Should I Leave - Or Make Her Leave?

I'm actually lost for words at the moment, but I'll be back to respond when I've had some time to think about it.

Flummoxed--

Welcome to A2K.

You are certainly not having a peaceful time in your sunset years.

I'm your age. "Numb" is a perfectly normal reaction when faced with an act of unfaithfulness and a woman who seems to be well-meaning but immature.

Counseling--ASAP. Marital counseling if she'll go with you. Individual counseling if she won't.

You two must have noticed the 30 year age difference when you married, but being caught up in love and lust, you probably overlooked some of the implications of the age difference.

Remember, your love for your kids and your relationship with your kids is with them--not with their mother.

How much back-up family support do you have where you are right now? How much family support would you have where you own property? Does your wife have family in either area?

Counseling. ASAP. You need a sounding board to figure out both a marriage plan and a life plan.

Thank you for your input. I guess finding this board and posting here was my instinctive search for counselling.

I'd have no family support where I come from just as I have none here. I'm from a dysfunctional family in that sense at least.

My wife is now in a different country from her own. She's got no family in this country whatever. But she does have a good relationship with her sister whom she speaks to regularly on the phone and she does have a number of other people she interacts with at least, both of her own nationality and of mine. How intimate she gets with them I don't know, I don't really think she shares this problem with them.

These 'other people' come about because she's busy studying, working (only a little) and doing voluntary activities.

I'm doing nothing but looking after the kids and trying to find the time to do other things that I believe need doing. This accounts for my long face, bad temper, etc., - I stomp around talking out loud to myself about how inconvenient this house is, how much I've got to do and how I can't find the time to do it, how hard the kids make eveything - just generally moaning and whinging and savagely (relatively savagely, I'm not a total madman) reacting to the stresses and strains and impositions.

Hello flummoxed and welcome to a2k!

Well, if you thought a 29 year old girl is married to a 66 year old for
love, then you certainly must believe in the tooth fairy too. You must
have seen the train lights coming at you, why are you so surprised
to be run over now?

You're saying your wife is from another country. How did the two of
you meet? Sorry to say, but "mail-order bride" is something that comes
to my mind here.

Frankly, I am appalled that neither your wife nor you have made the
children your first priority. These are two little human beings that are
dependent on you for your love and welfare. Stick to your responsibilities
and give the children what they need, if your wife is unable or unwilling to provide for them.

I thinking she's worried about her own support should you decide to leave (with or without the kids). It sounds more like she's making sure you don't leave her than the other way around. Is she financially secure and independent or might she be worried about you cutting off her lifestyle?

In agreement with Jane and Eoe. I was lost for words in my previous post because I was shocked at the 2 of you trying to pawn your children off on eachother and it completely breaks my heart for those poor kids.

These are your children and you're speaking about them like they were some useless swamp land that you could live without!

I don't mean to sound harsh, but children deserved to at least be wanted a little by their parent and from where I sit, I don't feel the love.

If it were me, I would have said "the hell with everything else" and I would have fought to the bitter end for my children!

You said - "After 5 good years she's now getting antsy about my bad temper, my anger, my miserable face day after day and about not enough screwing (well, virtually none). "


And you are in disbelif that she left?

Man, you don't have a clue what's going on!!!

Geez Montana - I hope gus doesn't see that and get all offended and do a bunk again!

All parents love their children... but even we parents ( as humans..) fall into shock at times where we feel next to nothing about anything at all.

I dont think he is saying he does not love his children.

I hear him saying that this issue has hit him so hard, he even notices it in how he feels about his kids at the moment

Maybe you're right Shewolf. Maybe I missed something somewhere in between the lines, but it still breaks my heart for these kids.

I hope I am..

Me too!

Hi...

I've been busy, thinking my own thoughts about my own things and thinking about your replies.

It's not easy to find time to sit at a computer and respond to emails. My 'mate' is making a definite effort to help today and she's gone for a walk with the children. I sat down to do other things and finished up here.

Didn't sit down to come here because I haven't finished my meditations regarding your varied responses - still don't really know what I want to say.

So that's gonna boil down to extra wordiness and lack of precision.

But might as well go with it while I'm here.

Before I get into detailed response, look at each post, think about it, reply to it, look at the next one, etc.... I can say this right off the top of my head, or off the cuff or whatever..... I'm surprised that people with so many posts on this forum can manifest such belligerence and uncharitable prejudice.....

But, I realised, this is a forum, not a collection of qualified 'counsellors'. It would be interesting to know considering, as I said, this is my first stop substitute for counselling, how many ( if any ) of the posters her are in fact qualified counsellors of any kind (given that qualifications will vary wildly in any case and sheer experience is, in fact, a qualification in itself) ?


Okay... on with the detailed stuff:

Well, first there seems to have been a sudden flurry of posts as I was writing mine, there... strange coincidence, eh?


Right, first: Montana. Said she was lost for words, back later. But also said her signature, which in itself speaks volumes.

Second: Noddy. What I thought was a very reasonable and sensible response. It helped me inasmuch as I felt I'd heard from a human being if nothing else.

Third Calamity Jane. I find her pretty immature. Let me tell you that a 66 year old can be married to a 29 year old for love, though, Jane, even if it can't happen the other way round. And I've got no proof that it can't happen the other way round.

And 'love' needs a lot of defining. It is almost entirely NOT what it is commonly thought to be. In fact I decided to love this girl. I made a cold decision (if you like) to manifest love and caring. In the spirit of 'it ain't what you say, it's what you do' and in the spirit of 'I've got so much... I ought to help a little someone who hasn't..'

And that's love.

But it's not mad, passionate, thoughtless, tempestuous, unbridled, savage lustful love. No. It's not. And it never pretended to be.

I won't talk too much.....

'Children first priority...' , 'appalled', fine words that I take it have their major function in giving expression to what you want us to think is the nature of your inner being - i.e. supremely children loving and therefore innately superior to anything else.

Despite the fact that you a pre-judging. And that's prejudice. And that's a no-no, not a virtue.

My question is, in fact, how to do the best for wife and children in this situation? You choose not to read it that way. After 14,691 posts.

So there's great significance there in different world views, apparently.

But I must not take too much time, too many words....

JPB said something measured and reasonable and didn't (unlike myself) waste any time or breath, words, RSI potential, by addressing every red herring in sight. In fact he asked very pertinent and reasonable questions and surmised what I think is very possibly the truth.

She wouldn't want me to leave her. She's not financially secure and independent. But let's not be uncharitable. There's far more to it than that. She can manage. But she doesn't want such a horrible story, such a horrible ending, such an incident in her life story. She has other motivations than pure 'look after myself' economic motivations.

She's also a normal human being and she's facing a strange country and struggling to find skills and opportunity and she needs help. A little fear and uncertainty is quite acceptable in these circumstances, I think.

O.K. enough, though I'd like to talk with JPB more.

EOE: Yeah, right, it does sound like she wanted it to go this way and then backpedalled. Well I made her backpedal by saying 'if you do this I'll do that' which is the typical argument, isn't it? This doesn't make her the villain.

She perhaps wanted it all her own way. Envisaged a fine future in dreamland where she gets her own place and does her own thing and finds lovers of her own age, etc., etc., whatever, whatever... and comes back whenever she likes, every day perhaps, and sees her children which she is completely relieved of any responsibility for the caring of... and maintains a good happy relationship with the chidren's father.

Well? I've met that before. It's very adult isn't it? Very grown up? The right way to be? The successful conclusion of an amicable separation?

So that's cool. Same as JPB I'd like to talk with you more.

But the second half: 'both of you have a take 'em or leave 'em...' was ameliorated by '... sounds like....' and that may be true. If so then I'm sorry. I mean, it IS true but it is NOT true.

It is true that both of us are willing to leave 'em to the other. It is NOT true that we're willing to do this because we don't care. It is BECAUSE we care that we're both hastily avowing to each other that we won't get in the way, won't bar access, won't hurt.....

Which all falls down, of course, when I say I'll go back home and take them with me. That's me the villain again.

Next was Montana for the second time, having finished her cogitations, found her tongue and happy to give vent.... with a broken heart, broken by my wife and I, our likening our children to useless swamp land.....
Hmmm. It's a bit by-the-bye but 'useless swamp land' nowadays is often seen to be the most precious asset in the vicinity. Yes, but that's by-the-bye.

Her 'main thrust', as I think they say nowadays or in recent times at any rate, was that one should '....fought to the bitter end...' for her children.

I'd surmise - like, being on the outside, a non-counsellor, a person in need, a faller-by-way, I can only surmise, I don't know - that it'd be better for the children to be 'owned' (or whatever category of possession Montana is supposing in her fight to the bitter end) by both parents as was their (I'd, again, surmise) birthright and for the nature of that 'owning' to parallel as much as possible the natural, however that can be worked out from studies of natural humanity, parents, families, child care, etc...

My 'main thrust' is that I find it startling that such a leap of prejudice be made and that such a direction be advocated at such an early and undefined stage by anyone, much less a person with 20037 posts, presumably all directed towards people with major problems.

The very word 'fight' is something I find inappropriate at this juncture and quite possibly inappropriate wholly in the context.

The next was Sullyfish who quoted me and queried me that I was in disbelief that 'she left'.

Well thanks for your input, Sully, but she didn't leave, yet, that's still in the offing and in fact the question was (amongst other things) '...should I make her go...'.

Secondly I don't think I'm in disbelief (but maybe I am). It's my feeling that I'm in belief and accepting of the situation but unable to find the appropriate answer, action, reaction (proaction?) to it.

Thirdly I think you misread the quote somewhat - it is a little semantically ambiguous and that's my fault. It could be read as meaning that I'd been angry, bad tempered and miserable for 5 years and I think that's the reading that you are reacting to.

But in fact it means that after 5 GOOD years ( no anger, misery, bad temper) she NOW reacts to its appearance. (What has prompted it hasn't been gone into.)

Next was Mame who only talked to Montana.

Next was shewolf with only 18180 posts and she only addresses Montana and I like what she says.

Then Montana surmises she might have missed something (rather than have imagined something) but tells us that her heart is still broken, which makes me, for one, somewhat concerned about the state of Montanas heart. If it gets broken so readily on so little evidence just what condition must it be in now? After 20037 posts?

And then shewolf hopes she's right and finally Montana also hopes she's right.

Well I guess I'm the one to settle that.

And I'll try.

I am not saying that I do not love my children.

Okay?

I am truly sorry this post has been so long.

Probably better if I'd made a short answer that avoided any reciprocation and just stated something of my own feelings/attitudes/actions at this time.

Why didn't I do that?

Dunno. Maybe something to do with what's happening. Concentrating on this is something I can cling to and understand and exercise some control over, whereas the potential changes in our family and my/our future are largely totally beyond my control.....

I remain,

yours faithfully and still...

flummoxed

Going to see an actual coucillor is the only suggestion that I can make here, or rather, ditto.

Other than that, I'm sorry to hear you and your kids are going through this.

Everything may seem up in the air and to hell right now, but it's not necessarily as bad as it feels or seems.

I'm no expert, just have the experience of knowing that the feelings bottled up inside and the numb stage - with lots of words and intellectualizing things - is one of the hardest honestly because emotions can start taking on a life of their own and amplifying things that are smaller than they may seem.

And we all need friends. The sort that we can go through the hell of bad feelings with, even cry or whatever we need to. To speak from out gut to another person.

Perhaps the short supply around your little family, of friends for you and your wife, and opportunities to get the kind of support all humans really need, is part of the thing here.

Regardless, I hope you do find some solace here and something that may help.

take care.

flummoxed--

Thanks for the kind words.

As you've noticed, A2K members post from a variety of backgrounds and life accumulations. You're right, we are not mental health professionals--although living and cogitating on life gives certain qualifications. We're just us.

Your wife seems to be caught up in a passionate swirl of personal change. When you aren't the cardboard villain, you're wallpaper--convenient, house-husband wallpaper.

You are struggling to see the complete picture--and she's sure that this drama is All About Her.

Go for counseling--not marital counseling. Not yet. You need some reassurance that you aren't a complete ogre--just a man pitchforked into a very complicated situation--and some help in unraveling these complications.

Re: Should I Leave - Or Make Her Leave?


I'm going to respond to your post one section at a time, so maybe you'll understand why I responded the way I did.
Here, you talk about your bad temper, anger and miserable face day after day, which set up a red flag for me. I've lived with a man who had those qualities.



Here, your wife asks for a separation and you said "I say no but later on I change my mind". This spells control in my world!



Here, she wants to leave the kids with you and come visit whenever she wants, then you're there saying " I feel she could go and take the kids with her, I wouldn't scream and protest". As a parent, I'm not feeling the love here!


This part was nice :-D


And here's where you lost me again![/quote]





And I did. You just didn't like what I had to say!

If you came here to get sympathy and agreeable words, you are mistaken. Prejudice? You are very wrong here. No one knows you here!
We all go by your written words, and give our honest opinion, regardless of how different they may be. If you only want to hear how great you are, then please refer to your mother. Don't make us feel bad because we responded to your problem.




Oh, I have no doubt that you love your wife. The greater issue is: does
she love you too? Isn't it the reason why you are here seeking advice?
Your wife wants out of the marriage!

Pre-judging again? Don't we all judge the people who write here, including you? You're telling me I am immature and have no understanding or
sympathy for you. Aren't you judging me? Of course you are!!

Thing is, you only want to hear what suits you and your side. It doesn't work that way, and yes, my concern are with the children and not your bruised ego because your 29 year old wife is no longer interested living with a 66 year old man. If you're that delusional to think that there is no trade-off along the line between a 66 year old man and a 29 year old woman, then you got what you deserved. Wake up and get a grip on reality, and face your responsibilities - your children! Yes they need to be your first priority, not your bruised ego.

Re: Should I Leave - Or Make Her Leave?


Hello flummoxed and welcome to A2K. First I want to apologize for my joke to Montana which was inappropriate in your serious thread.

What I get from your words is that you are hurt and a little uncertain about what's really going on in your home/with your wife. I don't know if that's true, of course, just my impression. I also get that you and your kids have really bonded - you love them and they love you. And also that you love your wife.

Your wife may be going through some things and perhaps not sharing openly with you about what they are, and this is perhaps what is making you uncertain. Of course you don't insist that she stay with you if she doesn't want to be there. Perhaps you are not meeting all her needs, or perhaps she's had a change of heart and you're just not sure what's what.

The problem with asking for and receiving advice is that not all the information, nuances, tones, etc. can possibly be expressed, esp in one post... so it's very hard for any of us to supply worthwhile feedback. We've only some of the information available, and of course, it's all from one side, seen through your eyes and heart at the time. Three days from now, some new revelation may occur to you and the mood will shift, colouring your thoughts and feelings a different way - if you wrote about your issue then, it would have changed from three days earlier.

So.. having said all that, why not just sit down and ask her what she wants? And what is it you want? What would make the two of you happy? Do you want to continue to live with her?

The age difference is not relevant to me unless it's part of the problem that's not being addressed, so I'm not even going to go there. (If it's not an issue, it didn't need to be brought up as it just muddies the waters).

I guess I'm also a little uncertain about what it is you're asking for. Or do you just want to vent? That's okay, too, but I'm not sure what you're needing here. Could you be a little clearer or more specific about what exactly is the problem? Is it that she had an affair? Or you think she doesn't want to live with you anymore? Or that she doesn't love you anymore?

Thank you.