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Oil at $87 and rising - still no alternative energy

 
 
Karlin
 
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2007 08:53 am
Oil at $87 and rising - still no alternative energy

I remember that we understood that as the price of oil went higher it was going to be balanced out against alternative energy becoming more affordable

The high price of oil was supposed to [hoped to] make alternative energy more attractive, and the markets would adjust with lowered demand for oil as alternatives come onstream. The emissions from fossil fuels would also slow, it was all going to balance out in the 'free market system'.

Electricity from coal is a different story I guess, but coal is heavily subsidized, as is natural gas-fired electrical production, and nuclear too. We could be running our cars on electricity instead of gasoline if the markets were actually "free" of interference from government regulation. And that elctricity could be from solar and wind and tidal etc... the technology is here now, it has been for awhile.

People are willing to pay almost any price for their tank of gasoline, whatever it is, we pay it - there is no 'alternative'. I guess the price of oil will keep on rising, as do EMISSIONS. No balancing at all.

But alternatives are possible - Calgary runs it's transit system on wind power. More replacments for diesel and gasoline like that might have kept the price of oil lower, and encouraged more wind and solar power, but regulations kept that from happening.

It turns out there that were LIMITS placed on the amount of alternative energy allowed, such as wind and solar, in regulations by governments... in Alberta, and Ontario, the two I know about now. These limits were recently removed in Alberta, and thats when we found about about them. That has kept non-fossil fuel transport from becoming popular and widespread.

What other blockages has government put on alternative energy? Probably lots - including regulations that make it nearly impossible and unaffordable to hook your solar panels into the grid. Killing the Electric car. Helping oil and gas with low royalties, and hefty subsidies for various fossil fuel production.

Gasoline refining and sales are rumoured to be the most profitable part of the energy industry. Importing foreign oil is a close 2nd, and may be 'bigger', just not having the high profits margins as gasoline sales. Importing oil trumps everything - the Alaskan senator said yesterday that "domestic oil production is being discouraged in favour of importing oil, since those importers make better money that way". Everything!! Global warming included.

Everything seems to be done by governments to help them do business, while those same governments get in the way of alternative energy. We might wonder why, if there is corruption and kickbacks and support for election campaigns and maybe personal rewards. Corruption is everywhere, why would we think it is not in the most profitable sectors of the economy, with $Billions and $Billions at stake every year.

So emissions continue to rise ; Many or most Canadians #1 issue is climate change ; Nothing is done to help clean energy come onstream - imagine if 20 years ago alternative energy had gotten the same support as hydrocarbon energy industry gets from government regulations!!! We might have had 20% or 50% of our energy coming from 'clean sources' now, which would be cheaper once the initial costs are paid off since it is "free" after that... unlike coal-fired electricity and gasoline which will allways have high input costs. We could have been driving electric cars, and getting the electricity to power them from solar and wind, but imported oil and gasoline sales were too important for somebody...

Go figure, who is government for again? Who killed the electric car? Who says we cannot meet Kyoto targets?
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2007 05:08 pm
$ 87 OIL
----------
one has to remember that U.S. $ 87 today , is a lot less in other currencies than it was just a few months ago !
that's not of any help to the american consumer , but the oil producers are pricing in the fall of the dollar .
had the dollar NOT dropped , oil would probably be in the range of $ 60 - 70 . should the dollar fall further , it'll increase the price of oil !

even more reason to bring more alternate/domestic energy products online imo .
hbg

see also :
BOONE PICKENS PREDICTS
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2007 05:22 pm
Whoever heard of a supplier charging less than an addict can bear.

Are you commies or what?
0 Replies
 
Halfback
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 07:11 am
In the Summer of '06, I read an article that stated the demand for oil had exceeded the supply (i.e. production and shipping) for the first time. The "cross over" figure was, I believe, 87 Million barrels per day.

Now, that kind of analysis is but a picture of a point in time, and changes as a function of time. What IS significant is that the world is reaching the supply/demand equalibrium range of figures. As oil is nothing more than another commodity, the price MUST go up as bidding for the available supply increases.

Since the demand for oil continues unabated, both here in the US and in Industrialized Nations AND in other "developing" Nations. I don't see the situation improving. Sad

We learned a lesson back in the 70's when OPEC "stuck it to us", but we did not learn the lessons taught for long. Embarrassed

Alternate energy sources, absolutely! But we have to start moving in a positive direction NOW!

Halfback
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 07:20 am
hamburger wrote:
$ 87 OIL
----------
one has to remember that U.S. $ 87 today , is a lot less in other currencies than it was just a few months ago !
that's not of any help to the american consumer , but the oil producers are pricing in the fall of the dollar .
had the dollar NOT dropped , oil would probably be in the range of $ 60 - 70 . should the dollar fall further , it'll increase the price of oil !

even more reason to bring more alternate/domestic energy products online imo .
hbg

see also :
BOONE PICKENS PREDICTS


Great point. I couldn't figure out why we're not paying $5.00 per gallon in the states with the barrel price so high.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 07:56 am
Since the 70's this Govt has been "dicking" around with this issue and has yet to do what needs to be done. Both parties cater to Corp. America in regard and refuse to force Detroit to make fuel efficient cars and refuse to force companies to find altenatives.
0 Replies
 
Halfback
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 12:28 pm
It is easy to blame "Corporate America"...... It must be noted, however, that there have been many models of rather fuel efficient cars brought out on the market over the last thirty years...... they DO NOT sell. Why? Because they are generally small, uncomfortable, and save weight by cutting creature comforts. You CAN'T have it both ways.

I suggest we blame ourselves.

Halfback
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 12:42 pm
Halfback wrote:
It must be noted, however, that there have been many models of rather fuel efficient cars brought out on the market over the last thirty years...... they DO NOT sell.


In the USA. Outside, it's exactly the other way around.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:04 pm
It will be an incremental phase in of other alternatives and a very gradual phase out of oil, if it ever phases out, and the rate and extent of this phasing will be determined by how alternatives prove out in terms of feasibility and cost. Also, as cost of oil rises, this increases the reserves of recoverable oil by making more expensive and hard to get oil reserves more economically viable. Fact is, oil is still the most practical energy source for many applications, and alternatives have yet to prove their viability and price competitiveness in a big way.

We see windmills popping up across the plains of America, and I think those will increase alot yet, but there is a limit to them providing the entire answer to the equation. Same with solar.

For anyone expecting a sudden and wholesale transformation, such was never a practical or realistic expectation.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:09 pm
Well, you should try wind turbines instead of windmills - they work here in Europe quite well (while windmills just work for/in museums).
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:14 pm
just checking government of canada "fuel consumption ratings 2007" .
rather interesting results :

CHEVY malibu and monte carlo - 3.5 liter / V 6 - automatic
- highway mileage 6.7 liter / 100 km

CHEVY OPTRA - 2 l / 4 - manual
- highway mileage 7.1 / 100 km !

VW RABBIT - 2.5 l / 4 - manual
- highway mileage 7.1 / 100 !

the chevy malibu and monte carlo are pretty fair sized cars with quite a bit of pep - certainly more than the optra or rabbit , yet they have a fairly respectable fuel consumption - at least by north-american standards .
imo the fuel consumption improvements have been pretty good in the last several years . of course , driving a big truck or SUV is going to cost plenty extra .

example :

CADILLAC ESCALADE AWD - 6.2 liter / V 8
- highway mileage 10.8 liter / 100 km

or for someone with a little :wink: spare cash
MERCEDES MC 63 AMG - 6.2 l / V 8
- highway mileage 13.9 l / 100 km

makes the caddy look like a fuel sipper , doesn't it ?
actually the mercedes cars - unless it's a diesel - are not very fuel efficient .
so buy a caddy :wink:
hbg
0 Replies
 
Halfback
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:25 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Halfback wrote:
It must be noted, however, that there have been many models of rather fuel efficient cars brought out on the market over the last thirty years...... they DO NOT sell.


In the USA. Outside, it's exactly the other way around.


I know that, from my travels, Walt. I cannot answer for my fellow citizens except to note that some of them seem a little slow on the uptake. :wink:

Halfback
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:28 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, you should try wind turbines instead of windmills - they work here in Europe quite well (while windmills just work for/in museums).



C'mon Walter. Cut okie a little slack. English is his first language.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:36 pm
halfback :

one reason for seeing more fuel-efficient cars in western europe may be the fairly stringent "car inspections" .
imo you won't see many cars on the roads older than perhaps 5 to 6 years ?

(walter : any idea what the average age of cars on german roads is ?)

our car is a 1999 olds intrigue - 3.5 / twincam V 6 - 205 hp .
i just had it in for a good service inspection and hope to get a few more years out of it - UNLESS the fuel prices rise steeply .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:47 pm
If I'm not totally wrong, hamburger, the average age of cars on german roads is 8 years.

(The reason is exactly that we've got those 'inspections' AND that modern cars are quite reliable = you only need to go to garage [changing oil etc] any 30,000 km/three years warrant ... .)
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:49 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
If I'm not totally wrong, hamburger, the average age of cars on german roads is 8 years.

(The reason is exactly that we've got those 'inspections' AND that modern cars are quite reliable = you only need to go to garage [changing oil etc] any 30,000 km/three years warrant ... .)


Whats's the average km put on a car in Germany in a year?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 02:09 pm
About 12,000 km/year (I'm doing 45,000km/year).
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 02:20 pm
walter wrote :

Quote:
If I'm not totally wrong, hamburger, the average age of cars on german roads is 8 years.


i'm sure you are not , walter !
one problem we have - certainly in ontario - , are old clunckers that have not been maintained properly and that are causing many times the pollution of a modern or older , well looked after car .
while we now have bi-annual mandatory emissions inspection , older cars (older than 20 years , i believe) are excepted !!! (and they are often the real polluters) .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 02:36 pm
I dont think we've hit peak oil (supply) yet, but its coming. Interesting that Putin said today quite bluntly that America invaded Iraq for oil. Its anyone's guess what the price of oil will be when world supply is (physically) unable to meet demand. I think we are heading for disaster. We are fossil fuel addicts, the stuff is running out, but whilst we can still get our fix we dont care about tomorrow. Why should we? Long term we are all dead anyway. Leave it for future generations to sort out our planetary debt, and to curse and swear at our memory.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2007 02:39 pm
http://i20.tinypic.com/v7b9rt.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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