Little Miss Naughty-Pants

The poor little kid! So young and already subjected to the most awful discipline! I feel very sorry for her.

Wow, this is all just too much. Having now read this thread, i have developed an almost overpowering desire to find this teacher, and stuff her mouth full of little scraps of red, yellow, green and brown construction paper before i slowly choke her to death. What kind of psychopath came up with that cutsie disciplinary system. Life, and school, were considerably different fifty years ago. That who system is Orwellian.

You guys are sweet -- defending my little naughty pants. I do share some of your feelings. However, to gain perspective, I'm quite sure that she is not being subjected to the most awful discipline, having experienced something considerably worse when I was her age. The stop light/treasure box thing is fairly standard these days and I just can't think of what a teacher could use in its place that would be better.

Oh come on, Duck . . . i want to choke somebody, and you're not cooperating.

We were put out in the hall to sit there a specified period of time if we acted up in class. Woe to the child who was sitting in the hall when the Principal made one of his sweeps. I find the stop light/treasure box thing to be a rather pathetic and bizarre system of punishments and rewards, and i think it reflects and unhealthy view of what is being done in a school. Children should be disciplined for not socializing their behavior properly in the classroom--but they shouldn't be rewarded for doing what they are required to do. If you go through a year in which you commit no misdemeanors and get no traffic citations, do you expect the state government to send you a check? Do you get to go down to the courthouse and rummage in a treasure chest for a prize?

I just find it all bizarre, and a step removed from the reality that students are expected to behave in a certain manner, for which there is no reward because that is the required social behavior--and for which the failure to do so will result in disciplinary measures. Tarting it up with colored bits of paper just adds a confusing dimension, and i don't think does anything to help the student.

We were not allowed to speak--period--unless called upon. Most teachers kept a yardstick, and slapped it forcefully on the desk at the first murmur. I agree with that system. Recess and the playground are the places for social behavior, and the classroom is a place to observe the required discipline, with consequences for non-compliance. I see no reason to reward someone for behaving as they are required to behave.

Is there no one for me to choke ? ! ? ! ?

By the way, i heard a piece on the radio the other day as i was driving back from the beach about teachers who complained about students talking in class, and the level of noise. I was frankly flabbergasted. They had callers who expressed the same sentiment, and said, basically, what i said above. We were not allowed to talk in class--period. You spoke only when called upon to do so. I can't imagine students allowed to "chat" with one another at any time in the classroom--save it for the playground at recess or lunch.

Sorry. Carry on.



Well, yeah, but kids hardly get recess anymore and the teachers are no longer allowed to beat the children into submission. So here we are.

I actually am pretty sympathetic to what you say, Set. I just don't have any earthly idea of a better alternative. And, like you, I have no-one to choke.

Why not?

With all of this stuff I think there is the method itself, in a vacuum, and then separately how it is implemented.

My school was very chatty and loose and we all learned well -- very well, in fact. Sozlet's is too (in fact my dismay at Ducklet's situation is in the other direction -- I think sozlet probably acts similarly in terms of chattiness and the occasional sprint in the hallway, but luckily at her school those aren't punishable offenses).

I'd not have wanted to attend your school. Employers would be less than charmed with the notion that you thought you were being paid to spend eight hours wandering around chatting with other employees. Of course, if you think (anyone here) that you are raising an original thinker who will be self-employed all their working lives, and won't have to conform to the ordinary discipline of the work-a-day world, that's fine--but of course, working from home, they'll likely have no one to chat with.

I not only don't think there's anything wrong with the notion of children learning to discipline themselves for eight hours a day, five days a week (which is precisely what wage earners do), i think it is a good system for socializing children. I see no reason for them to chat in class, and consider that they are selfishly interfering with the educational experience of other students if they do so.

Set, there's some TIME between kindergarten and the workplace. I do not think I'm paid to spend 8 hours wandering around chatting with other employees. My employers have usually gone out of their way to praise my work ethic, in fact.

What kind of chatting do you think is going on? I forget the exact stat, but the vast majority of learning -- the stuff that sticks in your brain and that you use later on -- is through incidental learning. The stuff you pick up when you're chatting, not when you're sitting there listening to a lecture.

In my school, a lot of the "chatting" was older kids mentoring younger kids, helping them out with their work.



Oof, I'm not going to give an overview of the past 50 years of research on the most effective educational techniques.

Yeah, don't bother--there's no evidence in society that it has been effective. Certainly it has provided employment for people who had nothing better to contribute to society, or were to lazy or unqualified to do anything else.

Maybe I need to find her an apprenticeship. I bet she can set movable type with those tiny fingers.

Ha ha

What a bunch of comedians here.

Thank you for your sneer Duck, and your for your snottiness, Soz.

I won't darken your thread any longer.

It wasn't meant as a sneer, you old cantankerous fart. It was meant to make you laugh. Hey, look on the bright side, now you have TWO people to choke.

Something has been bothering me, but I didn't want to mention it before, perhaps I feel like this because of the way the society I come from is, (Great Britain) but I'll say it anyway.

There, these days, it would be thought quite inappropriate, suspect and more than a little unsavoury for an older adult male to dwell in writing or in conversation upon the topic of a little girl's knickers, even if only to nickname her "Miss naughty pants". Maybe other societies have different attitudes, but where I come from it would be rather heavily frowned upon and might well cause people to have certain suspicions. I do note that the nickname is frequently repeated by the original poster. I am probably barking up the wrong tree. I hope so.

Well, the original poster in question is the little girl's mother...

I have been avoiding this thread and others like it. Classroom management is hard to nail down until you've had a couple years of experience. At the start of each year, the teacher and students are getting to know each other. As that happens, the teacher implements classroom rules, jobs, expectations, etc. (or should). During the beginning of the year, the students move from rapt attention during which they're trying to figure things out to testing boundaries and limits.

I am not going to guess what little naughty knickers is doing in class or what her teacher is doing and if they are appropriate to their educational setting. But, I know from limited experience that one or two kids can change the temperment of a whole class. Sometimes the class can behave better to off-set the kid who speaks out or acts up, but usually that only happens in extreme cases seen in inclusive classrooms. Usually the whole class gets distracted and off-track.

As to the old-school classroom Setanta refers to...... I do think we need more hardline rules in the classroom, but without going back to the 50s. Not all kids will be going into banking - most will be going into a field that depends on their ability to collaborate and network. This doesn't come naturally to some people, they need to learn it.

The key is that all kids learn a little differently. Some kids would thrive in that lock-down setting, some would suffer. Some kids would thrive in the collaborative setting, some would suffer. Teachers are learning how to practice differentiated teaching skills so that all student have times when they thrive and times when they need to practice other learning styles. The trouble seems to be, to me, that kids have a hard time moving from silent work to collaborative work and back again. Actually, they have a hard time with silent work and transitioning back and forth makes it worse.

we can see the result of setantas advocated method of diciplining children.

Grumpy old men!

That was well-said, littlek, I agree.

Some of this may have to do with class size and control. I'm even older and crabbier than Set. I was taught in the mode he describes, and comfortable in it, little goody two shoes that I was. I remember my classes as large - I will have to dig out pictures to check the numbers, but 40+ children per Sister of Charity, or whatever order they were in the different schools I went to.

I naturally see Set's point and somewhat agree with it - but, I like what littlek K is saying about use of both modes. Much as I learned a lot in my grammar and high school years, I didn't learn to work well with others... until I got to work in a laboratory. And then this was enhanced when I went back to school in my forties, where we had to work as teams on some projects (and try not to choke the teammates).

I was shy, and didn't really come entirely out of that behavior gulch until I got an afterschool job the day I turned sixteen; I would guess that some of the more open plan type of teaching could help alleviate some children's shyness.

So, what, I'm interested in hearing about mixes of the two modes.

Well said, littlek.

My experience is something like osso's -- very strict. I didn't dare misbehave for fear of the teachers and of my mother. I did well in school but suffered in the area of communication (unless it was written communication) and collaboration. I also have had a hard time with leadership assignments in my job. I like what littlek said about mixing things up. I just wonder how hard that must be for a teacher. It seems like there should be a better way, but it is what it is.

As for little miss naughty pants (as soz said, I'm her mother) I don't think there will be a permanent solution. Her temperament is not likely to undergo major metamorphosis any time soon. All I can do is continue to stress that she do her best not to disrupt the class.