Little Miss Naughty-Pants

I may have missed something, but if there is more than one system going, yes, they are cancelling each other out. There needs to be one positive reinforcement system in place (path to treasure chest) and no negative system (clips and red lights.)

Some kids will need to earn 20 steps down the treasure chest path and some will need to earn 50. In other words, some kids that are already quiet and reserved will need to be caught being good / on task fewer times during the week in order to continue to reinforce the good behavior. Others will need to be caught being good more often in order to continue their good behavior.

A solution might be for the teacher to change the system to a daily path instead of weekly, and then as it starts working make it two days, three days and then a week gradually.

You might also see what she has in the treasure chest. If it isn't something ducky wants or cares about, none of the other will matter. If you know what would motivate her, maybe you could donate that to the treasure chest for her to earn.

Ah, the treasure box.... I remember those days well.

M was in a system similar to what C_Jane describes. Each table was allowed to go to the treasure box as a group unless they were deemed unworthy of a prize. It was intended to be an incentive towards good behavior, but there's no such thing as a perfect reward system and this one was far from perfect.

M was at a table with The Kicker. In fact, she referred to him by his title rather than by his name because she didn't know his name and decided early on that she didn't care to know his name. He was simply The Kicker.

About a month into the school year, M told me that life in Mrs W's room was unfair. Every table in the room got to go the the treasure box every day except her table because of The Kicker. It didn't matter how much energy the rest of the kids spent trying to keep him in line, he was a wild cannon and it was hopeless. She'd given up trying to be good because it simply didn't matter what her actions were since she was being judged by the actions of another (she was pretty insightful at a very early age).

I asked her if she'd like me to talk to the teacher and at first she said no but then came back and sheepishly asked me if I would. It seems she cared after all. I made the phone call and asked Mrs W if she would like to hear M's perspective on the kindergarten justice system. Mrs W replied that she did hold that table to a slightly lower standard than the rest of the tables because of The Kicker and that they did occasionally get to go to the treasure box. She agreed, however, that it would be hard for the other kids to see the nuances of what she was trying to accomplish. Maia had already noticed that The Kicker was getting special treatment, such as a trip to the treasure box for sitting still during reading time, and she was quite vocal about him getting special treatment for his own actions away from the table while the rest of the table was getting dinged for not keeping him in line.

Mrs W offered to mix up all the tables and rotate The Kicker to different groups every few weeks. For six year old M, this seemed better but still wrong for the kids to have to take turns being punished (as in not rewarded) for one kid's behaviors. She said as much to Mrs W. who called me and told me she'd had a very deep conversation with M about fairness and equitable treatment of others and that she was sure M would go far in life. I think she was right.

Yeah, I missed that initially myself. I understand the stop light system as it has been used in other classrooms, but it gradually emerged that they could earn things called "quiet coins" (I mistook them for quiet points, earlier, but same concept). If they get 10 of these they get to go to the treasure chest. If they don't get their clip moved past green all week then they get to go to the treasure chest. She must be behaving sometimes or she wouldn't have been able to earn these coins, but apparently she cancels out her own good behavior with sudden egregious missteps.

I don't think I can get the teacher to ditch the light system, but I may ask her to make a list of the explicit behaviors that are prohibited and only move the clip for those. I feel like she doesn't realize she's doing something punishable, and so doesn't draw any connection between her own choices and the consequences. She thinks she's just getting her clip moved randomly. The marker in hair thing, for instance. I'm sure she thought that since she wasn't talking she wasn't doing anything wrong. Then another girl told on her and she got her clip moved. The connection she made was that she got her clip moved because someone told on her, not that she did something she wasn't supposed to do. I've told her that she's responsible for her behavior, and that her friends can't tell on her if she's not doing anything wrong. But it's almost like the list of what she's not allowed to do keeps expanding and she doesn't understand it. Part of this is her personality -- she pushes the limits to find out what she can't do, and I'm sure that some of these things aren't things the teacher expected to have to prohibit. I'm sure there's no rule that says "no rolling out the toilet paper on the floor in the bathroom".

I don't know, I don't mean to defend her behavior, but I really don't think she's trying to be the classroom beast.

Wow, good story, JPB. When I read CJane's description the first thing I thought of was how it wouldn't be fair if one table got a "bad kid". But I do see the value of peer pressure, especially at this age when peers are so important to them. M sounds like a bright child.

I'd just as soon they ditch the treasure box, personally. I think these kids are still at an age where verbal praise goes a long way and maybe even means more.

I asked Ducklet if she knew why she wasn't supposed to write on her desk and she said "no" (and I believe her). I told her that they have to use those desks next year and the year after that and some other kid will get her desk and won't want to see her writing all over it. She understood that but countered that she did it in pencil and erased it. I told her not to do it anyway.

re marker in hair, yeah, that should have just been a "Ducky, we don't color our hair with marker. The markers are for coloring on paper." kinda notice. If Ducky insisted and did it again we'd know she knew better.

Put me down as another one against turning 5 year olds into tattletales or peer pressure police. Ugh!

I'd much rather have seen the tattler get to move her clip down for tattling than for Duckie to take a hit. The teacher seems to have reached the point of believing anything she hears about Duckie from whoever she's hearing it from. This is NOT a good dynamic and, imo, should be brought to the teacher's attention. She may not realize she's crossed a line, but she has.

As to using the markers on her hair.... um, what can I say except that when my girls were a few years older than Duckie and wanted to start dying their hair funky colors, I bought them colored Sharpies instead? If you don't mind that she has marker in her hair, what's it to the teacher?

I've never been an in-your-face parent with my kids teachers, but there have been times when I've had to advocate on their behalf. As much as you agree in principle with enforcing proper classroom behaviors, I'd probably express my concern on the excess attention Duckie is drawing at this point.

I agree, and it seems I had to advocate for my child in the first two years
of schooling (Kindergarten, first grade) more than in any other years combined. Kindergarten was really tough for us, and in retrospect, I wish
I had spoken up more on behalf of my daughter.

Concerning the treasure box, it wasn't an ideal reward system, but it did
work to keep the youngsters in line. The kids were rotated weekly to different
tables in order to discourage clique forming (that was kept up throughout
the years), and the trouble maker - all classes have one - was placed
on a single table for a while.

This is the impression I'm getting too, but I'm not there and I can't say for sure. I don't like the idea of her getting in trouble for things the teacher didn't actually witness, and according to Ducklet, that's what happened in three of the cases this week. But again, that's her point of view and I'll have to ask the teacher what really happened.



I agree about this one too. I asked her about the marker and she said "it was washable marker". It washes out and it's her hair. If she was doing that instead of paying attention or doing her work, then I see the problem. So I need to find out from the teacher what's actually going on.



That's also my concern. Some of the other kids appear to have noticed that she gets in trouble, and that has definitely changed the dynamic. I asked her today if she sometimes felt like people thought she was a bad kid in class and she said yes. So she's already internalizing it. I told her she's not a bad kid, she just hasn't figured out how to do what she needs to do to get by in that class yet, and that we'd work on it. I asked her if she wants me to talk to her teacher about it and she said yes. So I emailed the teacher this morning asking for a conference next week to discuss her behavior issues. So I guess we'll go from there.

Thanks to everyone here for their insights and advice. It really means a lot to me.

Just wanted to say good luck with the talk, and to throw out some random thoughts here.

I feel sort of bad for the Ducklette. She sounds so smart, and not bad, just full of energy and a little bit fiesty.

She reminds me of myself when I was little. In my kindergarten, it was a french school and I spoke mainly english, but I did speak french. We weren't allowed to speak english, at all, except during recess so you can imagine how much I struggled at first, and no because I was trying to be bad. I was confused! I forgot.

Anyways, we had some system not that far from what you are talking about. They rewarded ya if you spoke french, behaved, sat still. You got a 'treat'.

My parents yanked me out of that school, for various reasons, half way in and I went to another french speaking school.

I did really well there, and what I remember is that there was no rewards. None.

When we were to be quiet, for reading or writing or whatever - there wasn't a lot of quiet then, we ran around at our school a lot and we even had nap times, snack times...but I guess that's the difference now: kindergarten as i knew it has been replaced by pre-school, and the kids are expected to sit still more and more at an earlier age!

Anyhow, when we were to be quiet the teach used a bell. Yup. She rang a bell.

If you didn't be quiet, after a bit of settling, and there was awesome good transitions - from activity, to rest, all different little rooms...so you associated different places with different activities only...if you weren't quiet you got extra work and lost out on playtime.

I don't know, this probably doesn't help at all, but it does make me think that the way kids are expected to learn, and the environments, and the real honest to god cut backs in physical - just raw physical activity time for kids as young as 5 has got to be part of why this is such a problem.

"soft" teachers were always a problem with me, and I thrived with the "tougher" clearer and more direct ones - the straight up approach.

It might be as silly as this teacher holds no sway with the Ducklette. Good teacher or not; some personalities and systems don't work so well with others regardless of the age of people.

I just hope school stays a positive experience for her! It's awesome you are working so hard to help make that happen. That's got to be a big help no matter what else is happening.

Thanks for your comments, mushy. I see Ducklet the same way -- energetic, fiesty, creative, but not bad. Of course, I'm her mother so I would, wouldn't I?

The talk is on Thursday. I've thought a lot about what I should say. I think I'll ask if there are any obvious triggers for the undesired behavior -- like right after lunch, before recess, etc... And if there are other children who have problems that might be influencing her. I also plan to assert that I see her energy and creativity as positive traits even if they might produce some undesired behavior in a classroom setting. I feel like I need to be on her side. I asked her the other day if there was anything she wanted me to say to her teacher when I talk to her and she said "anything you want, just not 'Ducklet is bad'". So I won't be telling her that Ducklet is bad. :wink:

The reward system is something that has never really worked for Ducklet. She'll behave well if she understands why she has to and if she expects consistent consequences for not doing so. The two paths to the reward is also a problem -- she will do the one that requires the least effort. The big problem is that all of the things that I think would help would require classroom changes that it's not fair to ask for just one kid, although I do intend to find out if others are also experiencing difficulties. Like, what would happen if, instead of quiet coins, you allowed kids to move the clip in both directions. As in, what if red wasn't the final state. So if Ducklet had trouble at lunchtime, say, and got her clip moved to yellow, but then got her act together, she could move it back to green. But again, I don't know how difficult it is to change a classroom wide system like that this far into the school year.

Could you spend a day in class to observe the kids and the teacher interaction, FreeDuck?
You can gain some insight in the class dynamics, how the teacher is
handling certain problems with the kids, and how they react to her.

It was an eye opener for me, when I did.

I plan to, yes. I like to volunteer as a teacher's helper. That way, the teacher doesn't feel like I'm spying on her (and neither does my daughter) but I get to see what's going on. Of course, my being there changes things, but if I can get them to forget I'm there then it might be an eye opener.

I went last Thursday to talk with the teacher. Based on our conversation, it appears there is some difference between the main teacher and the assistant as to how Ducklet's behavior is perceived. Mrs. H, the main teacher, basically said the biggest problem they have with Ducklet is getting her to follow directions, and that the other things that were written on the behavior report were put there by Mrs. R, the assistant. She seemed less concerned with the hair play and other incidents. The examples she gave me of Ducklet not following directions seemed to suggest that Ducklet doesn't hop to it quickly enough -- she's told to put her pencil down but she just HAS to finish the sentence she's on. Mrs. R came in after we had been talking a while and joined the conversation. From the things that she said, it's pretty clear that she thinks Ducklet is a naughty pants, and she is the one who reprimands her for playing with her hair, peeling chipping paint off the wall in the lunch room, and other sorts of impulsive things.

So, with a pretty clear picture of what's going on now, I asked about the discipline system and the quiet coins. Mrs. H said that they were changing the rules so that, even with 10 quiet coins, they can't go to the treasure chest if they get on red. I asked about classroom rules. She pointed to the wall where a poster said:

Responsible
Respectful
(Something)
(Something else)

I pointed out that Ducklet needs things to be pretty explicit, and that if, when they tell her she can't do something, they could frame it in terms of one of the 4 rules, she would be more likely to comply. Mrs. H did say that she constantly wants to know why she can't do something (to which Mrs. R says "she knows why", to which I said "no she doesn't"). So I asked them to please tell her why. For example, we don't do our hair in class because it's disruptive and distracting and not Respectful to the rest of the class. We don't run in the hall because it's irresponsible and we could hurt someone or ourselves. Mrs. R asked me if there was some way we could reward at her home for getting through the week without getting on red, and I said, "well, I could, but you've already got a reward for her here with the treasure box, and I don't see what adding an additional reward will do for her -- and that's never worked for her".

To wrap it up, I told them that Ducklet is smart and creative and curious (to which they agreed), and that some of the problems are related to her personality and there isn't much I want to do to change it, but that I would reinforce all of their rules at home and would explore whether I could provide further incentives for good behavior. It went well. I'm satisfied that they understood me and I feel like things will get better. I talked to Ducklet at length about the other behaviors and why they are not appropriate in class as relates to the 4 rules, and she seems to understand. I am also encouraged that Mrs. H doesn't seem to have as big of a problem with Ducklet as Mrs R.

Sorry if this post is all over the place. I haven't quite organized my thoughts about the whole thing.

Wow, excellent job!! It sounds like you handled that fantastically well. Too bad about Mrs. R. Is she older? That sounds bad, but I've found that the assistants -- especially older ones who have raised kids -- tend to get into mom mode as opposed to educator mode, and that's not always the correct mode. Especially if their own way of parenting is more strict than what tends to be standard nowadays.

Anyway, it looks like you've charted a really good, realistic course, that should make things better for Ducklet. I look forward to updates...

I was thinking the same thing about Mrs. R and mom mode. She's not older but she does have kids whereas Mrs. H does not.

Thanks for the encouragement! It's so hard to find the sweet spot between supporting the teacher and advocating for the kid, but I feel pretty good about it. I don't know what I would do without A2K to help me sort it all out.

No kidding, that's why I'm so impressed.

You are too kind.

There is a funny sort of side story to "the talk". The talk was scheduled for 2:30, which is right when the kids get out. I expected the two ducks to be on their way home on the bus, but about halfway through the conversation the two of them walk in. They had seen me walking into the school and got off the bus and came to find me. I was a little surprised, but I asked them to wait outside in the hallway. After a few seconds, I looked up and saw Duckie (her brother), sitting in the middle of the doorway pretending to read a book, with his eyes popping up over the top of it, clearly and obviously eavesdropping. It was a very funny sight.

I'm sure that Ducklet also heard some of what was said, which I actually think is a good thing because it went well. If it had not gone well that might not have been so great, but in this case I think it helped.

Cute!

Yeah, she got to see you advocate for her and her teacher help figure out how to make things go better -- win-win.

I have one of these coming up, I think, smaller scale but some of the same concerns. Sozlet's a major reader, and she's feeling like the teacher isn't giving her hard enough reading assignments/ that she's in the wrong reading group. (One down from the highest level, and she wants to be in the highest level and thinks she belongs there*.) I'd tend to agree with her from the reading homework she brings home. (She'll read her homework and then go pick up something 2-3 grade levels higher to read for pleasure.)

It's tricky to bring up, though. It's early in the school year, they could still be figuring out reading levels. I dunno, I haven't really figured it out -- whether anything needs to be done and if so, what.

Conferences are coming up soon enough, so that'll give me a chance to address it I think.

*This is itself uncertain -- it's coming from her, but when I talked to her teacher earlier in the year, she said that there were about 6 kids at sozlet's level of reading, and there are about 6 kids in her group, so maybe she already IS at the highest level and she misunderstood...? Something to find out I guess. I just don't want to be too, I dunno, status-y about it... it doesn't matter if she's in the highest level, it matters if she's being challenged and is enjoying herself.

Good luck with that and let me know how it goes. Duckie is having some of those same concerns but not with reading groups. The librarian won't let him check books out from anywhere except the 2nd grade section, and they only get one book per week. The result is that he gets a book, reads it on the bus, and then has to carry it around in his backpack for a week before he can get another book. I'm thinking that the librarian needs time to assess which kids can pick from more difficult material so I'm letting it play out for a while. We go to the public library to get things that are a little more challenging for him to read. If it keeps up then I'll go and talk to her.

I tend to think that sozlet is outspoken enough to advocate for herself in that kind of situation, but Duckie won't challenge it. He won't, for example, just ask the librarian if he can read from the 3rd grade books, he just assumes he can't.

Anyway, good luck!

FreeDuck--

Good for you.

I have a feeling your Ducky Daughter can only benefit from knowing that the grownups in her life may not be on identical wave lengths, but that they are united on Best Interests of the Child.