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New roll-out (propaganda campaign) for war with Iran?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Oct, 2007 04:55 pm
I got into "Gold" four years ago c.i.

I don't fancy all this technical jargon.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 08:15 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Thanks for the New Yorker article Bernie.

What struck me was the European assessment that Gordon Brown is most supportive of an American strike.

He's a clever cookie. The Labour party are surging ahead in the polls in large measure because Brown is not Blair and seen as standing up to Bush (a bit). But its a false image. Brown is every bit as keen to support the US as Blair was. Given this fundamental understanding, Brown can allow one or two critical voices of US policy to surface, knowing Bush wont be too worried, whilst giving every appearance of putting distance between London and Washington for UK domestic consumption.

Also whats not talked about here much is the humilliating defeat of the Royal Navy by a few Revolutionary Guards in rubber boats. The Marine equivalent of the SAS is now officially the SASSS. (Surrender Apologise Sell Story to Sun)

Hi steve

My pleasure. I really don't have a good reading on Brown yet. I haven't been attending to the Brit press as much as I did a few years back. And it seems like the fellow prefers to stand back in the shadows a bit. Hersch's claim surprised me. I would have thought that Brown would, for electoral reasons if nothing more moral, stay as disconnected from Bush warmongering as possible. On the other hand, I'm sure Brown and the rest of the folks around Blair have come to appreciate just how much deceit can be achieved presently. And, of course, there's the Dewey's perceptive "Politics is the shadow cast by business." (I'm trying now to get a better understanding of European and American corporate operations in Myanmar...it doesn't look very pretty so far).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:00 am
george wrote:
Quote:
Blatham,

I did read Hersh's article.
I figured you probably would but thought my encouragement might give an extra push.

Quote:
Interesting, gossipy report of the often disjoint impressions of the author's sources,
"Gossipy"? Like those gossipy, undependable reports on and photograhs from Abu Graib that Hersch's gossipy, undependable sources passed on to him earlier?

I loved Perino's reponse to questions on this piece..."Hersch's anonymous sources." Not just because nothing else is really possible for this sort of investigative reporting but even moreso because of the White House's constant 'leaks' to the press noted as "an anonymous WH source." I mean, how many of those do we see every day?

Quote:
all set in the context of a postulated insane U.S. regime bent on yet another mindless attack regardless of the consequences. The problem, of course, is that, even though this assumption is taken as revealed truth by Hersh,
Excuse me? Please quote the sentences from Hersch or anyone else he quotes in this piece which use even the weakest synonym of "insane". I've just re-read the piece top to bottom and there is nothing like what you charge there, neither explicitly nor implicitly. Please do provide substantiation, george.

Quote:
you and many of the chattering class,
As contrasted with 'george and many of the gladsome gulled group'? You've tossed in a meaningless cliche and I'm going to fail your paper unless you resubmit and attach an explanation of how you've just violated a key element of "Politics and the English Language".

Quote:
it is not neecessarily true, and indeed not even likely. There are other equally coherent explanations that appear (at least to me) far more likely.
I'm unclear on what "it" refers to. If you mean misjudgement so severe, or ideological notions so extreme, that a reasonable and informed future consensus might hold that this administration served america very badly indeed and that personalities central to decision-making were deeply causal. Well, that's clearly possible and you know it. You and Lear...you loved too much.

Quote:
A second issue I have with the piece is that, while it makes no attempt whatever to present (or even to refer to) an alternative solution to an admittedly complex strategic problem,
Nor should it. That's not a reporter's task. When you see a drunk driver on the road in front of you and call the police (so as to protect others) do you really want the cop on the other end demand you proffer solutions to drunk driving?

Once again, for someone who professes a preference for small government (because governments aren't to be trusted) you show a remarkable ability to succumb to the comfort of trusting precisely that which you believe dangerous.

Quote:
it is suffused with the certainty that the administration's actual actions, contemplated ones, and subjective intentions are all necessarily wrong.
No it isn't. It is suffused with distrust of the administration's honesty and prudence.

Quote:
I was bemused by the cited opinions of Zbigniew Brzezinski - now a sage elder much in favor with the liberal establishment. He was Jimmy Carter's NSC Director during the Iranian Revolution. Given the abject failure of that unlamented Administration's policy with respect to the outrageous events surrounding that revolution, and their shameless betrayal of a dying former ally (who as history has subsequently shown ran a more progressive government in Iran than the present one) , Brzezinski is in no position to be taken seriously by thinking people today.
Another argument for another day.

Quote:
Criticism is itself often valuable. However people with an experience of responsibility and accountability know it is no substitute for a coherent alternative strategy, and that in the real world it is often guided by unseen motives and assumptions.
Sure. We are without full data and even if we had it we'd still be swimming in quandries. But so what? Do you want to carry forward with your implications and chuck all investigative reporters into the brig?

But what really pisses me off here in that last sentence is "accountability". There is almost none. And that is absolutely intentional. Withholding information, denying access to staff, attempting to pass legislation which will protect them retroactively, etc etc. Perhaps you think they will be held accountable by historians. Like Stalin.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:12 am
This article appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald yesterday. News to us!:

'US plan to bomb Iran'

Australia, Britain and Israel have "expressed interest" in a US campaign to launch "surgical" bombing raids on Iran targeting the Revolutionary Guard facilities, one of the US's leading investigative reporters, Seymour Hersh, reports. ...<cont>


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-plan-to-bomb-iran/2007/10/01/1191090983037.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:48 am
hi dollface

Yes. We are proximate to the point where we'll just have to, once again, get out the torches, pitchforks and Acme Guillotines (made in china).
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 09:57 am
spendius wrote:
I got into "Gold" four years ago c.i.

I don't fancy all this technical jargon.


spendi, Gold is not the best investment to fight inflation; it's the stock market.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 01:51 pm
Quote:
Washington, DC - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton today announced that she is co-sponsoring legislation introduced by Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) that prohibits the use of funds for military operations against Iran without explicit Congressional authorization (S. 759).
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=284618
Whiff of sanity.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 02:15 pm
Certainly a wiff of something, though I suspect it has more to do with self-righteous & vain posturing (on the part of the ever-strange Jim Webb), and pre-election opportunism (on the part of the ever-adaptable Hillary).

Never mind that the Constitution has something to say about the matter.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 03:33 pm
Bernie wrote-

Quote:
But what really pisses me off here in that last sentence is "accountability". There is almost none. And that is absolutely intentional. Withholding information, denying access to staff, attempting to pass legislation which will protect them retroactively, etc etc. Perhaps you think they will be held accountable by historians. Like Stalin


There is accountability. It is to the self. And one's family. If that doesn't exist then the American educational system has played a role and also the American electorate if it has twice selected a man who it believes has no sense of decency as your statement implies.

I think the burdens on Mr Bush's shoulders would crush most men.

Withholding information, denying access to staff and anything else of that nature are perfectly legitimate activities when conducting the sort of campaign the American Government (not Mr Bush) is engaged upon.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 03:39 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Certainly a wiff of something, though I suspect it has more to do with self-righteous & vain posturing (on the part of the ever-strange Jim Webb), and pre-election opportunism (on the part of the ever-adaptable Hillary).

Never mind that the Constitution has something to say about the matter.


There is nothing in the proposal that violates the constitution.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 07:41 pm
From the American Conservative...
Quote:
The purportedly perfidious role of Iran in Iraq sits at the center of the case for war. One can hardly open a newspaper or political magazine without reading table-pounding condemnations of Tehran. The Washington Post's editorialists declare that Iran "is waging war against the United States and trying to kill as many American soldiers as possible," and Reuel Marc Gerecht of the American Enterprise Institute warns Newsweek's readers that the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps "have long given aid to a varied list of terrorists, including, quite possibly, al Qaeda."

The curious thing about the case against Iran, however, is that hawks have created this perception without providing so much as a Powell-at-the-UN-style dossier of evidence. Although administration officials have parroted claims against Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) for months, the charges are wholly based on inferential and nonspecific evidence that pales in comparison even to the trumped-up charges leveled against Iraq in 2002 and 2003.
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_24/article1.html
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Oct, 2007 08:02 pm
From cnn.com:

Report: No WMD stockpiles in Iraq
CIA: Saddam intended to make arms if sanctions ended

Thursday, October 7, 2004 Posted: 10:50 AM EDT (1450 GMT)

Charles Duelfer, head of the Iraq Survey Group, testifies Wednesday at a Senate Armed Services committee hearing.

According to a report by the CIA's Charles Duelfer, Saddam Hussein did not have WMD when the war began.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them, a CIA report concludes.

In fact, the long-awaited report, authored by Charles Duelfer, who advises the director of central intelligence on Iraqi weapons, says Iraq's WMD program was essentially destroyed in 1991 and Saddam ended Iraq's nuclear program after the 1991 Gulf War.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 07:16 am
george and spendi...listen up.

Your information salvation is at hand. Bypass the banal. Vault over the vain posturers. Dodge the drivel and flank the flacks.

The Ministry of Truth is online and you are just the boys to simplify your bookmarks down to one.

Quote:
No citizen could dare trust the agenda-driven print media -- The Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times -- to figure out, let alone accurately tell, the "real" story.

But now the State Department is in the blogosphere, and says it "offers the public an alternative source to mainstream media for U.S. foreign policy information." The blog, launched last week and called "Dipnote," is "taking you behind the scenes."

This is what we've all been waiting for! No more media filters and distortions. Unbiased news directly from the federal government, a news source long noted for truthful, unbiased reporting. The Clinton administration and most all its predecessors vowed to end-run the media, and they finally have the new electronic media to help them to do it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100202033.html?hpid=sec-politics
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 09:24 am
Before I listen up Bernie you might try responding to my last post. After all debate does not consist of simply changing the subject and hoping nobody will notice. That's like- "Did you have sex with that woman? being given the reply- "Isn't it a lovely day today?"

I think that your underlying assumption, that the Administration has no moral compass and will lay waste people's lives in large numbers in the service of dividends, a not unknown circumstance I'll admit, is wrong. And if it is right there is some fundamental flaw in the educational system and in the electoral process which produced it and twice elected it.

To prevent constant repetitions of the same thing oughtn't you to focus your undoubted talents upon those flaws.

Max Hastings offered two quick solutions. Establish a monarchy or have a raffle for the presidency. He seems to think that either couldn't possibly be worse that what you have.

Might I suggest that the "Voucher" system in education might do something to correct the flaw in education although I admit, again, that your friends in the chattering professions, no farmers, miners, truckers or steelworkers in sight, and your beloved media, which you don't half toady to, a champ almost, might be none too enthusiastic about taking education out of the hands of these petty officials and bureaucrats, most of whom found their positions through various types of directed
advertising, and into the hands of teachers who can then respond to market demand. If that market demand resulted in the best schools teaching that laying waste people's lives in large numbers in the service of dividends is a jolly good thing then at least we will all know where we stand. And, according to your general tone, if that happened we would be no worse off than we are now unless getting more honest is worse than all this "mealy-mouthed, mealy mouthed truth that the sly trot out", as D.H. Lawrence called it.

As for your dear media and investigative journalists. They are jealous of politicians. They envy them their power. Obviously. They are all power mad themselves and there they are sat on the sidelines whilst all these provincial oiks make the real decisions.

They will have a good dump on every politician they can find who has stepped out of line, and a few who haven't but "are said" to have by unimpeachable sources (fill up next three lines to your taste), with a glee not unlike that of a Jack Nicholson creation creeping up to the sleeping virgin in a film about Giles de Retz. (Now there's an idea- eh?).

They drool. MINISTER IN KGB "TWO-UP" SHOCK!!! They drool alright. Their eyes gleam. They emote their disdain. The wine bars where they gather, you probably know a few, are agog with excitement and barely concealed vicarious carnality. I've seen them. They can't get enough. They pit the best brains they can find, out of that catchment which abandoned difficult subjects at 16 but not their ambitions, against our elected representitives (they are unelected of course-- how are they selected incidentally?) late at night when they are tired and strained and ask them trick questions none of which admit of an answer in the time left before a word from our sponsors. They have got a whiff of the sweet smell of success.

Not that Ill be reading the blogs either. They'll be bullshit too.

I'm watching the parking meters. Remember.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 09:33 am
Quote:

I think that your underlying assumption, that the Administration has no moral compass and will lay waste people's lives in large numbers in the service of dividends, a not unknown circumstance I'll admit, is wrong. And if it is right there is some fundamental flaw in the educational system and in the electoral process which produced it and twice elected it.


You're wrong on the first count and right on the second.

Your assumption that media could only be envious of the power of politicians is telling about how you personally would act in a similar position.

Cycloptichorn
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 09:47 am
Bernie quoted-

Quote:
a news source long noted for truthful, unbiased reporting.


Well- I suppose "America is addicted to oil", vouches for the truth of that.

And Media has a very large interest in pretending that America is not addicted to oil simply by brushing that particular news under the carpet as best it could and then quickly changing the subject to one that suits it better. Or better a snowstorm of them.

The addiction is, of course, worse than that of any heroin addict. The cold-turkey is not even discussable. Not on the backside of an ad for a gas-guzzler or a weekender in Paris. Not on your Nelly.

Anybody who slides away from that un-biased reporting in their carpet slippers needs to be lied to. For their own good.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 10:38 am
Cyclo-

Do you mean I'm wrong that it is Bernie's underlying assumption or that I'm wrong in thinking the assumption is wrong. Which I do.

Quote:
Your assumption that media could only be envious of the power of politicians is telling about how you personally would act in a similar position.


That is a ridiculous statement. If I was in a similar situation as the denizens in media it is axiomatic that I would do as they do. The fact that I would not act that way is why I'm not in the troughshed with them.

Just watch them Cyclo when a juicy story appears. They are called "juicy" because you can see the juice running down their chins when they are chewing on one. Due to a technical error, a rare but revealing occurence, we got a glimpse, 5 secs or so, of Mr Adam Boulton actually snarling. Maybe you don't know but the price competition in foodstuffs which are a substantial source of the earnings they live off have forced farmers into adopting fiendish methods of production which would no doubt be ten times worse if it wasn't for some government regulation slight though it is.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 07:43 pm
A major problem here is that Bush doesn't believe in diplomacy, especially with countries of which he doesn't approve. Iran has begged for discussions, but Bush believes only in power and threats.

I hope our country can escape great injury during the next 16 months in which the decider remains in office.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Oct, 2007 07:48 pm
Do you also fault Israel for not holding discussionwith Iran?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Oct, 2007 03:49 am
That no discussions are taking place is an assertion for which no evidence is offered and, as such, need not detain us unless we wish to be detained.

It is most unlikely to be true. Mr Kissinger spent many months in a Parisian suburban house with N Vietnamese representitives whilst serious bombing, defoliations and killings went on.
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