The US Economy

Naw, Light. Just because we pay them the least we can possibly get away with.... Don't forget, we're the land of the... well, you know...

Or was that "milk and honey"?

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"Snake oil and greased palms."

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You thinkin' back to last year's Longshoreman's strike CdK? That screwed up shipping world-wide. Those containers on the docks, and pn containerships off-shore, and the ships themselves, were "Out-of-rotation". Some vendors and manufacturers resorted to airfreight just to keep things moving. That in turn kicked up aitfreight rates. It wasn't untill about February everything got back to normal.
As for US imports, they well could suffer due to the dollar decline ... not really a bad thing overall from an American Production point of view, as long as the impact can be absorbed by the world market ... otherwise, both Asian and European GDP recovery will be hard pressed to continue apace. Should the dollar threaten to break above about 1.25 to the Euro, or 1 to 105 Yen, you might expect some serious dollar-buying and Euro and Yen dumping to occur.

Oh, and Tart, I'll agree that Big Business does its part to enable illegal immigrants ... which is outrageous. Agribusiness is in there too, and so is the Casual/Temp Labor industry. And walking right along in lockstep is the politically correct notion that illegals are entitled to the same rights, privileges, and care as are accorded to citizens. Untill it is effectively and enforceably overidingly inconvenient and cost-inneffective to employ illegals, grant them other than critical emergency medical care, or otherwise to enable them, the problem will remain. This WalMart thing is prolly just a blip, but I'd really like to see a vigorous crackdown, Federal, State, and Local, with sure and real penalties and mass deportations. I know one fellow, a naturalized citizen now, who, in one two-week period back in the 'Seventies, was stopped at the border twice, made into the US and was picked up and hauled back by "La Migre" seven times, and finally made all the way up to North Dakota ... where he lived and worked almost five years before being tripped up by having no driver's license following a traffic stop. He wound up joining the USN, and finally qualified thereby for citizenship. He owns a landscaping business, and employs illegals. Mad

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Well, Timber, as in so much else, I guess we'll have to disagree on desirable outcomes. Since much of my neck of the woods depends on temp labor, my preference would be a solid, humane guest worker program with health care, FICA, and good rules about affordable housing. The last thing I'd ever want to do is punish Mexicans for wanting economic security particularly since we want them here as labor. And finally (since I know some of them) I can assure you that both with respect to "family values" (a dreadful cliche, but you know what I mean) and reliability and honesty, they way outshine the equivalent and disaffected American worker at entry level.

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Tartar, I wouldn't want to punish anybody that wants to come to the US to work and pay taxes. However, if they wish to come into this country to work, they must do it legally. They should not have prefernce on getting citizenship over those that go through the legal process to become citizens of this country whether they are Mexicans or anybody else. I believe we are too liberal in giving illegals in this country the same benefits as legal citizens. Some liberals in California are now trying to give illegals the right to attend our colleges and universities at the same fee arrangement as legal residence of this state, while we charge more for out-of-state and foreign students. Our schools are already short of funds, and giving expanded benefits to illegals is not right.

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Legality and illegality have nothing to do with this, not at that level. I'd rather see them all legalized, myself. Those resisting legalization are resisting paying minimum wage. For people who come to this country, contribute so hugely to our economy, and take so little out of it, I have no problem with their use of educational and health facilities. Real legality would be preferable, of course, but it may be a pipe dream thanks not to "liberals" but to self-styled hard-working ranchers and small business owners who rely on experienced Mexican workers (particularly noticeable in work on the land -- they are way, way better and more knowledgeable about agricultural and other land work than their American counterparts, almost without exception).

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I'm inclined to agree with points made by both c.i. and tart and I think there should be more of an open door to those who want to work. In California, Cesar Chavez stood up for their rights and there's not enough of an effort to encourage them to become citizens instead of the periodic token expulsion. That is as transparant as Saran Wrap. We'll see what Ahnold will do in California regarding the "problem." Maybe he has some German immigrants earmarked to take over their jobs.

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Lightwizard wrote:

You have presented little or no evidence that the recession of 1987 - 1992 was not a severe economic downturn but merely a blip. Since you are unconvincing and underwhelming, the burden of proof is on you.

It would be hard for me to offer any evidence regarding said downturn since you insist on misrepresenting the period of time in question, but that's a separate issue. More importantly, I wrote nothing about the severity thereof, but rather pointed out that it ENDED WELL UNDER BUSH I. You not only want to rewrite history, but are trying to rewrite my argument to make it look like something you can win. Nice try, no chance. (Once more for the entrenched...) I wrote NOTHING regarding the severity of that economic downturn, I simply corrected your error regarding Clinton having anything to do with turning a boat that had already turned well before he took the helm.

"Applesauce." Cool

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Quote, your words:

We had a mild dip in the middle of Bush I...

That is the only statement I took umbrage with. Just what period is "the middle of Bush I? When was Black Monday again? Your characterization is an interpretation based on opinion with only more opinion offered by Mr. Goldberg andsuch a distinguished source. Not.

Not that I place much credence in economists as they can be 180 deg. on any one subject but the majority of economists won't agree with your analysis. I also don't believe politicians no matter how much power they wield can guide the economy up or can they be entirely blamed for it's illnesses. However, they can by their statements and by political wars in Washington put a damper on the economy by affecting the mood of the consumer and investor.

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(I said nothing about Clinton "turning it around" so I'd have to believe you are doing some flippant reading between the lines).

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More Disappointment for those who desperately seek bad news:

Quote:

10:00am 10/28/03
U.S. consumer confidence rebounds in Oct
By Greg Robb
WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) - The Conference Board's Consumer Confidence Index rose to 81.1 in October from a revised 77.0 in September. The increase in consumer confidence was larger than expected. The consensus forecast of Wall Street economists was for consumer confidence to rise to 79.1 in October. Consumer confidence in September had originally been estimated at 76.8. The present situation index increased to 66.8 from 59.7. This is the first increase after five straight monthly declines. The expectation of future economic conditions rose to 90.7 from 88.5 in September. "With the holiday season around the corner, this improvement in consumers' spirits is a good omen for upcoming retail sales," said Lynn Franco, director of The Conference Board's Consumer Research Center.

and The Hits Just Keep On Rollin'

Quote:

ECONOMIC REPORT

Durable good orders strengthen
Core capital goods orders up 3.9%, best since March

By Rex Nutting, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 11:00 AM ET Oct. 28, 2003

WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- U.S. businesses are finally spending money on capital goods, giving a big lift to the economic recovery.

Core capital goods orders rose 3.9 percent in September, the biggest jump since March, the Commerce Department reported Tuesday.

Core capital goods are the best monthly gauge of business investment, which has turned higher in the past two quarters after nearly three years in the doldrums.

Core orders are now up 13.5 percent in the past year, the best year-over-year gain since the summer of 2000 ...

Doesn't look good for The Democrats. They'd better hope something else goes badly; the economy sure isn't helping their cause.

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Thrilled about the economy!!!! Very Happy

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Lightwizard wrote:

Quote, your words:

We had a mild dip in the middle of Bush I...

Oops! MEA CULPA! I had searched my earlier comments, but did not go back far enough, and missed that. YOU WERE RIGHT; I did write that. SORRY. Embarrassed

Okay, so I did write that it was mild. That was my opinion, and not based on any real data. I could look some up now, and might find myself vindicated or prove myself wrong--and I will if you like--but that would be bootstrapping at this point. The fact is that I made the statement--as you claimed--and I really can't speak to how mild or severe it was without doing some research. (And I clearly pretended to that level of knowledge when I made the statement in question.)

Point: Lightwizard. Cool

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We're closer on this subject than you think, Scrat, and you should know by now that Democrat, Republican, Indendent, Schomacrat -- I don't have much use for polticians. It certainly wasn't mild where I was standing and I don't believe any politician has any control over our bush (excuse me, bust) and boom economy. It's built into a capitalistic system. I just wish they'd keep their mouths shut and just do their jobs because I, for one, have extreme difficulty believing anything they say.

Yes, Timber, there always is a light and the end of the tunnel in an economic turndown -- let's just hope one of the politician doesn't stick his big fat butt over the end of the tunnel.

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timberlandko wrote:

Doesn't look good for The Democrats. They'd better hope something else goes badly; the economy sure isn't helping their cause.

I was listening to NPR in the car yesterday and caught Daniel Shore (sp?) editorializing about current events. He finished up by asserting that it will be the situation in Iraq that will likely decide the election.

??? !!!

And I thought: TYPICAL.

When the President was riding high on war-related public opinion and the economy seemed stuck in the dumps, the Dems and their liberal pals in the media were telling us that the ECONOMY that was going to decide the election. Now that signs of economic recovery are becoming increasingly hard to ignore, it appears they are shifting gears again and seeking to tell Americans what should matter to them when election time rolls around.

The thing that's a bit scary here is that while the media can't hide signs of economic recovery from the people living in this economy, they can (and have shown themselves quite willing to) hide signs of improvement in Iraq from people here in the US. Which gives me pause to wonder whether we will soon see a wholesale shift with the entire liberal media elite simultaneously telling Americans that the only thing that matters is how things are in Iraq while they do their damnedest to paint the worst possible picture of conditions there.

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Politicians on all sides like to jump on the positive or negative bandwagon -- I've been following K Street on HBO (along with Sofia) and it's touching on some of that mentality in Washington. They all believe they are holding onto the pulse of the common citizen. I find them yanking something I would rather they leave their hands off.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Politicians on all sides like to jump on the positive or negative bandwagon -- I've been following K Street on HBO (along with Sofia) and it's touching on some of that mentality in Washington. They all believe they are holding onto the pulse of the common citizen. I find them yanking something I would rather they leave their hands off.

I've been avoiding K-Street, but plan to give it a look.

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If you don't start with episode one, you can be lost. It is really not taking any sides but revealing the machanics (or machinations!) of politics. I'm not that sure where it's headed but that would spoil the mystery. BTW, let me apologize for that little lapse of decorum -- I think if we'd all learn to stop trying to push buttons around here and get to the point, we'd be better off.

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LW wrote:

I think if we'd all learn to stop trying to push buttons around here and get to the point, we'd be better off.

By George, I think he's got it! Mr. Green

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timberlandko wrote:

LW wrote:
I think if we'd all learn to stop trying to push buttons around here and get to the point, we'd be better off.

By George, I think he's got it!

Ah, what the $#% do you know? :wink:

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