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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 09:35 am
Timber

I'm not surprised the Turks are reluctant to allow in US troops if they are to find themselves fighting the same alongside the Kurds once they're across the border!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 09:56 am
Some thoughts on the alleged "Dirty Tricks" E-Mail, apart from the spelling differences, there are other discrediting items. Among these are references to "The Agency" ... not a term used in Intel circles. The CIA is referred to as "The Company", or sometimes "Langley", while the NSA is termed "The Fort", for its HQ at Ft. Meade.

Additionally, in any internal Intel/G2 communication, the terms and appelations are much more cryptic, and to initiates, disclose the level of authority of information and directives. For instance, within the CIA, there is the DO, or Directorate of Operations, which conducts intelligence gathering, and the DI, or Directorate of Intelligence, which conducts analysis.

The e-mail purports to be directed to analysists, who have little influence over the intelligence gathered for analysis. There is simply no point requesting analysts to step up intelligence gathering.

From a Stratfor bulletin yesterday:
Quote:
Now, there is absolutely no doubt that the CIA is engaged in espionage against U.N. Security Council member-states.That is what they are paid to do, and it would be expected that they are doing it. But the probability of this memo's authenticity requires that Frank Koza, the NSA official who allegedly issued it, not be U.S.-educated, not have his spell-check turned on and not know the difference between the directorates of operations and intelligence. That could be, but it is more likely that The Observer either created, purchased or was slipped a forged document. It would be fascinating if The Observer told its readers where this document came from. The newspaper can be assured that it would not be compromising operations in an intelligence agency -- at least not in an American intelligence agency.
Numerous press sources indicate they have been unable to determine the authenticity of the item, or even confirm the existence of its purported author, let alone his job function.

No mainstream press gives the story any credible play. I would surmise this gets filed on the same shelf as The Defecting Body Guard and the Three Mystery Ships.



timber
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:09 am
I don't follow you here, Steve. The Turks have had significant ground presence in Northern Iraq since shortly after The Gulf War, and have long maintained heavy presence along their border with Iraq, occasioned by concern for unrest among their own Kurdish population. If Turkey is not part of, and fully coordinated with the US Attack, there is almost certain possibility of Turkish units engaging Iraqi Kurd Units, which would then place the US in the very difficult position of using US force against Turkish units ... directly engaging the opposing forces of ostensible allies, something which engenders great diplomatic turmoil.

There doubtless will be turmoil and upheaval, including masive movement of refugees, in The North. Add in the Iranian wildcard (they to have troops on the border, and reportedly (reliably) in Northern Iraq as well. That area is effectively under no one's control at this jucture, and therefore promises uncontrolled development. There is horrifying prospect for civilian slaughter ... perhaps the greates potential for such in the entire theater, and all the moreso now with the apparent lessening of immediate US presence. The Turks have helped nothing, not even themselves.



timber
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:19 am
Steve, China by 2010? I don't think so. Can you back up your opinion? c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:22 am
One does wonder about what our manipulation of the Turkish stock market is adding to the black budget, Timber.

I just heard two pro forma (1 Conserv, 1 Lib) economic analysts discussing the Total Costs of War. Here's the outline:

$1B a day from the annual Pentagon budget ($355B).

$65B to $90B Pentagon estimates for up to ONLY six months of war war. This covers only troop deployment. Other projections kept under wraps.

$100B (so far) for assistance, bribes and a list of things I can't give you because I was listening while driving.

Among other things we need to be aware of is the evil twin possibility of a huge spike oil prices, offset by the good twin possibility of a drop in prices because we'll have access to much more Iraq oil. Then there's the predicted significant rise in interest rates which is going to decimate the finances of those with margin accounts and credit card debt -- among other things. Housing market affected...

Also heard this morning (and read last week in the NYTimes Book Review) a review of the new book on Karl Rove. Looks like a must read. Exciting revelations of dirty tricks and manipulation, etc. etc.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:23 am
HofT, Tokyo, heh? Is it still one of the most expensive cities in the world? <g> Planning on taking my wife for a second visit to Japan after she retires in a couple of years. c.i.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:28 am
Our manipulation of the Turkish stock market? Aw, come on! They had a chance to be on the winning side and blew it. They worked out a really swell bribe and blew that too. Who has to manipulate anything? Investors don't back losers.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:37 am
Now, roger, you know its all conspiracy ... of course "We" crashed the Turkish Stock Market. "We" will use the profits "We" just made selling short on Turkish Securities to cover the increased cost of the war Twisted Evil Laughing Twisted Evil


BTW ... there are indications some sort of "Comproimise Agreement" may be announced, though no confirmation yet ... just rumors, as far as I know. There have been rumors of a couple interesting developments regarding Iran and Jordan ... but again, just rumors. The pot is boiling. No telling what's gonna float to the top, or how long it will stay there.



timber
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 10:48 am
With the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in Pakistan, I wonder if Osama is close by? c.i.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:03 am
snood wrote:
Tres, I'd someone as studied as you are about semantic precision would not put words in another's mouth. No, I didn't say you were a "bad person" - I'd be insane to think I could glean enough just from this forum to know or judge same.

I said you were needlessly cynical in your responses for no obvious reason besides insult. It's my opinion, and I'm sure you don't share it. But ain't that what makes America great?

snood - I was commenting that HE--not you--thought it made me a bad guy. (You were being quite civil at that point.)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:09 am
A democratically elected parliament blocked U.S. troops from deploying in Turkey.

Perhaps, the US shouldn't bring democracy to other states.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:16 am
Walter, That is funny! Wink LOL c.i.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:28 am
Timber, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. With the Turkish parliament still in a dither as to whether to allow US troops to attack Iraq from Turkey, its not surprising they are ambivalent if, as you point out, US forces might end up fighting Turkish troops in N Iraq.

ci China 2010 was a wild guess on my behalf. But as Hot points out Richard Perle has written a paper advocating war with China, so perhaps I'm not too far off the mark.

btw Gulf war 2 (or 1b if you prefer) war kicked off yesterday with American and British aircraft attacking Iraqi surface to surface missile installations. Seems war by escalation rather than declaration is a neat way of circumventing all the legalistic embarrassment at the UN.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:37 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
btw Gulf war 2 (or 1b if you prefer) war kicked off yesterday with American and British aircraft attacking Iraqi surface to surface missile installations. Seems war by escalation rather than declaration is a neat way of circumventing all the legalistic embarrassment at the UN.

I have seen nothing to suggest that the US and UK care whether or not the UN is embarrassed in any of this. (And I prefer it that way.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 11:39 am
Quote:
Background / Turkish refusal won't stop U.S.
By Ze'ev Schiff, Haaretz Correspondent

If the Turkish parliament maintains its refusal to allow American troops in the country, the decision would present difficulties for the American war plan but wouldn't significantly affect the main front, which is expected to take place around Baghdad. However, continued Turkish refusal could ultimately make the Iraqi war longer and bloodier.

The dispute in Turkey over whether to allow American troops into the country in preparation for the anticipated war in Iraq is not over yet. Turkish military leaders, who support close military cooperation with the United States, haven't become involved with the political debate and have barely made their voices heard.

It seems likely that the new Turkish government - under the leadership of the Islamist Justice and Development Party - lacks experience in conducting detailed international negotiations with a world power. On the other hand, the process that took place in the Turkish parliament was conducted in a democratic fashion and was based on the position of the large portion of the Turkish public that opposes the war in Iraq. This opposition stems at least partly from the feeling that Turkey is being called on to join a "Christian coalition" in a war against a Muslim nation, and moreover, a nation whose ruler, Saddam Hussein, is considered dangerous.

Talks between Washington and Ankara have been going on for several weeks already. In the beginning, it seemed like a "Turkish bazaar": financial negotiations in which the Turks wanted to get most of the aid they requested from Washington in exchange for granting permission to allow about 62,000 troops and about 250 warplanes and several fighter helicopters on their territory. The military leaders' silence was considered, therefore, a tactical exercise meant to allow the diplomatic establishment to get as much money as it could. The West figured that at some point the government, and then the parliament, would approve the American request.

But as time passed, it became clear that Turkish agreement was not merely a matter of money. Turkey suspects that the sovereignty vacuum that already exists in northern Iraq would be completed with the existence of a diplomatic Kurdish entity. Turkey thinks that such an entity - even if it's not an independent Kurdish nation - would negatively influence the Kurdish minority in Turkey.

The Washington and London governments tried to calm Ankara by issuing a declaration that they completely support Iraq's sovereignty. But then there was also the problem of the Turkmenistan minority that lives mostly in an oil-rich city in northern Iraq and speaks Turkish. Ankara is concerned that the Kurds could harm the Turkmenistan minority under the cover of the Iraqi war.

Turkey also remembers the 1991 Gulf War, which seriously hurt its economic standing. That's why its leaders now want enough insurance to keep such a situation from repeating itself or want America to cover the damages. But in Ankara, and especially within the military, people understand that Turkey also faces serious danger if it maintains its refusal to allow troops on its territory.

Continued refusal will cause Turkey to suffer both direct and indirect financial damage. Turkey is also likely to lose a significant portion of its influence over what happens in the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq.

Washington has said that even if the Turks maintain their refusal, the Pentagon will find other ways to wage war in Iraq. Turkey, which borders Iraq, is geographically important, but not on the same level as Pakistan was in the American war against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. American forces can infiltrate Iraq from places other than Turkey, and experts predict that the main campaign will be conducted around Baghdad in any case.

On the other hand, if Turkish opposition to America's request leads the U.S. to call off a northern front attack that it intended to open from Turkey, Iraq will be able to deploy more forces to the Baghdad area. Such a process could lengthen the war and cause heavier losses. Haaretz article


Just want to add that a better analysis of Turkish mentality and Turkish politics would have avoided much anger and surprise.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 12:14 pm
This is just a link, but therefore more amusing than the above:

http://www.calendarlive.com/media/photo/2003-02/6781650.jpg


Article to be found here:
latimes.com : Adopt-a-dictator
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 12:15 pm
Walter says:

Quote:
A democratically elected parliament blocked U.S. troops from deploying in Turkey.

Perhaps, the US shouldn't bring democracy to other states.


Bush only considers it democatic when he controls all branches of government~
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 12:21 pm
BillW, Surely, there must be a name for "Bush only considers it democatic when he controls all branches of government~" - domestic and foreign. Wink_ c.i.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 12:25 pm
Quote:
Surely, there must be a name for "Bush only considers it democatic when he controls all branches of government~"

There is: RHETORIC.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2003 12:29 pm
rhet·o·ric (rĕt'ər-ĭk)
n.

The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
A treatise or book discussing this art.
Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.

rhētoricē, rhētorica, from Greek rhētorikē (tekhnē), rhetorical (art), feminine of rhētorikos, rhetorical, from rhētōr, rhetor. See rhetor.]
rhetoric
noun

The art of public speaking : declamation, elocution, oratory.


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