Little Miss Naughty-Pants

Ok, well, it's getting worse. Her clip was moved every day this week. On her weekly behavior report, next to each day her clip was moved is a little description of why it was moved. It looks like this:

talking
talking
writing on desk; playing in bathroom
writing on desk
coloring hair with marker
running down the hall

She's out of control, clearly, but I admit to laughing out loud by the time I got to "coloring hair with marker". Wait, there's more. In the teacher's comments section I'm told she gets in trouble for "constant talking, playing with food, unrolled tp on bathroom floor..." The teacher says she started behaving worse when she realized that she already had 10 quiet points (meaning she'd get to go to the treasure chest anyway).

I'm not sure how to respond. This is two bad weeks in a row, and she gets worse as the week progresses.

Getting attention for bad behavior can only encorage that behaviour.

Focus, reward and comment on good behavior only and constantly, even if there was none. Ignore bad behavior completely.

Do you suspect a peer group influence? Does she gets tiitters laughter and attention from peers for outrageous behavior? Perhaps a word with parents of her immediate peer group about not responding? Thats difficult I know, and would need a study of behavior over a period of time.

I don't know, I'm sure other kids do laugh at some of her antics. Other things, like writing on her desk and coloring her hair, I don't think she thinks are wrong.

It seems like she IS being rewarded for good behavior, and that's mitigating any regret she feels for having her clip moved. Once she knows she has enough "quite points" to go to the treasure chest, then all bets are off.

Hmmmmmmm...

Something about the teacher's approach strikes me as off but I'm not coming up with anything actually constructive to suggest.

I'll keep thinking...

What came of the talk with the teacher? (Sorry if you said and I forgot.) Any suggestions for what you can do?

No, after I talked to her several weeks ago it got better for a bit. She didn't really have any suggestions. The last two weeks she's gotten on the red light -- last week once, this week twice. I feel like this is a limits thing. The red light was a limit, but after she got on it for the first time it became acceptable to her and it's no longer a deterrent. Especially if she can still get to the treasure chest by earning her way there in other ways. I'm inclined to ask the teacher to take away quiet points if she gets on red, but I'm not sure about that either.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. (Maybe the quiet points should be at risk, but maybe not.)

I guess bring it up with the teacher again, and push for ideas about what you can do?

There, that's what's bothering me -- it doesn't seem very proactive. Just kinda "yeah, it's getting worse and worse," without any "so how about if we do this about it" follow-up.

I know she probably has a lot on her plate though.

I know it isn't funny but... Ha! You gotta love when they figure out the system so quickly. She's a little smarty pants.

It's probably just a lot more structure than she is used to. You probably aren't that uptight at home with rules. General rules, yes, but talk only when you have a green light? A lot to adjust to. She's probably also setting herself up in the heirarchy, deciding how she wants to be percieved by her classmates.

Still listening and thinking. Can't take away what's earned, but maybe the system needs to be adjusted so that she doesn't earn the required clips as quickly.

Hey, get those women teachers in black robes...

Have to figure out what I mean by that. My memories are that we were one hell of an obedient group, whatever school I went to, which harkens back to Set's pov. We shaped up and were in ship shape, early.
Not that this is perfect, but, on the other hand... Sister Mel did pitch at recess.

I may be more for constrained activity than laxfulsome.
Don't know, which is actually why I continue reading, aside from caring about posters - I mostly skip threads I'm decided on, at least in the long run.

I react to how game-y it is, but I suppose the reasons games work, and did for me too, is that... they work. (I adored spelling and geography bees, so much fun). A good part of why I ever wanted to go to Italy and Brazil..

But then those spelling baseball games, looking back, likely slammed and/or shut down other kids.

So, I'm a bit icky with all the gamesmanship, including what happens if you make it to RED.

I know what you're saying. But, you can look at it as games, or as pay. You do your job and get paid. They do theirs and get rewarded. It's still training them to do well. Unfortunately, grade cards are too far apart and removed to be self-reinforcing.

When my daughter was in kindergarten, the kids were rewarded as a group.
For example, if all kids at table 1 were behaving well during the week, they
collectively could go to the treasurer box.

If there was a trouble maker at one of the tables, not only the teacher
was trying to reason with that child, the peers sitting at the same table made
also sure, that everyone was behaving accordingly.

Since my daughter was/is a talker and had to be repeatedly reminded to be quiet (to no avail),
her peers succeeded in keeping her quiet, and had ultimately far more impact on her behavior.

The whole treasure box thing throws me.
Will read along...


Thinking, we got stars (and hey, even that may be something I have to think about.) Class accolades / class stiffed. I'd rather have things more plastic.

I don't like brains all decided so early, talk about channelling.

My cousin, couldn't spell, read for ****, flunked latin, 800 on the SATs in math, back when that was top score. Felt dumb most of her childhood.

To me, all the Stars and accumulated stuff for the more easy learners must build as discouraging for the less easy.

Or are kids in your schools screened to be super sharpies from preschool plus? I can see that is happening, but...

Treasure box stuff is for behavior? (shudder).

Yeah, treasure box is for behavior. Academically she's fine. Her kindergarten evaluation was in the folder today with the behavior report and it basically says she's doing very well. But yeah, I remember stars too, and I think those little tokens work well for academic work.

Squinney has a point about the more structured environment. Some of these things that she gets in trouble for at school don't have punishment type consequences at home. If she rolled out the toilet paper at home, she'd have to clean that up right away, but she wouldn't get a time out for it. Same with marker in her hair. Writing on the walls is a no-no, but if something is "hers" then she can write on it all she wants. I think she just thought her desk was "hers", but after getting in trouble for it once she should have known better.

I'm inclined to say that the treasure box and stop light system just won't work for her, but the teacher can't scrap her whole classroom system just because it doesn't work for one kid. I also don't think they get enough recess time, but that's another subject. All in all, it looks like I need to go talk to her teacher again.

Still thinking about the two paths to the treasure chest, as I think that's where the problem is. I get why they do it -- quiet points are positive reinforcement while the stop light system is negative reinforcement. It's just that the one negates the other in this case. I don't know what to suggest, though. I wrote a note to the teacher asking to meet to discuss the problems. It'll go back with her on Tuesday (Monday's a teacher work day) and we'll go from there.

WHEN SHE BEHAVES BADLY SHE GETS REWARDED.

Sorry but she does.

The red light, the clip moving either way are all getting attention for her.

I don't think the disciplinary measures are strong enough for her.

It sounds as if the social interaction (talking) are important to her.

If you cant work within the rules of the classroom then you should not be allowed to participate. Go and stand in the hall or sit outside the principals office until you decide you can participate within the rules.

By the way have you showed your displeasure? have you "gotten very cross" with her behaviour. What consequences for behavior at school are active at home?

Not sure if thats allowed these days.

I have shown my displeasure, but I stop short of heaping additional punishment on her when 1) I don't know what actually happened and 2) I don't find out about it until the end of the week, which I think is too late to do anything additional at home.

I really don't think she enjoys the negative attention, but I could be wrong. I'm a little confused about how this is evolving. Initially, her problem was that she talked too much and sometimes didn't follow directions. Now the descriptions of her behavior sound like some tazmanian devil has been unleashed in the classroom. Something has escalated her behavior and I'd like to know what.