The US, The UN and Iraq

Walter,

I doubt that anyone is completely oblivious to the opinions of others in these matters. The problem comes in when one considers just what might be the central tendency of 'world opinion'. The combined populations of the European nations whose governments support our position is about equal to that of France & Germany. Certainly there is much opposition in the isslamic world, but even there there is no unanimity. Indeed there are many who take one position in public and another in private.

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C.I.

Regarding Turkish troops deployed in northern Iraq----in that unlikely event I predict they will be confronted with Abrams tanks---the same tanks that we paid a high ransom to use Turkish bases. At the same time we paid the ransom----the Turks were warned not to place any boots on Iraq territory. (I hope)

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Btw how is the pipeline construction from Turkmenistan to Herat and Kandahar going? We've not heard much about this recently. Is it true that European troops are mainly deployed in Kabul for "nation building" and American troops are mainly deployed in Kandahar for safeguarding pipeline building?

Nice questions, Steve. And they are just that - questions. Much akin to the old "Is Rickey Martin Gay" question. It plants some suggestion, without accepting responsiblity for a statement.

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georgeob1 wrote:

The combined populations of the European nations whose governments support our position is about equal to that of France & Germany.

Which easily doubles the number of persons -"public opinion" - who are against the war.

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Walter, At least one dozen heh? LOL c.i.

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And, as well doubles the number who support it. Are you suggesting that the European government s that support us are doing so in defiance of their public opinion, while those which oppose us are notz? If so, where are your facts?

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perception wrote:

the Turks were warned not to place any boots on Iraq territory. (I hope)

Since some years, about 20,000 troops are stationed in North Iraq, so who warned them when?

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Walter

Our motives (US) are always in question-----would it be logical to question the motives of others outside the US?

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perception

What else is being done?

George

Well, at least they acting against the public opinion of their citizens.

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Walter

I was not aware of any Turkish troops actually stationed in northern Iraq. Can you provide proof?

We have every reason(mostly for stability) to want to maintain the territorial integrity of Iraq. I have every confidence the administration will adher to that.

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Walter

"What else is being done"?

Walter --- the inference in the statement that "World opinion is against us is that "the motives of world opinion are purely honorable and rational while the motives of the US are purely "dishonorable and flawed".

Thus my question---"would it be logical to question the motives of those outside the US" For example the sale of most of Iraq's war making capability by Germany and France and Russia's lucrative oil deals. Those actions are purely honorable and without self interest?????????

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Quote:

Kurdish leader wants Turkish troops out of Iraq
ANKARA, Oct 18 (Reuters) - An Iraqi Kurdish leader said on Friday he wanted Turkey to withdraw its troops from northern Iraq, underscoring the tense relations between two potentially crucial players in any U.S. attack on Baghdad.

NATO ally Turkey maintains a military presence in neighbouring Iraq's northern Kurdish enclave to pursue separatists from its own Kurdish minority.

Ankara has threatened to intervene if Iraqi Kurds use a possible U.S. strike on Baghdad to push for independence, a move that could stir trouble among Turkish Kurds.

This was the first time that Kurdistan Democratic Party leader Massoud Barzani has said he wanted to see an end to Turkey's military presence.

"They are here for their own duties, and when that is over we are going to sit down and raise this issue with the Turkish authorities. We want these troops to return home," Barzani said in a live interview with news channel CNN Turk.

Barzani's party and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, which jointly administer the Kurdish enclave in Iraq, deny having any plans to push for statehood, saying they only want autonomy within a united Iraq.

But relations with Ankara remain fraught with tension.

Turkish air bases and Iraqi Kurdish "peshmerga" fighters could both play vital roles in any U.S. offensive to topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, whom Washington accuses of developing weapons of mass destruction.

Turkey has around 1,000 soldiers in northern Iraq and officials say they also help protect a small Turkmen minority, with whom Turks share ethnic and linguistic ties, from attacks by Kurds or Arabs.

But their main target is the Kurdistan Workers Party, which waged a 17-year war for a Kurdish homeland in southeastern Turkey.

More than 30,000 people died in the fighting which largely died down after Turkey captured rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan in 1999. The rebels mostly withdrew to Iraq and Iran.

This is from October last year. In 1999, there have been estimated 10,000 troops there.(That's not relevant now.)

I've read the number "20,000" somewhere this weekend - I'll try to find the source.

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perception

Economics isn't my deal. I just know that we get/got 3% of our oil from Iraq, that we have had traditionally a really good trade with them.

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Walter

Thank you for the reference and the admission that your figure of 20,000 is perhaps wrong.

I still maintain that we must and will insist that the territorial integrity of Iraq remain intact-----anything else would doom this action of war to the trash heap before it starts----I can assure you General Franks will not allow this to happen. He is about to embark on "mission NEARLY impossible" once the firing stops. He will surely resign before he allows Turkey to occupy one inch of Iraq. He has already been faced with great difficulties due to the greed of the Turks----he will not allow any further hindrance on their part or Sec Def Rumsfeld will be required to find a replacement. IMHO

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Report from listening to the radio in the car just now -- local conservative (Neal Bork, Bill O-Reilly station):

1. A man with a deep voice, sounded as though he was in his forties or fifties, pleaded the antiwar case with such eloquence and intelligence that I arrived at the PO wiping tears off my cheek. He was well informed and had his ducks in a nice, clean row. He turned out to be 25. There's hope for us, folks.

2. On Saturday there was a very well advertised demonstration in front of the Alamo in San Antonio in support of Bush and war. San Antonio is a hugely military and conservative city. It was a bee-ootiful spring day. 150 people turned up, half of what turned up at the rural demo I attended in an area with a population of maybe 15,000.

3. News broadcasts talk of State Department reports today that Bush's reputation overseas has sunk to an all-time low with most believing that he is more dangerous than Saddam.

Every time Bush childishly speaks of the UN making itself "irrelevant" by opposing him, I want to express how much I hope Bush becomes as irrelevant as his daddy... and just as FAST! Or faster, if possible!

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Tartar wrote:

"On Saturday there was a very well advertised demonstration in front of the Alamo in San Antonio in support of Bush and war. San Antonio is a hugely military and conservative city. It was a bee-ootiful spring day. 150 people turned up, half of what turned up at the rural demo I attended in an area with a population of maybe 15,000".

Now I know which border you're near----down there doing your part to prevent al Queda from coming across no doubt.

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Quote:

Every time Bush childishly speaks of the UN making itself "irrelevant" by opposing him...

A point of clarification: Bush's argument is that the UN will make itself irrelevant if they do nothing to enforce their own resolutions with regard to Iraq.

You have to remember that the UN resolution that came out of the Gulf War cease fire did not obligate Saddam to allow inspections, it obligated him to disarm. Inspections are intended to verify that he is actively disarming. Does anyone, anywhere think that Saddam is doing so?

Now, if he isn't, and the UN does nothing, then with or without Bush acknowledging the fact, doesn't the UN show itself to be irrelevant?

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No, I think he means he wants the UN to become irrelevant. I think that's part of his policy. When he came into office, he brought with him (or they brought him!!) a large group of unilateralists who've been standing in the wings and grumbling for years. I really do think his (their) approach to the UN in this "crisis" contained the seeds of what they hoped would be the destruction of the UN. It's pretty interesting watching other countries trying to backstop the US in this nasty process without being confrontational about it. Bush is the confrontationalist.

BTW, how much of our UN dues did we pay over the years since 1980?

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I also see Turkey's interest in being in northern Iraq as a potential cesspool of trouble. While I haven't heard reference to that as being part of the recently put forth "mutual assistance package", I do hope that cool heads in Turkey's majority party prevail, and that that particular issue is not allowed to rise in parliamentary discussions tomorrow.

Surely, it would have to be seen as a deal-breaker. But let's see how much can be offloaded from the ships between now and tomorrow.

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Tartarin wrote:

No, I think he means he wants the UN to become irrelevant. I think that's part of his policy.

If that were true, would he not simply ignore them rather than trying to work with them?

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The US, The UN and Iraq

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