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Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah'

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 07:03 am
Re: get you killed by other christians.
Joe Nation wrote:
Joe(Hear those Islamic voices shouting "Shame, shame! Stop!"? No. I didn't think so.)Nation


A list that goes on and on and on and on, page after page of Islamic voices saying "Shame, shame! Stop!":

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 07:24 am
Re: get you killed by other christians.
Joe Nation wrote:
Joe(Hear those Islamic voices shouting "Shame, shame! Stop!"? No. I didn't think so.)Nation


After July's foiled car bomb attacks in London and Glasgow - and again, this is just what you can find in a minute or two with the one quick Google search, a random little slice of all that's out there:

Quote:
Muslim leaders organise anti-terror rally

Muslims are organising a rally in Glasgow on Saturday to demonstrate a united front against terrorism and to quell fears of a backlash against Scotland's Islamic community. [..]

Mosques and Islamic organisations hope that the event, which will be held on July 7, the second anniversary of the fatal bombings in London, will demonstrate their resolve against terrorism. They are inviting everyone to take part, including faith leaders, churches, trade unionists and others in civic society under the title "Scotland United Against Terror". [..]

Osama Saeed, Scottish spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain, who is helping to organise the rally, said [..] "We have a simple equation facing us. We have the terrorists on one side, and the rest of Scotland against them on the other - whether they be Muslim, Christian, people of other faiths or none. [..]

In London, Muslim leaders echoed the messages of shared responsibility. Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, called on the faithful to help to "extinguish the fire" of radicalism within the Muslim community, as he condemned the failed attacks.

He said that the organisation would also hold a meeting in the capital on Saturday to discuss how they could work better with the police. Daud Abdullah, the council's deputy secretary general, [..] said: "We acknowledge there is radicalisation taking place in our community. This is a long-term problem. We are all affected, therefore we all have a shared responsibility to denounce radicalism.

"At the present time our concern is to denounce unequivocally what has happened."


Quote:
Muslims must help police more, leaders urge

[..] Declaring that "condemnation is not enough", leaders of the Muslim Council of Britain, which has 400 affiliate organisations, voiced its most robust message yet and appealed to all Muslims to work hand in hand with the police. [..]

Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, the MCB's secretary general, said the current crisis meant that issues of conflict between the government, police and Muslim communities - who have clashed in the past over anti-terrorist incidents and foreign policy - needed to be put to one side.

"When the house is on fire, the concern must be not to blame each other but to put the fire out. Our country is under threat level critical." He added: "Those who seek to deliberately kill or maim innocent people are the enemies of us all. There is no cause whatsoever that could possibly justify such barbarity."

He said the police and security services "deserve the fullest support and cooperation from each and every sector of our society, including all Muslims". [..] "It is our Islamic duty not only to utterly and totally condemn such evil actions but to provide all the necessary support to prevent such atrocities from taking place," said Dr Bari. [..]

The rallying call gained broad approval from Muslims shopping and trading amid the bustle of Whitechapel market in east London. "I think the MCB have got it absolutely right," said Abdul Ali, 30, as he tended his jewellery stall. "If I had information I would go to the police. The people killed in a terrorist attack could be my son or my sister."

A young woman in her 30s, her head covered, said: "We all know these people have nothing to do with Islam. They are extremists just like the BNP."


Quote:
Council and Muslim Leaders unite against terrorism and call to isolate extremists

Stoke-on-Trent City Council and leading members of the Muslim community have called on the exposure of any extremists identified in the community, following the recent terrorist attacks in Glasgow and London. [..]

The imams called for the rejection of all extremist groups and called on all to isolate and expose any extremists identified within the community.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Sep, 2007 12:37 pm
I know. I was having a bad moment.

Thank you, Nimh.

And what, do you think, will be the Muslim's world appraisal of Bin Laden's videotape, to be released this 9/11??

We will see, lined up on the BBC, CNN and al-Jazeera, a line of commentators, what will they say?

Joe(and whose voice will carry out on the street?)Nation
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 03:55 pm
Terrorism is bad no matter of form it takes--9/11, Hiroshima, Shock & Awe, etc., etc., etc.. All mass assisination of civilians is terrorism. And it is performed, as far as I know, in the names of God, Jesus, Allah*, etc. Potentially good people performing bad deeds in the name of symbols of Absolute Truth and Goodness.

* but so far as I know, not in the name of the Buddha.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 04:09 pm
Civilians, some participants, some not, and if you are not, does any power notice?

Obviously there are incredible pressures on any person/famiy.









Is there some reason, besides territory and resources, that anyone needs to rule past his or her fraction of space?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 04:15 pm
I'll answer myself, re power.

People who tend to be leaders (often if not always) start young and the flailing can catch followers.
I'm not against it all, just noticing.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 04:07 am
Allah is not a special name for the Muslim God, it just means "God" in Arabic.

Did you know that Arabic Christians call God "Allah"?

I don't see what's wrong with everyone calling God Allah, not that it's ever going to happen.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 04:25 am
Of course its not going to happen !

What is interesting is the social forces (a)which prompted this priest to propose it and (b) which cause it be resisted non-muslims.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 04:32 am
a) He's a pioneer.
b) Ignorance.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 04:45 am
Or...since "religion" is involved in matters of group and self identity.

(a) He thinks he can remove barriers with respect to our innate tendency to tribalism.

(b) The group protects its "self integrity" by saying " he must be joking".

Repeat of my earlier post
Quote:
I don't go for that "same God" concept. It's a an intellectual adjunct of that other elusive ideal "brotherly love". The name of the mythical supremo does matter to acolytes. Its part of the "word magic" involved in ritual incantation...particular versions of it are even proscribed or delimited (by Jews for example). The "imsh-allah psychology" permeates the social fabric of Arab society to the extent of reifying despotism and chauvinism.

Humans, like other primates are tribal, and their social cohesion is significantly mediated by idiolectical aspects of language use. The other primates seem to get by without language or such "gods" as that language might evoke.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 05:17 am
fresco wrote:

What is interesting is the social forces (a)which prompted this priest to propose it and (b) which cause it be resisted non-muslims.


ad a) which were exactly whose?
Did they force him to do what he previously tried to do, too? Or were it thisd time different groups, just choosing him because he seemed to be .... what, do you think?


How do you, Fresco, from your inside knowledge of the Catholic Church in The Netherlands judge the reactions of some other bishops and canons?
Forced as well? By what group?

You certainly know that he published "Festival der Bestuurskunde" already in 2006 (February 6, to be precise).
What social forces were behind that?

What social forces were behind what he published in 1996? Again the same?

And when he postalated earlier this year that no dialogue between Muslims and Christians was possible (in Saudi-Arabia) if they didn't allow to built Christian churches there .... same social forces?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 06:52 am
Hi Walter,

Yes, IMO same forces.

In the same way that I don't need to know the intricacies of different team sports in order to classify them as "substitute warfare" from a "social analysis" viewpoint, I equally don't need to know the nuances of "believers clubs" in order to see them as de facto competing social structures irrespective of their lip service to the principal of "universal love". I have no doubt the guy in question is well intentioned but as far as I am concerned participation in any form of organized religion amounts to prostitution of the intellect.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 09:49 am
aperson wrote:
Allah is not a special name for the Muslim God, it just means "God" in Arabic.

Did you know that Arabic Christians call God "Allah"?

I don't see what's wrong with everyone calling God Allah, not that it's ever going to happen.
Thank you for bringing that up.

After a small amount of research, I discovered Allah was at one time the name of the moon goddess, is that correct? Is it also the same as the generic 'elah'? It sounds linguistically related the Hebrew generic 'el'.

Very interesting and cause for further investigation, I would say.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 11:53 am
fresco wrote:
Yes, IMO same forces.


Okay, thanks.

I've been to s'Hortenbosch three times this year alone, and spoke there with a couple of local people.
From what I've learnt there, I got a different opinion - which on the other hand didn't oppose at all what I knew before about this bishop.
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tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 01:40 pm
elohim (hebrew, pl.)
eloh (hebrew)
allah (arabic)

yeah, just like capital-e-elohim can be the god of abraham, a particular god versus the literal hebrew meaning of "gods," capital-a-allah can imply islam instead of judaism.

it's still the same word and the same god, but "allah" is also the name for god that christians use (if they speak arabic,) the name "elohim" is not capitalized in ancient hebrew.

in ancient hebrew, nothing is capitalized. it's not the word, it's not the spelling, it's not the capitalization or punctuation, it's entirely an issue of context.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 02:13 pm
Of course, Hebrew 'el' is generic and was applied to false gods as well as to Jehovah.
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aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 03:38 pm
Yes, well I suppose, Fresco, that they don't worship the same God, because how can the same God give different messages and messengers? It is the same God in the sense that it comes from the same religious roots, but the teachings are different.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 04:34 pm
aperson,

"Similarity" and "difference" are entirely observer dependent. The question "is your God the same as mine" is even more vacuous than "is your perception of "red" the same as mine". What matters is consensual agreement or common functionality. In the case of "God" there is NO general agreement other than some vague simplistic concept of a "paternal creator" as insurance against the common fear of death and the possible insignificance of our existence. From there, the details are idiosyncratic and symbiotic with tribalism.
0 Replies
 
hankarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 05:22 pm
aperson wrote:
how can the same God give different messages and messengers?


Good point. This suggests that there may be more than one "God" and that there may be a power struggle going on behind the scenes. This idea should not be foreign to Christians, Muslims or Jews alike. It is evident from Genesis 3 onward in the Scriptures and in the Koran.
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tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 06:11 pm
fresco, there's a LOT more than that.

people steal gods. they dress them in native clothes. the romans did it to the greek gods, to the point where the names are even different, but interchangeable. it's no intellectual stretch that the same thing happened with judeo-christianity and islam, it's history-of-religion.
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