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Why do we always hear six million for the Holocaust?

 
 
cello
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 05:52 am
Littlek, I posted the link in answer to your question because I saw the names of some organizations there, and you only asked me for one. Laughing

Foofie, I saw quickly the reference but I don't understand what means Zionism and anti-Goyism. Is it something against the Jews? What is a WASP, by the way? As I said, I just heard about these things (Jews control) and I was trying to find an answer to the question of this topic. It would be interesting to learn about who owns the big media just out of curiosity. I agree with what you said about the Jews risking capital. As a matter of fact, the Jews that I know are hard working and smart, and they deserve to have what they own.

Maybe people believe popular myths because it is easier to discriminate?

Dagmaraka, I was not even aware that there were 6 million non-Jew people who died, about the Roma holocaust and the gays, I just learned in this topic. I knew there were a lot of people of different nationalities in Europe who were killed, but did not know the extent. Even now, I don't know why the other Europeans were killed.
0 Replies
 
cello
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 09:00 am
What you said, Walter, is interesting (I just found out your post). That Americans tend to be interested only in what concerns them is obvious to me if I look at the coverage of the Olympic Games. Very Happy In Canada also, coverage of world events is minimal.

However, that does not explain to me why we hear often about the Holocaust of the Jews since it happened in Europe and not in the US. I don't know if other people in North America who don't have relatives or friends in Europe know much about the killings of non-Jew people during WWII.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 09:52 am
cello wrote:
Littlek, I posted the link in answer to your question because I saw the names of some organizations there, and you only asked me for one. Laughing

Foofie, I saw quickly the reference but I don't understand what means Zionism and anti-Goyism. Is it something against the Jews? What is a WASP, by the way? As I said, I just heard about these things (Jews control) and I was trying to find an answer to the question of this topic. It would be interesting to learn about who owns the big media just out of curiosity. I agree with what you said about the Jews risking capital. As a matter of fact, the Jews that I know are hard working and smart, and they deserve to have what they own.

Maybe people believe popular myths because it is easier to discriminate?

Dagmaraka, I was not even aware that there were 6 million non-Jew people who died, about the Roma holocaust and the gays, I just learned in this topic. I knew there were a lot of people of different nationalities in Europe who were killed, but did not know the extent. Even now, I don't know why the other Europeans were killed.


Succinctly:

Zionism, in my definition, is the belief that Jews should have a Homeland. That Homeland today is Israel.

Anti-Goyism is a term I never heard; however, since "goy" means Gentile in Yiddish, it must mean anti-Gentile?

A WASP refers to White Anglo Saxon Protestant. Referring most of the time to those descendants of the early settlers of this country who came from the UK. If you're not aware, a WASP that is college educated is considered part of an upper social class in this country. Perhaps, even without any higher education. This is my opinion. Some may disagree. Again, in my opinion, if this country's history was a western movie, the WASP's are the good guys. Not that everyone else are the bad guys; just that the WASP's are the good guys - John Wayne types, Marshall Dillon (tv western, Gunsmoke), the Cartwrights (tv western, Bonanza). The one's that are supposed to epitomize the positive stereotypes of Americans.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:15 am
cello wrote:
What you said, Walter, is interesting (I just found out your post). That Americans tend to be interested only in what concerns them is obvious to me if I look at the coverage of the Olympic Games. Very Happy In Canada also, coverage of world events is minimal.

However, that does not explain to me why we hear often about the Holocaust of the Jews since it happened in Europe and not in the US. I don't know if other people in North America who don't have relatives or friends in Europe know much about the killings of non-Jew people during WWII.


By the way, the word "Jew" has been used so often in past decades as an epithet, today in the U.S., politically correct individuals refer to Jews as "Jewish."

While Canadians have a link to Mother England, they are very much part of this New World hemisphere, and I would guess, like the U.S., are focussed on what's going on nearby (Canada and the U.S.).

Jews in the U.S. possibly have a longer memory about the Holocaust than other groups, since the Holocaust murdered one-thrid of the world's Jews. While many countries lost more people (Russia, 20 million, which included two million Jews out of that six million Jewish Holocaust number), it wasn't a 33% figure. Not that that should give them any preference for Holocaust media coverage. I believe more groups should start remembering their respective Holocaust tragedy (it may not be a good time for that, since the European Union is trying to have all the countries "play nice" like good children in kindergarten, I believe).

My theory is that Jews don't mind admitting that they were hated/despised, to the point of the Final Solution being a "viable solution." But, I believe, most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.

Why are Jews willing to air their being victims, while other groups seem less inclined? I think Jews have a 4,000 year "learning curve" for being pariahs. I believe many other groups don't have that learning curve, and would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt; however, today American Blacks, I believe, also are willing to confront racism in all its forms.

P.S. The other day I saw a bird, that nests in Canada for the summer, already flying south to winter in South America. Does this mean Canada will get an early winter?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:37 am
Foofie wrote:
Jews in the U.S. possibly have a longer memory about the Holocaust than other groups, since the Holocaust murdered one-thrid of the world's Jews. While many countries lost more people (Russia, 20 million, which included two million Jews out of that six million Jewish Holocaust number), it wasn't a 33% figure.


Ehem, you say that 2 million killed Russian Jews weren't a 33% figure.
And that "Jews in the U.S. have a longer longer memory about the Holocaust than other groups, since the Holocaust murdered one-thrid of the world's Jews".

Why, do you think, Jews of of other nationalities don't have such a memory, following your above opinion.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:37 am
dagmaraka wrote:
Foofie wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
it was a sarcastic comment. and i don't need permissions to rise or otherwise.


Then don't blapheme. Some of us could be atheists.


well if you were indeed an atheist, you wouldn't give a damn about blasphemy.

i'm a heathen. was born one, will die one. got anything better up your sleeve?


I don't want to offend religious people. I can be sure they're the good guys. Have a lovely day, and please don't reply to this post.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:40 am
Foofie wrote:
...most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


You got this opinion from observing the literature, the related activities of those groups, their comments or ...?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Jews in the U.S. possibly have a longer memory about the Holocaust than other groups, since the Holocaust murdered one-thrid of the world's Jews. While many countries lost more people (Russia, 20 million, which included two million Jews out of that six million Jewish Holocaust number), it wasn't a 33% figure.


Ehem, you say that 2 million killed Russian Jews weren't a 33% figure.
And that "Jews in the U.S. have a longer longer memory about the Holocaust than other groups, since the Holocaust murdered one-thrid of the world's Jews".

Why, do you think, Jews of of other nationalities don't have such a memory, following your above opinion.


I thought I said that the six million Jewish Holocaust figure included two million Russian Jews. And the two million Russian Jews is part of the 20 million figure of Russians lost in WWII.

And the six million total Jewish Holocaust number reflects 33% of all the Jews in the world in the early 1940's.

I think non-U.S. Jews might not have such a public memory, because only in the U.S. (excluding Israel) can Jews feel the level of anti-Semitism is so low, there's no danger in publicly remembering the Holocaust. Perhaps, also in Germany, since Germany has, more than any other country, I believe, confronted their past in WWII. I think Germany has focussed on the Holocaust more than the U.S., and has funded that focus. Germany, I believe, more than other European countries has a good record on the willingness to face their past.

But, France still has a degree of anti-Semitism (I'm told). British Jews, I believe, know that the UK has its own WWII tragedies to remember, and don't want to listen to, what might be construed as a self-centered WWII selective memory.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 10:55 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:
...most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


You got this opinion from observing the literature, the related activities of those groups, their comments or ...?


From sociology. Most people like to think they belong to a great group of guys. It's just my opinion, backed up by observation, and reading.

Can we stop the interrogation?
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cello
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 12:12 pm
Thanks for the explanations, Foofie. Yeah, that's what they say when the birds are flying south. Although it was just one bird you saw. Maybe it is one which does not particularly like the cold and tries to get a head start. Laughing

With the weather disturbances we now have, even birds may make mistakes about the seasons, I guess.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 12:29 pm
Foofie wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:
...most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


You got this opinion from observing the literature, the related activities of those groups, their comments or ...?


From sociology. Most people like to think they belong to a great group of guys. It's just my opinion, backed up by observation, and reading.


It contradicts everything I know (and learnt) e.g. about the Sinti and Roma. (Between 25 and 50 percent of all European Roma were killed by the Nazis, scholarly estimates of deaths in the Sinti and Roma genocide range from 220,000 to 500,000.)
And they do remember what happened. Even if that contradicts what you know from sociology. And proves a kind of narrow choice literature you've read.

Foofie wrote:

Can we stop the interrogation?


Well, if you prefer to get misinterpreted, of course.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 02:44 pm
Foofie wrote:

My theory is that Jews don't mind admitting that they were hated/despised, to the point of the Final Solution being a "viable solution." But, I believe, most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


Well, I would counter that "many other groups" don't quite have the audience that Jews have. Also, I'd wager they don't have much to gain by continuing to remind others of their losses.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 02:50 pm
By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 08:17 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foofie wrote:
...most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


You got this opinion from observing the literature, the related activities of those groups, their comments or ...?


From sociology. Most people like to think they belong to a great group of guys. It's just my opinion, backed up by observation, and reading.


It contradicts everything I know (and learnt) e.g. about the Sinti and Roma. (Between 25 and 50 percent of all European Roma were killed by the Nazis, scholarly estimates of deaths in the Sinti and Roma genocide range from 220,000 to 500,000.)
And they do remember what happened. Even if that contradicts what you know from sociology. And proves a kind of narrow choice literature you've read.

Foofie wrote:

Can we stop the interrogation?


Well, if you prefer to get misinterpreted, of course.


I don't believe they teach school children world geography in the U.S., as well as they do in Europe. Similarly, what Europeans learn about European history might just be a very different focus than what the average student learns in the U.S.

So, students today in more than a few parts of the U.S. have the Holocaust as part of their history lessons. I don't know what goes on in other countries, relative to teaching the Holocaust? And, I know it sounds offensive, but I don't care. Europeans are not Americans. They have their history; Americans have their's.

American Jews are very much part of the "fabric" of the U.S. I can't believe that's the same in Europe. They may live in Europe, but don't get elected to many (any?) political offices. Don't tell be about Sarkozy; his grandfather was a Jew; he's not.

Since you know history, the U.S. saved Europe from its political excesses two times in the 20th century. And today many Europeans can just criticize the U.S.; I consider that ingratitude.

If you think I'm alienated from continental (non-British) Europeans because of the Holocaust, that's not true, I'm alienated from them because they still tend to be Eurocentric in their concerns (they're concerned about the Middle East; where do they get their oil from?), I believe. The Holocaust was just another example of Eurocentricism, since Jews were just considered non-Europeans (to be a European meant to be Christian; religion is not the criterion to be an American) that oddly wound up in Europe for two millenia. That's my opinion. If you don't agree with me, why are the Turkish guest workers in Germany not allowed to have citizenship, after living in Germany for two generations?

There's not even a word for Americans being Ameican centric. But, I am. I really am only interested in the U.S. and its neighbors. Probably this entire hemisphere. It ends there. Not even interested in Israel.

Oh yes, I try to accept the British eccentricities, compared to the U.S. (greater concern over one's social class, I believe). They have a great sense of humor (their use of the "understatment" is really unique to humor). And, they are the only true ally the U.S. has, I believe. We helped them in two world wars; they still show gratitude. Possibly, it's their valuing good manners?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 08:39 pm
dyslexia wrote:
By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.


Supposedly, disease that Europeans brought with them killed many Ameican Indians in North and South America is the 1500's and 1600's.

But yes, American Indians were killed in wars with the Europeans. Was there a way for the two civilizations to have co-existed? The European civilization believed in land ownership. This was not the way of the American Indians I thought . (I'm not using the term Native American, since some readers might think that just means someone born in the Americas. And the term First Nations is not known by non U.S. readers, I believe.)

You are aware that there are many Caucasian and Black Americans that know a grandparent or great-grandparent was an American Indian. Those people are not part of the 237,000 you mention, I believe.

The facts you point out above might be completely forgotten, or ignored, if millions of Mexicans, that are here without immigration papers, are allowed to become U.S. citizens. That's because the Mexicans coming to the U.S. to work are "Indios puros." What we see on the novellas on tv all seem to look like Europeans. So, if these undocumented Mexicans became U.S. citizens, I can envision that generation of American students would be seeing millions of people that are Americans, yet they state proudly they are Indians. Perhaps a little like the Russian Jews that emigrated recently to Germany (What Holocaust? There are Jews here.)
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cello
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 08:41 pm
Foofie, I find it strange that they teach the Holocaust as part of American history since it did not happen in the US to American citizens of that time.
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littlek
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 08:45 pm
They don't teach it as part of American History, they teach it as part of World History.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 08:51 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Foofie wrote:

My theory is that Jews don't mind admitting that they were hated/despised, to the point of the Final Solution being a "viable solution." But, I believe, most other groups would like to forget they were ever held in such contempt, as to be fodder for the Nazi killing machine.


Well, I would counter that "many other groups" don't quite have the audience that Jews have. Also, I'd wager they don't have much to gain by continuing to remind others of their losses.


My own opinion is, other groups that suffered from the Holocaust don't want to continue to remind the world of their victimization. I think that's a natural human reaction. Something akin to shame, I believe.

Many Jews like to continue to remind the world. I can't speak for anyone other than myself; I like to remind people, since few people feel comfortable discussing the topic. Perhaps, to some degree I unconsciously believe in the world's collective guilt. Actually, Europe's collective guilt, since I suspect there was more than a bit of initial glee over Hitler's efficiency, in many countries. The term in German is Schadenfreude, which means pleasure taken from someone else's misfortune.

If you've ever seen those still photos of the SS men roughly getting Jews onto the transports, to go to the camps, did you notice how one or more of the SS men are smiling?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 09:05 pm
cello wrote:
Foofie, I find it strange that they teach the Holocaust as part of American history since it did not happen in the US to American citizens of that time.


I am guessing it might fall into Social Studies, were many school systems teach about many cultures and their respective histories.

Each state in the U.S. oversees the educational system in that state. I can't claim every state teaches it. But, in the Northeast, I'd guess more than a few do, as part of the entire curriculum. It's not necessarily taught as part of WWII history.

It might come under some multi-cultural curriculum in those states that teach it.

Like students learn about the Irish Potato Famine, when learning about the great wave of Irish immigration to the U.S. around 1850. I think in many states, all groups are accomodated in the curriculum, as to their respective history, including before they came. Perhaps, this is part of what makes America so great (in my opinion).
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2007 09:09 pm
littlek wrote:
They don't teach it as part of American History, they teach it as part of World History.


Every state oversees its own educational system. What is done in your state may not be what is done in another state.

And your state surely teaches it well, since Mass. is a very progressive state.
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