0
   

Oil at $87 and rising - still no alternative energy

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:11 pm
well you are more optimistic that i am

why?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:14 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
well you are more optimistic that i am

why?


Because people don't give up, that's why.

Innovation doesn't die. When oil becomes prohibitively expensive to burn, other technologies and lifestyles will spring up to replace it.

And we may go through some extremely tough times in the middle; but, that is really sort of the standard state of humanity. We've been living in a golden age fueled by cheap energy; it will not always be so, but it won't be the end of us either.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:23 pm
so when there is no food left for our machines we feed them dirt?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:25 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
so when there is no food left for our machines we feed them dirt?


No, we build better machines.

C'mon, gloomy gus. We have a never-ending source of energy radiating on the earth every day. Every year brings new and better ways for us to take advantage of it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:28 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
so when there is no food left for our machines we feed them dirt?


No, we build better machines.

C'mon, gloomy gus. We have a never-ending source of energy radiating on the earth every day. Every year brings new and better ways for us to take advantage of it.

Cycloptichorn
i think you are naively optimistic

just what fuel exactly will replace oil?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Oct, 2007 03:35 pm
Steve 41oo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
so when there is no food left for our machines we feed them dirt?


No, we build better machines.

C'mon, gloomy gus. We have a never-ending source of energy radiating on the earth every day. Every year brings new and better ways for us to take advantage of it.

Cycloptichorn
i think you are naively optimistic

just what fuel exactly will replace oil?


Well, oil has a lot of functions other then just being burned for gasoline - it will take some sort of bio-fuels to make the plastics and lubricants we need in the future.

As for replacing 'fuel,' right now Biodiesel burns cleaner and more efficiently; straight-up electric engines have the potential for far more energy output and far less waste then gasoline.

You are aware how inefficient the combustion engine is? If it wasn't for the fact that oil was literally laying around unused, it never would have surpassed other engines. Better solar and wind technology, better nuke technology, and we can tell oil to f*ck off.

Hell, if we got Fusion to work, then our problems would be pretty much solved on the energy front. Why so glum? There's lots of ways out of this mess.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 04:48 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Why so glum? There's lots of ways out of this mess.
Bio fuels take too much land. Fusion doesnt work. Renewables have nothing like the power density. Coal is awkward and dirty. There are not enough suitable sites for tidal and hydro electric schemes. Fission has unresolved problems associated with radioactive waste and terrorism. And thats just for starters. The main problem is we are addicted to oil. Our whole economy infrastructure and life style is geared up to using prodigious amounts of fossil fuel, and rather than face up to the bleak reality that oil is or has peaked, we just carry on and hope something will turn up. This country is a classic example. North Sea oil and gas in the UK sector was exploited so fast it jeopardised the ultimate yield. Now its depleting fast and we are desperately building new infrastructure to cope with imported LNG from such reliable suppliers as Algeria and Qatar. Or we are dependent on our good friends the Russians to pump gas all the way across Europe. (by passing countries like Belarus and Ukraine who dont pay their bills). UK government energy policy is to hope for a mild winter.

Of course we could always help our other friends the Americans to secure the remaining conventional oil reserves for ourselves in places like Iraq. But then we shouldnt be burning oil anyway because its screwing up the earth's climate.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 06:23 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
so when there is no food left for our machines we feed them dirt?


No, we build better machines.

C'mon, gloomy gus. We have a never-ending source of energy radiating on the earth every day. Every year brings new and better ways for us to take advantage of it.

Cycloptichorn
i think you are naively optimistic

just what fuel exactly will replace oil?


Well, oil has a lot of functions other then just being burned for gasoline - it will take some sort of bio-fuels to make the plastics and lubricants we need in the future.

As for replacing 'fuel,' right now Biodiesel burns cleaner and more efficiently; straight-up electric engines have the potential for far more energy output and far less waste then gasoline.

You are aware how inefficient the combustion engine is? If it wasn't for the fact that oil was literally laying around unused, it never would have surpassed other engines. Better solar and wind technology, better nuke technology, and we can tell oil to f*ck off.

Hell, if we got Fusion to work, then our problems would be pretty much solved on the energy front. Why so glum? There's lots of ways out of this mess.

Cycloptichorn


You state the obvious and we have been saying this since the mid seventies. Where has the US govt been in forcing Detroit to improve effeciency immediately?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 09:12 am
Steve, I agree that no solution is a magic bullet; all the problems are going to have to be worked on and a combination of several different sources of energy are going to have to be utilized to survive the post-oil era.

A few points -

Energy density in the form of better batteries is being worked on by a lot of people.

Biofuel techniques are becoming more and more refined. Two avenues which show promise - 1, using the tougher 'stalk' portion of many plants to create biofuels, something which wasn't previously possible; 2, engineering bacteria to **** out fuel. There's a company in California which is currently doing exactly this.

The technologies you describe have practically zero federal dollars spent on them. With some leadership with a vision we could change that, and see results from that change within a decade or two. It's better then the alternative - giving up.

Woiyo, I do seem to recall many Republicans arguing against raising the standards - almost as many as Democrats! Problem is that GM and Ford play such a large role in our economy (supposedly) that anything which punishes them is politically unpopular.

It does seem that many of them are working on it...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 09:26 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve, I agree that no solution is a magic bullet; all the problems are going to have to be worked on and a combination of several different sources of energy are going to have to be utilized to survive the post-oil era.

A few points -

Energy density in the form of better batteries is being worked on by a lot of people.

Biofuel techniques are becoming more and more refined. Two avenues which show promise - 1, using the tougher 'stalk' portion of many plants to create biofuels, something which wasn't previously possible; 2, engineering bacteria to **** out fuel. There's a company in California which is currently doing exactly this.

The technologies you describe have practically zero federal dollars spent on them. With some leadership with a vision we could change that, and see results from that change within a decade or two. It's better then the alternative - giving up.

Woiyo, I do seem to recall many Republicans arguing against raising the standards - almost as many as Democrats! Problem is that GM and Ford play such a large role in our economy (supposedly) that anything which punishes them is politically unpopular.

It does seem that many of them are working on it...

Cycloptichorn


What did FDR tell "detroit" in the early 1940's?

You have a patriotic duty. (paraphrase) Strarting Monday, you will be building tanks or else. What did Detroit do? Built Tanks.

All the Federal Govt has to do (besides grow balls) is say either your cars get 50 MPG or they will be taxed at 100% (Basicly the same thing FDR said).
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 09:31 am
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Steve, I agree that no solution is a magic bullet; all the problems are going to have to be worked on and a combination of several different sources of energy are going to have to be utilized to survive the post-oil era.

A few points -

Energy density in the form of better batteries is being worked on by a lot of people.

Biofuel techniques are becoming more and more refined. Two avenues which show promise - 1, using the tougher 'stalk' portion of many plants to create biofuels, something which wasn't previously possible; 2, engineering bacteria to **** out fuel. There's a company in California which is currently doing exactly this.

The technologies you describe have practically zero federal dollars spent on them. With some leadership with a vision we could change that, and see results from that change within a decade or two. It's better then the alternative - giving up.

Woiyo, I do seem to recall many Republicans arguing against raising the standards - almost as many as Democrats! Problem is that GM and Ford play such a large role in our economy (supposedly) that anything which punishes them is politically unpopular.

It does seem that many of them are working on it...

Cycloptichorn


What did FDR tell "detroit" in the early 1940's?

You have a patriotic duty. (paraphrase) Strarting Monday, you will be building tanks or else. What did Detroit do? Built Tanks.

All the Federal Govt has to do (besides grow balls) is say either your cars get 50 MPG or they will be taxed at 100% (Basicly the same thing FDR said).


Yes, but that would cut into profits. So the Republicans would never - ever - stop bitching about it today. Ever.

I have no idea why vital industries who make war equipment today, are being ran on a for-profit basis! If the war effort is truly a matter of national survival, where are the companies involved being asked to sacrifice? Nowhere, they are making record profits off of you and I!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 10:48 am
Of course it is always the Republicans. I can tell by all the noise the Democrats are making by them talking about doing this for the past 30 years. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 11:02 am
woiyo wrote:
Of course it is always the Republicans. I can tell by all the noise the Democrats are making by them talking about doing this for the past 30 years. Rolling Eyes


It isn't all the Republicans - but they are traditionally the 'big business' party, and there's little doubt that when complaints rise about regulations costing business too much money, they primarily come from the Right wing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 01:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Of course it is always the Republicans. I can tell by all the noise the Democrats are making by them talking about doing this for the past 30 years. Rolling Eyes


It isn't all the Republicans - but they are traditionally the 'big business' party, and there's little doubt that when complaints rise about regulations costing business too much money, they primarily come from the Right wing.

Cycloptichorn


Then it must be an anomaly that Charles Rangel proposed a DECREASE in Corp Tax rates.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 01:13 pm
woiyo wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
Of course it is always the Republicans. I can tell by all the noise the Democrats are making by them talking about doing this for the past 30 years. Rolling Eyes


It isn't all the Republicans - but they are traditionally the 'big business' party, and there's little doubt that when complaints rise about regulations costing business too much money, they primarily come from the Right wing.

Cycloptichorn


Then it must be an anomaly that Charles Rangel proposed a DECREASE in Corp Tax rates.


Gotta read his tax plan a little better - the decrease in tax rates is offset by closing many of the loopholes that corps. currently use to avoid paying taxes.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Oct, 2007 02:07 pm
Nationally, ExxonMobil is now blending nearly three quarters of a billion gallons of ethanol into their gasoline products on an annual basis...E10 (90% gasoline, 10% ethanol). Exxon and anyone else blending ethanol and gasoline for retail use can apply for 51 cents per gallon(of ethanol) back from the gov't.

I know BP does too...which means all the 'big oil' are. Big oil is doing this kicking and screaming...and in no way do they want E85 to become widely used.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2007 08:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


Note that the oil in ANWR never goes away; and that the need for oil will never diminish either. Therefore, the longer we leave it in the ground, the greater its' eventual value to America. Also, the longer we wait, the greater our ability to extract it without causing damage to the environment.

Think if it as a savings account Laughing

Cycloptichorn

It seems I recall you saying before that oil will become obsolete?

In any case, I agree with your above statement to a point, however, ANWR may be more crucial to us now than later. In 20 or 30 years when ANWR might be played out if predictions and estimates pan out, we hopefully will have perfected other alternatives. If we haven't perfected other alternatives by then, I think ANWR may be too little too late by then anyway. And the fact remains that even if we begin drilling tomorrow, it would be a number of years before production could come on stream and be ramped up. Nothing is proven there, as the estimates are only predictions of various reserves correlated with various probabilities. By the time Democrats finally give up on their silly prohibitions on developing this resource, and I believe they will finally see the handwriting on the wall, it could be too late.

And even if you wish to preserve the resource, it would make sense to do some drilling to better identify what may exist there, and then hold it as a petroleum reserve if that is what you want to convince your politicians to do.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Nov, 2007 05:44 pm
from MSNBC :

http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/ANWR/images/benson.gif
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Nov, 2007 06:29 pm
Many of these posts focus on what the government should be doing.

What about what individuals should be doing?

How many people here are in car pools or take mass transit? How many people have changed out their light bulbs to the new high efficiency compact fluorescent light bulbs?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Nov, 2007 07:40 pm
Quote:
How many people have changed out their light bulbs to the new high efficiency compact fluorescent light bulbs?


started on that many years ago when the "circlites" were quite expensive .
proper recycling is VERY important since the new bulbs contain MERCURY !
i'm afraid many will simple go into landfills .
hbg
0 Replies
 
 

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