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The US, The UN and Iraq

 
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 06:19 am
Timber and Walter - the northern Iraq Kurdish autonomous region has already announced it will resist invasion by Turkish troops (sorry no link, am writing from an airport). Hope a brief parenthesis is OK to insert a story I heard years ago from Mrs. Barbara Bush:

Danielle Mitterand, escorting her husband on official visit in Washington at the time, and Barbara Bush had just left the French Embassy after a copious lunch with liberal servings of the best wines and were being driven to some charity event taking place that afternoon. Mrs. Bush started nodding off while Mrs. Mitterand talked incessantly about her activities to defend Kurdish populations against Turkish atrocities; waking up suddenly from a short nap, and hearing that Mrs. Mitterand was still on the subject of the Turks and the Kurds, Mrs. Bush suddenly said: "Tell me more about those Turds."

In telling the story Mrs. Bush adds she's grateful that Danielle's English was not idiomatic <G>
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 07:35 am
Thanks for the citation and quote, Tartarin. If the Russian 'take' on the event is correct, it sure sounds like Iraq is willing to cut off its nose to spite the Russians face.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 07:47 am
Ah, timber.....that would make more sense, if it were just one deal out of many with Russian oil companies. But still......one would think it would be just prudent for the Iraqis to do everything in its power to avoid even the hint of anything unfavorable to their relationship. Something isn't quite right here.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 08:32 am
Asherman
Quote:
is justified in seeking to protect itself against a madman on her borders.
You were speaking of Iran of course, but it's a good point and applies with we Canadians as well.

You continue to speak as if present Iraq is the same threat as it was before the Gulf War. That's not anywhere close to being an accurate reflection of reality, even before the inspection routine recommenced. Perhaps you hope it serves some rhetorical purpose but it is so obviously exaggerated that its inclusion does consistent damage to your arguments. It's the sort of mental shortcut that dogma always evidences. You ought to know better than to make moves like that.

Regarding Israel...as a favored client state of the US, there's really little she can do wrong. Unless she were to lose her favored client status of course, like Sadaam. That's unlikely, given she is a proxy for US hegemony in the coincidentally oil-rich middle east (and because of a certain reality about votes back home) and therefore she can do all the nasty things she is doing (say, like ignoring UN resolutions) but they aren't nasty.

But let's imagine this possibility...the US goes in and takes control of Iraq, which of course, is what will happen (freeing the downtrodden Iraquis as rationale for much of anything the US administration is doing is laughable, though it is clearly a moral and honorable desire on the part of citizens here in the West). Then the (unlikely) stabilization of Iraq follows. But along with that, Egypt and Saudi Arabia begin to teeter as Muslim anger builds. Terrorist attacks mount and administration officials conclude that it's that pesky Palestinian problem at core. By now, of course, that whole issue has gone quite ignored as the press goes yippee for the razzle dazzle weapons of war and otherwise fills their news content with puppies trapped on ice flows and press releases from the White House pretending to be commentary, and Palestine is now an Israeli sub-division.

Israel is a client state because it effectively serves as one in an important area. That it is democratic is not terribly relevant, as evidenced by all the murderous authoritarian regimes the US has and does support. Of course, this part is the stretch, but if Iraq were to become a point of stability for the US in the middle east, Israel's function and importance would change. And if she were perceived (re the Palestinian problem) as causal, then suddenly administration officials would start to talk about those UN resolutios, about the maltreatment and murder of downtrodden Palestinian peoples.

Humbug.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 09:07 am
Blatham

Re: Your well written scenario in response to Asherman----your cynicism has reached a new level. Just like a well trained athlete, you've raised your game a notch. Congratulations.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 09:36 am
deep waist-bending, arm-sweeping bow
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 09:45 am
Noting that one man's realism is cynicism only in the eyes of the deluded, I join in congratulating Blatham for laying it on the line. I don't know any in the world, even among our coalition of the willies, who don't have misgivings about the aftermath of invasion. Even after living overseas for a long, long time and counting among my friends many who love the US can I say I actually know of anyone who believes our defense of Israel has anything to do with democracy. I wish we could get beyond Rush-speak and jingo bells and all the rest.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 09:54 am
PDiddie wrote:
If you oppose war, you support Saddam Hussein.

Are our WW2 veterans "supporters" of Stalin's regime, just because the USSR was an Allied Power?

Yes, at the time during which they were fighting alongside Soviet troops. And in much the same way as anti-war protesters are supporting Saddam, that support was not intended but was no less real. (How could someone fight alongside Stalin's people and not be "supporting" Stalin?)

PDiddie wrote:
Obstructing this war is appeasement, just like with Hitler.

Europe's "appeasement" wasn't not attacking Hitler, it was giving in to his demands (like annexing the Sudenland) in the hope Hitler wouldn't attack them. Who in this situation is making the demands? Who is asking the world "give in or else"? America.

And they allowed the annexation by doing what? BY NOT ATTACKING HIM. And since you ask, Saddam is the one making demands, he's demanding that we inspect rather than showing us that he is disarming.

PDiddie wrote:
Real Americans would support our President.
STRAW MAN. Only you have written this. Nice try, won't fly. Razz
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 10:01 am
deleted
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 10:02 am
Perception

You can't help being cynical when thinking about the underlying reasons for this war. I just don't believe its about liberating the Iraqi people. You have to distinguish between real motives for war and the excuses employed to justify what will be in fact a pre-emptive illegal and immoral attack on a country that poses no threat to the US or Britain.

Apparantly there are bumper stickers around saying "Kick his ass and get the gas!" At least that's honest.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 10:26 am
Blatham

Please discontinue the deep bowing-----I must take back everything I said because I'm ------"DELUDED". Sorry, but you must remain a mere mortal.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 10:38 am
Tartar the terrible wrote:

"wish we could get beyond Rush-speak and jingo bells and all the rest".

When you can "get inside the head" of thugs like Saddam and prove to me and the world that you can make these thugs "lie down with the lambs in peace" by any means other than force, then I will listen with rapt attention. Until such time as I see evidence of your omnipotence I will continue to question your sanity.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:00 am
Steve

I know that I am deluded but would you accept there are multiple reasons besides-"Get the Gas".

I won't bore you and all the participants by listing them again because Timber, George and Asherman and Tres have listed them at least 40 zillion times just on this thread. Oops sorry I overstated my position just a tad.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:09 am
The obvious U.S. motivation for the Iraqi confrontation, and the stated motivation of our government, is to enforce the agreement which ended the hostilities in 1992, following Iraq's unprovoked invasion of Kuwait.

This agreement commits Iraq to divest itself of all WMD and long-range missiles. It is this agreement that makes the possession of nuclear weapons by Iraq different from their posession by all the other countries noted in earlier posts on this thread. Iraq has already agreed to rid itself of such weapons as a condition of the cessation of hostilities following the 1991 war. The clear alternative to Iraqi compliance is a resumption of those hostilities.

If agreements or contracts on important matters are not enforced than all other agreements involving the signatories are threatened, and the credibility and capability of signatory institutions is seriously lessened. This is what destroyed the League of Nations, and this possibility confronts the United Nations now.

While it may be comforting to those who oppose the U.S. policy to note the apparent contradiction in (say) Pakistani nuclear weapons, or to throw out other potential motivations for U.S. actions, including various conspiracy theories, it merely distracts the debate from the fundamental issue. Even if some elements of these various theories are true, the fact remains that this stated motivation is sufficient and necessary cause for the U.S. actions.

Calling the leaders of the U.S. government madmen may be entertaining to some, but it adds nothing to to the substance and intellectual value of this discussion.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:12 am
Screwed up, see full post below.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:20 am
Perception

Yes of course I accept there are multiple reasons for invading Iraq, just as there were for getting rid of the Taliban. But liberating Afghani women from their burkhas was pretty low down the list. Btw how is the pipeline construction from Turkmenistan to Herat and Kandahar going? We've not heard much about this recently. Is it true that European troops are mainly deployed in Kabul for "nation building" and American troops are mainly deployed in Kandahar for safeguarding pipeline building?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:28 am
Here's some food for thought; two articles in today's San Jose Mercury News. Article one: "Kurds vow to attack Turkish troops." In other words, the US-Turkey agreement to let Turkish troops into Northern Iraq has a problem or two. Articel two: "Many see Bush as villain, U.S. embassies report." "The messages from US embassies around the globe have become urgent and disturbing: Many people in the world increasingly think President Bush is a greater threat to world peace than Iraqi President Saddam Hussein." I personally think world opinion counts. c.i.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:31 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I personally think world opinion counts. c.i.


Meanwhile, I know about nearly one dozen US-Americans with your opinion, c.i.! :wink:
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:35 am
Steve

"Is it true that European troops are mainly deployed in Kabul for "nation building" and American troops are mainly deployed in Kandahar for safeguarding pipeline building"?

In my telecon with Sec Def Rumsfeld yesterday, I forgot to ask about that---sorry.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Feb, 2003 11:36 am
georgeob1 wrote:
The obvious U.S. motivation for the Iraqi confrontation, and the stated motivation of our government, is to enforce the agreement which ended the hostilities in 1992, following Iraq's unprovoked invasion of Kuwait.

This agreement commits Iraq to divest itself of all WMD and long-range missiles. It is this agreement that makes the possession of nuclear weapons by Iraq different from their posession by all the other countries noted in earlier posts on this thread. Iraq has already agreed to rid itself of such weapons as a condition of the cessation of hostilities following the 1991 war. The clear alternative to Iraqi compliance is a resumption of those hostilities. (Emphasis added by Setanta.)


It is not necessarily obvious that the motivation of the Bush administration is the enforcement of an agreement which has here been very conveniently characterized without reference to the actual text of the Security Council resolutions in question--and the resolutions in question date from 1991, not 1992. If it were so obvious that the Administration's agenda from the outset has been the enforcement of the relevant resolutions, then one must ask why the issue had not been mentioned in the history of this administraiton until late in 2002. Security Council Resolutionl 686, March, 1991, is the operative resolution. It refers to Chapter VII of the United Nations charter, which does mean that military force may be used, should the Security Council so determine. This resolution, however, and resolutions 687 and 688, in no part, require or authorize the use of force to divest Iraq of weapons of mass destruction. This statement is a masterpiece of disingenuous discursus, in that it ignores the constant refrain in this thread that the United Nations is irrelevant, and that the United States is justified in such a war without United Nations authorization, for purposes of protecting its own security. I have emphasized a portion of the above quote, because it is only clear to those who have already determined that the United States must invade Iraq, that the putative failure of their compliance with resolution 1441 requires such an invasion.

A text of the United Nations charter may be found here:

http://www.un.org/Overview/Charter/chapter7.html

A text of Security Council Resolution 686 may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0686.htm

A text of Security Council Resolution 1441 may be found here (in PDF format, which may be difficult of access to some wishing to view these pages):

http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/682/26/PDF/N0268226.pdf?OpenElement

The relevant text of Resolution 1441 is given below, and it cleary shows that the Security Councils intention at the time of the adoption of that resolution was to receive the reports of the inspectors before deciding on further action:

Quote:
10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director-General
of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance
with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.
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