"What is truth?" (John 18:38)

Bob is great. I am sorry he is not here to clarify and give you hell.


I have heard it said that faith is something we all have. It is an internal makeup. We all have faith in something. It just depends on our rigging as to how that faith presents itself. I suppose it also has to do with life experience as to whether that faith grows or falters....

Wouldn't truth be the same? My truth is not the same as others. I could argue them until I am blue in the face and it doesn't change a thing. Truth is not an absolute. Or is it?

Has this already been touched upon? I need to go back and re-read everything. Just musing this morning....

It's true. We all perceive things differently. My wife doesn't like chocolate. She and I both like motor trips and haven't flown in years. Her sister's husband is a pilot. They fly everywhere. We act on these perceptions as they are true for us.

But, when it comes to the creator:
If he exists and has endowed us with the traits of love, justice, and wisdom, it can only follow that he would provide us with some instruction as to his purpose for our existence. This is the truth I believe Jesus referred to in the OP.

Yes - I agree. But - others have all kinds of reasons for shooting holes in those truths. Their faith lies elsewhere.

To me - this is a discussion that never ends. No matter how many times it is revisited it still comes down to the fact that there will always be factions. There is nothing new under the sun. All is vain.

But it is not vain to seek the truth if we heed Jesus words at John 8:32 " . . . the truth will set YOU free".

I was kidding. Kind of riffing off Ecclesiastes.

Wonderful truth there. And freedom.

Noted

TRUTH (WILL YOU KNOW?)

John 8:32
32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
John 7:1-5
1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him.
2 Now the Jews' Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
3 His brothers therefore said to Him, "Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing.
4 "For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world."
5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.
John 7:7
7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
John 15:20
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
John 15:18-19
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1 Cor 1:18
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Luke 10:16
16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
I Jn 2:15
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 Tim 1:5
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
II Th 2:10-12
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
(2 Pet 3:15-16
15 and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Rom 1:18-19
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
John 15:26
26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
I Jn 4:6
6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
(NKJ)
xxx Truth is suppose to be a reality. But through twisting and manipulating the truth about life, it has been turned into something else. In our minds we deal with thoughts. According to the bible we have a guardian angel that gives us thoughts, we have the devil that gives us thoughts, and if we can be born again we can have the Holy Spirit that quotes verses to us in our minds. So when we think, do we know which of our thoughts are truth. According to the bible the only truth that we should have is the verses. The Holy Spirit(verses) is the only guaranteed truth from God. And even if we get a verse we still have to deal with all the carnal thoughts surrounding the verse. So even though we get verses we need the gift of discernment. Our emotions(unclean spirits) always agree with the devil. Our affections always agree with our guardian angel. But only the Holy Spirit can separate them. There is alot of hereticks out there that think they can speak the truth about God without quoting the verses. They are delusional and deceived.


I Jn 1:5-6
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
(NKJ)

WITHHOLDING THE TRUTH

Matt 25:14-15
14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 "And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
(NKJ)

Matt 25:24-28
24 "Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 'And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26 "But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 'Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
(NKJ)

THE SPIRIT IS TRUTH
I Jn 5:6
6 This is He who came by water and blood-- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 16:7-14
7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
2 Cor 5:5-11
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
(NKJ)

xxxThe only guaranteed truth from God comes through the Holy Spirit and He only quotes verses. If your looking for truth any other way you are deceived.

John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
(NKJ)

John 17:17-20
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
(NKJ)

I Jn 1:5-6
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
(NKJ)

WITHHOLDING THE TRUTH

Eph 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NKJ)

Matt 25:14-15
14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
15 "And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
(NKJ)

Matt 25:24-28
24 "Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.
25 'And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
26 "But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
27 'So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
28 'Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
(NKJ)

Tell us:
Which translation does the spirit quote from?

Now I finally get it. You just copy and paste these same things over and over. You don't even take the time to correct your spelling and grammar, much less your line of reasoning.

Well I don't know about you. But for me He quotes from the KJV and the NKJV.

Does he italicize the word 'unknown' in 1 Corinthians 14:2?

1 Cor 14:2
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
(NKJ)

The verse and your questions don't mix. Your talking in the milk gifts, and I'm talking in the meat gifts.

Did you bother to look up the verse in the KJV?

Titus 3:9
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
(KJV)

A discussion of the inclusion of the italicized unknown in the above mentioned verse is far from foolish, my friend. For it underscores the bias of the translators and subjects the entire undertaking to be read with a particular caution which you have abandoned.

More of that intellectual excuses. Look the Holy Spirit ONLY quotes Gods Word. So if He quotes the whole verse to me it is Gods Word. And He quoted the whole verse.

You can't abide by the fact that the KJV is doctrinally biased.
You would prefer to persist in your error.

And not the least of your errors is your belief in the trinity.

You just throw stuff out there whether there is any truth in it or not.
This is what I believe about the trinity.
TRINITY EVIDENCE FALSE
Everything that the trinitarians claims makes Jesus God. Are the same things we can do also. And it doesnt make us God. Trinitarians have tried to form a belief on circumstantial verses, not factual verses. And they base their belief on principles that are not even in the Word of God. A Believer bases all their beliefs on what is written, not on what is not written.

Matt 20:22-23
22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."

Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)


Circumstantial Verses
Circumstantial verses are verses that can be used either way. As in this one,(My Lord and my God) The word and can be used to separate Lord and God, it can also be used to bring them together as one. Now as John was addressing Jesus at this point John knew and believed that God was also in Jesus. So in his attempt to address them both he was addressing "My Lord Jesus Christ, and also my God the Father that dwells in You.

John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
Factual Verses
In the factual verses, they can only be taken one way, with no variations. So the carnal mind has to pervert the factual verses in order to believe the circumstantial verses. The factual verses explain the circumstantial verses. As in this one, "One God the Father". The Father is the one God. But if you read one you see there is also one Lord Jesus Christ, which explains why John said it the way he did.

John 17:1-3

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)


THE DIVINITY(DEITY) OF CHRIST
We can have the same divine nature that Jesus had. God working through us.

Acts 17:29-30
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(NKJ)
2 Pet 1:4
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED (WE CAN AND WILL BE WORSHIPPED)
Rev 3:9
9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie-- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

THREE IN ONE GOD, ONE GOD IN THREE
Everything that separates trinitarians from Christians comes from out side of the scriptures. Trintiy, deity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


The apostles even said. Yet for us there is one God the Father.
Christians believe there is one God the Father.
Trinitarians always start with questions, this is how they deceive.
2 Tim 2:23
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(NKJ)
THE 'ARE ONE' DELUSION
WE ARE ONE WITH CHRIST AND GOD AND HOLY SPIRIT
IF JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE OF THE ONENESS-THEN WE ARE GOD. NOT SO!
John 10:30
30 "I and My Father are one."
(NKJ)
John 17:22
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
I Jn 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Cor 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
1 Cor 3:7-11
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
John 17:20-23
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 10:29-30
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 6:17
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Matt 10:32-33
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 11:1
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 Cor 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Phil 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
2 Cor 4:13-14
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
(NKJ)
xxOneness is all about agreement. John 17-22 Jesus prayed that we may be one the same way that Jesus and God are one. Jesus submitted to every Word of God that shows His agreement. We are to submit to every Word of God to show our agreement.
Jesus prayed John 17-22 that we "are one" with Jesus and God the Father. And that doesnt make us God any more than it made Jesus God to be one with God.

THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

Only People Who Worship In The Flesh Believe Jesus Is God
On Ro 9
Paul is talking about having great sorrow and grief over those who worship in the flesh.According to the flesh he could even wish he were cut off from Christ. Because those who worship in the flesh believe that Christ came and that Christ is the eternally blessed God.But as Paul says they are not all Israel who are from Israel nor are they children of Abraham seed. Those who worship in the flesh and believe this are not children of God.
Rom 9:1-8
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.


xxx The only trinity in the Word of God is the dragon, devil,satan.

Rev 12:9
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(NKJ)

Sorry
I confused you with Patches
http://able2know.org/topic/255975-21

(You have to scroll down a few posts to see it.)

Yet you consider the spirit to be a person