entered an injunction prohibiting these practices but explicitly recognizing students' rights to pray individually or in small groups, to pray and proselytize during lunch, recess, before and after school, and during other free time, to distribute religious literature, and to express their religious beliefs in artwork, homework, and other academically appropriate contexts.

The Eleventh Circuit then set aside portions of Judge DeMent's injunction, holding that prayer over the intercom owned by the school board was "private" speech if anyone other than a school board employee delivered it.

The Supreme Court explicitly rejected that position last week, focusing on the governmental sponsorship of religion that occurs when the public schools allow their intercoms to be used for prayer before an audience that is either made to be there such as in a classroom, or is only there because the school event draws them, such as football games.

In the appeal acted on Monday, the ACLU said, schools cannot "engage unwilling students in religious activity as part of school-controlled events."

"Truly private prayer neither seeks nor requires a microphone and an audience," the appeal said.

"It will now be the duty of the Eleventh Circuit not to reinstate its previous opinion and to follow the law as the Supreme Court just announced it," said ACLU of Alabama cooperating attorney Pamela Sumners. "Today's ruling could not be made more clear."

Since the Eleventh Circuit decision has been vacated, Judge DeMent's injunction remains in full force and effect, Sumners noted. It forbids school-sponsored prayer and other coercive religious practices regardless of who the speaker is, and focuses on the use of state facilities to promote religion and also on the coercive settings of classrooms and school events.

The case is Chandler vs. Siegelman, 99-935.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16286prs20000626.html?ht=%22michael%20chandler%22%20%22michael%20chandler%22


It seems this stems from the practice of having public prayer forced on kids that don't want to pray, either at sporting events or during morning 'prayer time'. From my own standpoint, I'm not offended by public prayer, but I acknowledge that some are and the ACLU took the case on the side of a family who was offended by being forced to listen to prayers over the loudspeaker during school hours/functions. I take it you think that public prayer over the loudspeaker should be encouraged in public schools and that those who are offended by praying to the Christian God in a public forum such as a compulsory school assembly should suck it up and get over it, is that right? Well, I suppose I could agree with you if we wanted to give equal loudspeaker time to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, wiccans, neopagans, etc., but after all those prayers I'm not sure there'd be much time left for school.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:15 pm
George, you do realize, i hope, that quoting a Federal court's finding in such an unusual manner, with a link to a religious web site, makes your material suspect.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:21 pm
"Suspect", I believe, is too kind a term by a large measure in the current application.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:25 pm
Yeah, but it really doesn't matter, does it, if the material presented happens to be correct?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:30 pm
This is a pretty interesting case. Chandler (the plaintif) was an Assistant Principle at the school as well as a parent of a student. He objected to use of the loudspeaker for public prayer to begin the school day, assemblies, sporting events, graduations, etc. The original ruling by Judge De Ment banned the use of loudspeakers but permitted

Quote:
private prayer, wearing of religious clothing and symbols, distribution of religious literature, and attempts by students to persuade their schoolmates on religious matters during their free time.


The Eleventh Circuit overturned this decision and allowed

Quote:
prayer and devotional activities even where students are compelled to attend, including in the classrooms. The ruling allows any person who is not a school official to lead group prayer before captive audiences of K-12 schoolchildren, even though some students or their parents would object to this state sponsorship of religion.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/16170prs19991203.html?ht=%22michael%20chandler%22%20%22michael%20chandler%22


This was eventually overturned by the SC in the ruling quoted in the prior post.

I tend to agree with the ACLU on this one, George. No one is trying to prohibit private expression of religious belief. They just want to keep the loudspeaker out of it when it comes to prayer. I think it's interesting that they fought on behalf of the girl who wanted to sing a religious song in an after-school event.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:34 pm
neologist wrote:
Yeah, but it really doesn't matter, does it, if the material presented happens to be correct?


It matters a great deal, in that George is asserting that the ACLU acted reprehensibly, in his opinion. They filed an amicus curiae brief in the case to which he referred, but the text he provides does not quote that brief. Furthermore, the quote of the court's decision has been edited--whatever comment on the amicus brief which the court might have made is therefore not available. Far more reliable would have been a link to the full text of the decision, as well as a text of the amicus brief--from neither the ACLU nor a bible site . . .
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 04:48 pm
Well, in that case. . .
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 05:00 pm
The SC sent it back to the Eleventh Circuit and they reinstated their previous ruling

Quote:
OVERVIEW: On remand from the United States Supreme Court, the court reviewed its previous decision to vacate the permanent injunction issued by the district court in light of recent United States Supreme Court precedent. The permanent injunction entered in favor of appellee students and against appellant school district prohibited religious speech in appellant's state public school. The court reinstated its earlier judgment, which held that the permanent injunction could neither prohibit genuinely student-initiated religious speech, nor apply restrictions on the time, place, and manner of that speech which exceed those placed on students' secular speech. An injunction that equated all student religious speech in any public context at school with state speech was too broad. Private student religious speech that occurred at school was not unconstitutional and, therefore, was protected. Additionally, a policy that tolerated religion did not improperly endorse it.

OUTCOME: The court reaffirmed, reinstated its judgment, and remanded to the district court, with the direction that the permanent injunction could neither prohibit genuinely student-initiated religious speech, nor apply restrictions on the time, place, and manner of that speech which exceed those placed on students' secular speech.
http://159.26.124.69/ussc/chandler/opinion.asp


It looks like the loudspeakers are in use for prayer in Alabama.
0 Replies
 
GeorgeCrofton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 05:46 pm
It was a difficult time locating anything pertaining to this case... I am sorry that I was unable to provide more data...

Thank you J_B and others for researching...

My 70 year old eyes causes my screen to become out of focus while conducting a long search...

I plan to keep silent and enjoy the lessons that you are giving me... Your Information Is Very Interesting. I guess that I have become an old has been...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 06:01 pm
Don't beat up on yourself, there are plenty of others in the world all too happy to do that for you.

My eyesight has been failing, and i'm just 55. But there are ways to work around it, to deal with it. As far as court decisions go, Find Law is always a good place to start. I don't pretend to have any expertise on the subject--which to me is all the more reason to research such things carefully.

Personally, i have seen in my lifetime that the ACLU seems to eventually offend almost--but not quite--everyone. That suggests to me that they have no sacred cows, and are doing their best to be fair minded. If they once give up on a case because it might offend some segment of the population, they cease to fulfill their mission--in my never humble opinion.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 06:02 pm
Stick around, George. You're entitled to your opinion as much as the next guy. Have you looked around at the other forums here at A2K? Many of them are much less contentious. Religion, Philosophy, and Politics tend to be the snarliest ones but there's plenty of fun here for everyone!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Nov, 2005 06:03 pm
well george join the company, there are a number of us has beens on this forum. we all have ideas and attitudes from our own histories and we all get a bit testy from time to time but this is a dynamic community as long as we try to keep it that way. put your toe in the water before jumping in and you might see a more welcome response.
0 Replies
 
 

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