3
   

Why do we always hear six million for the Holocaust?

 
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 08:21 pm
nimh wrote:
"Between one quarter to one half of the Romani population was killed, upwards of 220,000 people. In Eastern Europe, Roma were deported to the Jewish ghettoes, shot by SS Einsatzgruppen in their villages, and deported and gassed in Auschwitz and Treblinka."


I am aware that Gypsies were sent to the camps and that some were gassed. I was not aware that they had been targeted by the Einzatsgruppen or sent to the Ghettos. But note that in my first post in this thread I did not say that the tactics used against the Jews were never used against other groups. Some of the tactics may have been so used, but I know of nothing that would indicate that their use against non-Jews was a general thing.

Quote:
"The T-4 Program was established in order to maintain the "purity" of the so-called Aryan race by systematically killing children and adults born with physical deformities or suffering from mental illness. Officially 75,000 to 250,000 people were killed between 1939 and 1941, including in the first Nazi gas chambers."


This was only an experimental use. My understanding is that T-4 didn't continue for the duration of the War and it was not created with the Jews in mind.

Quote:
"Scholarly estimates of deaths in the Sinti and Roma genocide range from 220,000 to 500,000 [5]. They were herded into ghettos, including the Warsaw Ghetto (April-June, 1942), where they formed a distinct subclass."


Note that the term used here is genocide, not Holocaust.

Estimates for the number of Jews of killed from the regions that the Germans controlled directly or indirectly range from 60-75%. So apparently the persecution of the Gypsies was not as systematic as the persecution of the Jews was.

Quote:
"On December 16, 1942, Himmler ordered that the Romani candidates for extermination should be deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau.


Weren't all Jews marked for extermination by the Wansee Protocol? Did Himmler's order apply to all Romani?
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 08:27 pm
snood wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong , but aren't Jewish people overrepresented among those who own Hollywood? Is that an anti-Semitic thing to acknowledge?


Would it be bigoted to ask why blacks are over-represented in the NBA? Why would such questions be important for any reason other than demonstrating the asker's bigotry?
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 08:50 pm
It is no more so [bigoted] than saying the Irish most often became cops or saloonkeepers. Media, movies and entertainment in general were areas that first generation Jews in the '20s and '30s felt comfy and in which made a success.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 10:23 pm
Ragman wrote:
It is no more so [bigoted] than saying the Irish most often became cops or saloonkeepers. Media, movies and entertainment in general were areas that first generation Jews in the '20s and '30s felt comfy and in which made a success.


But why would you need to point out someone's race, ethnicity or national origin?
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 10:45 pm
Why not? Simply, it's a fact of life. Interesting one, too.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 10:55 pm
The extermination of the Roma is very commonly referred to as the Roma Holocaust where I come from (Central Europe). Not genocide (word which was coined by Raphael Lemkin and entered international law in 1948)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 11:55 pm
flaja wrote:
I am aware that Gypsies were sent to the camps and that some were gassed. I was not aware that they had been targeted by the Einzatsgruppen or sent to the Ghettos. But note that in my first post in this thread I did not say that the tactics used against the Jews were never used against other groups. Some of the tactics may have been so used, but I know of nothing that would indicate that their use against non-Jews was a general thing.


Jews were persecuted for 'racial' reasons. The motive was not religion, but the Nazi ideology of a 'pure Aryan race'. Following this ideology, any group that was seen as 'inferior' and 'detrimental to the Aryan race' was to be eliminated.

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/map/lc/image/eur72110.gif

"Roma (Gypsies) were among the groups singled out on racial grounds for persecution by the Nazi regime. Roma were subjected to internment, deportation, and forced labor, and were sent to extermination camps. Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) also killed tens of thousands of Roma in the German-occupied eastern territories. The fate of the Roma closely paralleled that of Jews. It is difficult to determine the number of Roma killed during the Holocaust. It is estimated that of the approximately one million Roma living in Europe before the war, between 200,000 and 500,000 were killed." (source)


flaja wrote:
This was only an experimental use. My understanding is that T-4 didn't continue for the duration of the War and it was not created with the Jews in mind.


I don't think "only an experimental use" is a fitting description. T-4 was systematically executed all across the Reich. The motivation was, again, to create a superior race by eliminating all other elements. T-4 officially ended in 1941 (partially because large areas were seen as 'cleared', partially because of public opposition to a program of killing large numbers of Germans with disabilities), but the euthanasia programs continued until the end of the war - some of them using T-4 installations until 1945.

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/map/lc/image/ger73070.gif

"In Nazi usage, "euthanasia" referred to the systematic killing of those Germans whom the Nazis deemed "unworthy of life" because of alleged genetic diseases or defects. Beginning in the fall of 1939, gassing installations were established at Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, and Sonnenstein. Patients were selected by doctors and transferred from clinics to one of these centralized gassing installations and killed. After public outrage forced an end to centralized killings, doctors instead administered lethal injections to those selected for "euthanasia" in clinics and hospitals throughout Germany. In this way, the "euthanasia" program continued and expanded until the end of the war." (source)
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:17 am
flaja wrote:
snood wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong , but aren't Jewish people overrepresented among those who own Hollywood? Is that an anti-Semitic thing to acknowledge?


Would it be bigoted to ask why blacks are over-represented in the NBA? Why would such questions be important for any reason other than demonstrating the asker's bigotry?


I well understand the potential for racist intent in such a line of questions. But for me, it would really depend on who was asking and why.

For instance, if someone made the assertion that, since blacks were so predominant in the NBA then the culture and perspective and interests of blacks would permeate life within the NBA, I wouldn't see that as crazy or bigotted. I'm sure a white person on an all black NBA team might have some assimilating to do. There is certainly a hiphop influence on pregame rituals, on-court chatter, and the like.

Likewise, if Jewish people run a disproportionate amount of the entertainment industry, I wouldn't think it crazy or bigotted to observe that their perspective and culture could certainly influence that world.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:53 am
flaja wrote:
Some of the tactics may have been so used, but I know of nothing that would indicate that their use against non-Jews was a general thing.

Just goes to show you there are always still new things to learn..

flaja wrote:
Quote:
"Scholarly estimates of deaths in the Sinti and Roma genocide range from 220,000 to 500,000 [5]. They were herded into ghettos, including the Warsaw Ghetto (April-June, 1942), where they formed a distinct subclass."

Note that the term used here is genocide, not Holocaust.

Yet the term Holocaust is also used on the same page:

"The Porajmos (also Porrajmos), literally Devouring, is a term coined by the Romani (Gypsy) people to describe attempts by the regime in Nazi Germany to exterminate most of the Romani peoples of Europe during The Holocaust."

Still according to Wikipedia (all of this is just a click away if one just follows the link), the use of the term Holocaust for the genocide against the Romani by the Nazis is controversial, but widespread:

"The word "Holocaust" is also used in a wider sense to describe other actions of the Nazi regime. These include around half a million Roma and Sinti [..]. The use of the word in this wider sense is objected to by many Jewish organizations [..[."

A simple Google search confirms that the term Holocaust is very often used to describe the attempted extermination of the Roma as well: look at the first page of results of the 1 million hits for Roma + Holocaust - or of the 29,000 of those hits on sites of US universities - for example.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:21 am
Ragman wrote:
Why not? Simply, it's a fact of life. Interesting one, too.


But why is it interesting? What difference does it make what race, ethnicity or national origin somene is?
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:43 am
old europe wrote:
Jews were persecuted for 'racial' reasons. The motive was not religion, but the Nazi ideology of a 'pure Aryan race'. Following this ideology, any group that was seen as 'inferior' and 'detrimental to the Aryan race' was to be eliminated.


My understanding is that Germany targeted the Gypsies because they moved around a lot and thus did not live settled lives- meaning they were "work shy" and difficult to monitor. I am not aware of any specific German claim that the Gypsies were racial inferiors.

Quote:
I don't think "only an experimental use" is a fitting description.


Euthanasia of some sort or another was already in use in Germany's concentration camps in 1933 when Walter Schultze, Bavarian Commissioner of Health announced this fact at the opening of the state medical academy in Munich.

Originally the Germans used starvation, lethal injection and carbon dioxide for its euthanasia program. Zyklon B was already in use as a fumigant in outdoor areas. It was only after a German (SS I think) passed out after being accidentally exposed to it in a confined space that the Germans thought to use it for gas chambers. The Germans first used Zyklon B to kill people on September 3, 1941 when it was used on Russian POWs and Jews at Auschwitz.

Quote:
T-4 was systematically executed all across the Reich. The motivation was, again, to create a superior race by eliminating all other elements.


T-4 was directed at the chronically ill, mentally handicapped and physically disabled among the German population. Its purpose wasn't genocide.

Quote:
T-4 officially ended in 1941 (partially because large areas were seen as 'cleared',


I believe you may be thinking of Judenfrei, but T-4 was not directed specifically at the Jews.

Quote:
"In Nazi usage, "euthanasia" referred to the systematic killing of those Germans whom the Nazis deemed "unworthy of life" because of alleged genetic diseases or defects.


Jews, Gypsies et cetera were not considered to be German by Nazi law.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:46 am
snood wrote:
Likewise, if Jewish people run a disproportionate amount of the entertainment industry, I wouldn't think it crazy or bigotted to observe that their perspective and culture could certainly influence that world.


Can you give us some examples of how Jewish culture has been stamped on the entertainment industry? Is this culture really Jewish culture or is it just liberal culture?
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:50 am
nimh wrote:
Yet the term Holocaust is also used on the same page:

"The Porajmos (also Porrajmos), literally Devouring, is a term coined by the Romani (Gypsy) people to describe attempts by the regime in Nazi Germany to exterminate most of the Romani peoples of Europe during The Holocaust."


If everything the Germans did were all part of the same event, i.e., The Holocaust, why do the Gypsies need their own term for what the Germans did to them?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:24 am
flaja wrote:
My understanding is that Germany targeted the Gypsies because they moved around a lot and thus did not live settled lives- meaning they were "work shy" and difficult to monitor. I am not aware of any specific German claim that the Gypsies were racial inferiors.


Quote:
Zu den artfremden Rassen gehären alle anderen Rassen, das sind in Europa außer den Juden regelmäßig nur die Zigeuner

Runderlaß des Reichsministers des Innern vom 3.1.1936 über die Durchführung des Blutschutzgesetzes

flaja wrote:
Euthanasia of some sort or another was already in use in Germany's concentration camps in 1933 when Walter Schultze, Bavarian Commissioner of Health announced this fact at the opening of the state medical academy in Munich.

Between 1933 and 1934 there were four 'concentration camps' in Germany:
Bad Sulza, Benninghausen, Breitenau and Brandenburg a.d.H.

Until 1934, 3 persons died in Bretenau (9.772 in 1940 [Aktion T4], none in the others. (They were used for three months [Benninghausen], 6 months [Brandenburg 1933/34], 9 months [Breitenau, 1933/34 and again from 1940 -45], 4 years [Bad Sulza, until 1937].

What do you mean with "state medical academy in Munich"?
Schultze became in 1936/7 "Reichsdozentenführer" and in this function may have opened some acedemies.

flaja wrote:
Jews, Gypsies et cetera were not considered to be German by Nazi law.
While most 'gypsies' were indeed considered to be 'stateless', German Jews were of course German citizens but since 1935 not "Reichsbürger".
"et cetera" were Germans, too, mostly 'Reichsbürger' as well.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 12:48 pm
flaja wrote:
My understanding is that Germany targeted the Gypsies because they moved around a lot and thus did not live settled lives- meaning they were "work shy" and difficult to monitor. I am not aware of any specific German claim that the Gypsies were racial inferiors.


Gypsies were already discriminated against before the Third Reich. During the Weimar Republic, for example, the Amt für Zigeunerangelegenheiten (Office of Gyspy Issues) was renamed Zentrale zur Bekämpfung des Zigeunerunwesens (Central Office to Combat the Gypsy Mischief) in 1929. This office authorised the police to have Gypsies do forced labour if they were found without employment.

However, all the existing prejudices, the discrimination against Gypsies and the existing laws were melted into one theory of 'racial inferiority' by the Nazis. In a publication by the Deutsche Ärztebund in 1938, it read like this:

Quote:
"Ratten, Wanzen und Flöhe sind auch Naturerscheinungen, ebenso wie die Juden und Zigeuner ... Alles Leben ist Kampf. Wir müssen deshalb alle diese Schädlinge biologisch allmählich ausmerzen, und das heißt heute, die Lebensbedingungen durch Sicherheitsverwahrung und Sterilisationsgesetze so grundlegend ändern, dass alle diese Feinde unseres Volkes langsam aber sicher zur Ausmerze gelangen."

(Rats, bugs and fleas are natural phenomena, too, just like Jews and Gypsies ... All of life is a struggle. We therefore have to biologically expunge all that vermin step by step, which means today to radically change living conditions through preventive detention and sterilisation laws, so that all those enemies of our people will slowly but surely be eliminated.)


In 1938, the Rassenhygienische Forschungsstelle was charged by Heinrich Himmler with recording all Gypsies in the territory of the Reich. In cooperation with the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, 24,000 racial profiles of Sinti and Roma were created to document the racial inferiority of Gypsies.

Quote:
"Ziel der staatlichen Maßnahmen zur Wahrung der Einheit der deutschen Volksgemeinschaft [muss] sein einmal die rassische Absonderung des Zigeunertums vom deutschen Volkstum, sodann die Verhinderung der Rassenvermischung... Der Erlass des Reichsführers SS am 8.12.1938 ordnet zunächst die Erfassung der im Reichsgebiet lebenden Personen an, die bei der Bevölkerung als Zigeuner gelten... Wenn einwandfrei feststeht, wie viel Zigeuner es im Reichsgebiet gibt, können weitere Maßnahmen ergriffen werden."

(The goal of governmental measures to protect the unity of the German national community [must] be the racial isolation of the Gypsydom from the German people, and then the prevention of racial mixture... The decree of the Reichsführer SS from December 12th 1938 orders the registering of all persons living in the Reich territory who are regarded as Gypsies by the population... Once it is established without doubt how many Gypsies are living within the Reich territory, further measures can be taken.)


To illustrate the theory of the racial inferiority of Gypsies, models of Sinti and Roma heads were cast. Mouth, pharynx, nostrils, the root of the nose, eye colour, eye brows, ears, neck, throat and hands were measured and thousands of photos taken to 'scientifically' substantiate the claims of inferiority.



flaja wrote:
T-4 was directed at the chronically ill, mentally handicapped and physically disabled among the German population. Its purpose wasn't genocide.


It's purpose was to 'eliminate detrimental elements from the national community'. It merely wasn't genocide (in that sense of the word) because it wasn't directed at a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

However, the goal of the T-4 mass killings was identical to that of the mass killings of Jews and Gypsies.



flaja wrote:
old europe wrote:
T-4 officially ended in 1941 (partially because large areas were seen as 'cleared',


I believe you may be thinking of Judenfrei, but T-4 was not directed specifically at the Jews.


No, I'm not thinking of judenfrei. In 1941, the asylums and sanatoria of large areas were empty. Either because the inhabitants had been killed in T-4, or because relatives had them either transferred to private clinics where the state-run T-4 did not extend or withdrawn them to take care of them at home.

In that sense, the goals of T-4 were partially achieved.



flaja wrote:
old europe wrote:
"In Nazi usage, "euthanasia" referred to the systematic killing of those Germans whom the Nazis deemed "unworthy of life" because of alleged genetic diseases or defects.


Jews, Gypsies et cetera were not considered to be German by Nazi law.


As you noted before, the T-4 programme was not specifically directed at Jews or Gypsies. The systematic killing of "unworthy life" in T-4 (and the ongoing euthanasia programmes until 1945) was directed at Germans.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 01:41 pm
[quote="Walter Hinteler]Between 1933 and 1934 there were four 'concentration camps' in Germany: Bad Sulza, Benninghausen, Breitenau and Brandenburg a.d.H.[/quote]

You left out Dachau, which opened in March 1833.

Quote:
Until 1934, 3 persons died in Bretenau (9.772 in 1940 [Aktion T4], none in the others.


Are you excluding deaths that resulted from beatings, disease, starvation, etcetera?

Quote:
What do you mean with "state medical academy in Munich"?
Schultze became in 1936/7 "Reichsdozentenführer" and in this function may have opened some acedemies.
flaja wrote:
Jews, Gypsies et cetera were not considered to be German by Nazi law.
While most 'gypsies' were indeed considered to be 'stateless', German Jews were of course German citizens but since 1935 not "Reichsbürger".
"et cetera" were Germans, too, mostly 'Reichsbürger' as well.[/quote]

According to the Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935, as supplemented by a decree of November 14, 1935, Jews were no longer citizens of Germany because they were not of German blood. After that date there were no German Jews, only Jews living in Germany.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 01:47 pm
old europe wrote:
As you noted before, the T-4 programme was not specifically directed at Jews or Gypsies. The systematic killing of "unworthy life" in T-4 (and the ongoing euthanasia programmes until 1945) was directed at Germans.


Meaning that T-4 should be included among the Germans' crimes, but not included expressly in the Holocaust. The figure that I have seen quoted for the victims of T-4 is no more than a quarter of a million people. This is small in comparison to the 6,000,000 Jews that died in the Holocaust or the 50-60 million people and Germans that died as a result of WWII.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 02:13 pm
Sorry, I really missed Dachau.

I didn't leave out "deaths that resulted from beatings, disease, starvation, etcetera" but referred to the minimum but backed-up number.

flaja wrote:
According to the Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935, as supplemented by a decree of November 14, 1935, Jews were no longer citizens of Germany because they were not of German blood. After that date there were no German Jews, only Jews living in Germany.


That's wrong - and partly right.
Jews were no "Reich's citizens' (§2), but still German nationals (§1).


Quote:
§ 1

(1) Staatsangehöriger ist, wer dem Schutzverband des Deutschen Reichs angehört und ihm dafür besonders verpflichtet ist.
(2) Die Staatsangehörigkeit wird nach den Vorschriften des Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetzes erworben.

§ 2

(1) Reichsbürger ist nur der Staatsangehörige deutschen oder artverwandten Blutes, der durch sein Verhalten beweist, daß er gewillt ist, in Treue dem Deutschen Volk und Reich zu dienen.
(2) Das Reichsbürgerrecht wird durch Verleihung des Reichsbürgerbriefes erworben.
(3) Der Reichsbrüger ist der alleinige Träger der vollen politischen Rechte nach Maßgabe der Gesetzes.

Reichsgesetzblatt 1935 I, S. 1146
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 02:52 pm
flaja wrote:
old europe wrote:
As you noted before, the T-4 programme was not specifically directed at Jews or Gypsies. The systematic killing of "unworthy life" in T-4 (and the ongoing euthanasia programmes until 1945) was directed at Germans.


Meaning that T-4 should be included among the Germans' crimes, but not included expressly in the Holocaust. The figure that I have seen quoted for the victims of T-4 is no more than a quarter of a million people. This is small in comparison to the 6,000,000 Jews that died in the Holocaust or the 50-60 million people and Germans that died as a result of WWII.



It's true that in the sense that the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide uses the term "genocide", T-4 was not a genocide programme. Then of course you'd also have to exclude groups like gay men or political dissidents. The systematic mass killings of Gypsies, on the other hand, meet the definition of a genocide.

However, the ideological motivation behind T-4, the "Final Solution" and the "Zigeunerfrage" was exactly the same. The same methods were used to kill T-4 victims and people rounded up in the concentration camps. T-4 victims were even - like people to be killed in the death camps - transported to central installations where they could be killed more effectively.

I'm a bit torn here. I can kind of see the point why one would want to use the term "Holocaust" to merely refer to the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis. Jews were very specifically targeted, and the "Final Solution" was really the core of the Nazi mass killings.
Then again, all the other victims 'eliminated' in very much the same way and for very much the same ideological reasons seem to get left out.
I find it disturbing that the T-4 victims and especially the Roma and Sinti are merely treated as a footnote. They get some recognition recently, but saying that they were not really killed in the Holocaust, that they were not really persecuted or killed for 'racial' reasons seems to do a lot of injustice.

If the fact that they were persecuted like the Jews, that it was a genocide for racial and ideological reasons gets more exposure, if the public gets aware of the genocide on the Sinti and Roma and maybe even a term like "Porajmos" makes it into public discussion, I'd find it okay to exclude them from the term "Holocaust".

However, I absolutely disagree with the point that T-4 victims or Gypsies should be excluded from the term "Holocaust" because only some hundreds of thousands of them were killed.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:14 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I didn't leave out "deaths that resulted from beatings, disease, starvation, etcetera" but referred to the minimum but backed-up number.


It sounds as if you are saying that Germany's concentration camps didn't kill more than 3 people until 1934. Considering the ferocity of their initial attacks on the Left in 1933, I'd find it hard to believe that the death toll was only 3,000, let alone 3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-4_Euthanasia_Program

It is wrong to consider anything before 1939 as T-4 since that German effort did not officially exist until 1939 and it was ended officially in 1941. The count for the quarter million dead noted by historians only includes these years.

Quote:
That's wrong - and partly right.
Jews were no "Reich's citizens' (§2), but still German nationals (§1).


http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/nurmlaw2.html

Quote:
The Nuremberg Laws on Citizenship and Race:
September 15, 1935

The Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935

THE REICHSTAG HAS ADOPTED by unanimous vote the following law
which is herewith promulgated.
ARTICLE 1. (1) A subject of the state is one who belongs to the
protective union of the German Reich, and who, therefore, has
specific obligations to the Reich.
(2) The status of subject is to be acquired in accordance with
the provisions of the Reich and the state Citizenship Law.

A subject does not automatically mean a national. The people of France were subjects of Germany after June 1940, but they were not German nationals or German citizens because they were not of German blood.
Quote:
First Supplementary Decree of November 14, 1935
ARTICLE 4. (1) A Jew cannot be a citizen of the Reich. He
cannot exercise the right to vote; he cannot hold public office.


My understanding is that T-4 was directed at ethnic Germans; it was effort to purify the master race. Since people like Jews and Gypsies were not ethnic Germans and thus not eligible for inclusion in Hitler's master race, I doubt that T-4 was directed at them to any great extent.
0 Replies
 
 

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