Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah'

muslim1 wrote:

I agree that it is preferable to use the word "Allah" instead of God.

Why do Muslims use the word "Allah" instead of the word "God": http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2651856

Call it what you will...it's still primitive superstition.

Bobo...that's a fine name for a chimera.

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It would be better if there was one name for the imaginary being, (I vote for using Elaine, it has a certain lyric to it, doesn't it?) The problem is there is not just one imaginary being, Christians don't have one, they have three and can't decide on whether to call one of the them either the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost.

The real problem is the believers don't know how many imaginary beings there are. Could be one, could be ten thousand, nobody knows, everybody guesses, some people get killed for guessing wrong or doubting the guesser's guesses.

Here's an idea. Decide that there aren't any imaginary beings to be named and then start acting your life as if the imaginary beings have no power over you or your fellow human beings. Guess what? They don't because they only do if you permit them to do so.[/u] That's some group of all powerful beings, huh? They only have power over your life if you allow them to have the power.

Wow, try to create a superhero with that kind of power and you won't sell any comic books, but the churchs are doing fine peddling such stuff!

Joe(It takes about a week, but your head clears. Really something.)Nation

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Muskens is a good man, but I think this idea of his was just silly.

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Joe Nation wrote:

It would be better if there was one name for the imaginary being, (I vote for using Elaine, it has a certain lyric to it, doesn't it?) The problem is there is not just one imaginary being, Christians don't have one, they have three and can't decide on whether to call one of the them either the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost.

The real problem is the believers don't know how many imaginary beings there are. Could be one, could be ten thousand, nobody knows, everybody guesses, some people get killed for guessing wrong or doubting the guesser's guesses.

Here's an idea. Decide that there aren't any imaginary beings to be named and then start acting your life as if the imaginary beings have no power over you or your fellow human beings. Guess what? They don't because they only do if you permit them to do so.[/u] That's some group of all powerful beings, huh? They only have power over your life if you allow them to have the power.

Wow, try to create a superhero with that kind of power and you won't sell any comic books, but the churchs are doing fine peddling such stuff!

Joe(It takes about a week, but your head clears. Really something.)Nation

a. Careful...whether the one is three, or the three are one, used to get you killed by other christians.

b. Does this mean I have to surrender my hopes about that leprechaun......and the tooth fairy won't come any more?

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D wrote:

Quote:

a. Careful...whether the one is three, or the three are one, used to get you killed by other christians.

b. Does this mean I have to surrender my hopes about that leprechaun......and the tooth fairy won't come any more?

a. I know. but I kind of like the way certain folks puff up as they try to explain the absurdity of the Triune God. I am also amused when followers of Christ profess shock at the excesses of today's various radical Islamic sects when for three hundred years they themselves (or their ancestors, I guess) rent Europe from stem to stern over such issues as whether or not grace existed in the soul or the heart, was Mary a virgin her whole life and how tall (or small) angels were.

b. Life could be a be duller, I agree. I no longer have a fear of dragons, all the angels on the head of my pin have flown and my unicorn has taken work at the local donut shop picking the hot ones out of the deepfry. As for you, look through your garden for leprechauns, but keep an eye out your window at midnight for signs of the be-an-si. (banshee).

Just to let you know, I think there are folds in the fabric of Nature that we do not fully comprehend, or it could be the nature of our brains to find voices in the murmurings of tree leaves.

Joe(shhhh, they say, sleep....dream...know.)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

D wrote:

Quote:
a. Careful...whether the one is three, or the three are one, used to get you killed by other christians.

b. Does this mean I have to surrender my hopes about that leprechaun......and the tooth fairy won't come any more?

a. I know. but I kind of like the way certain folks puff up as they try to explain the absurdity of the Triune God. I am also amused when followers of Christ profess shock at the excesses of today's various radical Islamic sects when for three hundred years they themselves (or their ancestors, I guess) rent Europe from stem to stern over such issues as whether or not grace existed in the soul or the heart, was Mary a virgin her whole life and how tall (or small) angels were.

b. Life could be a be duller, I agree. I no longer have a fear of dragons, all the angels on the head of my pin have flown and my unicorn has taken work at the local donut shop picking the hot ones out of the deepfry. As for you, look through your garden for leprechauns, but keep an eye out your window at midnight for signs of the be-an-si. (banshee).

Just to let you know, I think there are folds in the fabric of Nature that we do not fully comprehend, or it could be the nature of our brains to find voices in the murmurings of tree leaves.

Joe(shhhh, they say, sleep....dream...know.)Nation

Too true...also those early christians would have killed you depending upon whether you said "rent Europe from stem to stern" or "from stern to stem".

Who can forget the Big-Endian Heresy?

In the end, all these gods and allahs are but manifestations of oneself; and one's values, fears and phobias.

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I think I figured out why I want to use Elaine to name them all.

Think Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate in the church choir beating on the glass.

Joe(I'm being followed by gremlins)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

I think I figured out why I want to use Elaine to name them all.

Think Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate in the church choir beating on the glass.

Joe(I'm being followed by gremlins)Nation

You know, I was kind of thinking of opening a thread on just that kind of associative stuff....but decided it was too hard.

Still, I love noting, or backtracking, those kinds of drifts and journeys of thought, don't you?

Lol! You might have ended up with Wilma by that process....

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Or Stella.

Joe(we are drifting back in time)Nation

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Joe Nation wrote:

Or Stella.

Joe(we are drifting back in time)Nation

Stella's good.......

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May the Force be with you.

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This is the same idea as my "abolish Allah" thread, just in the opposite direction. (Me: Translate all Arabic uses of "Allah" as "God." This guy: Everyone use "Allah." Underlying message of both: It's the same god. Using a different name fosters a false sense of difference.)

Obviously the religions are different but many people seem not to realize the shared history and the many commonalities.

I don't think either proposal would actually work, but I share the guy's frustration and hope the discussion that results from his proposal is useful.

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What nimh wrote:

Muskens is a good man, but I think this idea of his was just silly.

:wink:

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Quote:

Obviously the religions are different but many people seem not to realize the shared history and the many commonalities.

Interesting that the Sunnis and Shiites are blowing up each others children over their "shared history and commonality".

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There was a lot of blowing up in Ireland too.

I'm not saying that recognizing that which is alike will in and of itself create peace and harmony. I'm not that naive. I'm just saying that a false dichotomy is set up by calling the Christian god "God" and the Muslim god "Allah." They're both the same god who spoke to Moses -- just that different religions think that the same god spoke to other people subsequently, too. (Jews don't think much of the idea that their God spoke to Jesus, but both religions call the god who spoke to Moses "God.")

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sozobe

Sorry, but I don't go for that "same God" concept. It's a an intellectual adjunct of that other elusive ideal "brotherly love". The name of the mythical supremo does matter to acolytes. Its part of the "word magic" involved in ritual incantation...particular versions of it are even proscribed or delimited (by Jews for example). The "imsh-allah psychology" permeates the social fabric of Arab society to the extent of reifying despotism and chauvinism.

Humans, like other primates are tribal, and their social cohesion is significantly mediated by idiolectical aspects of language use. The other primates seem to get by without language or such "gods" as that language might evoke,

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get you killed by other christians.
I think the majority of folks who claim to be Christians have difficulty remembering that Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and he then promptly healed the servants ear. Christianity and nationalism (a tenet of Baal worship) don't mix.

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Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah'
YHWH to LORD to Allah. What a record!

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Re: get you killed by other christians.

hankarin wrote:

I think the majority of folks who claim to be Christians have difficulty remembering that Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and he then promptly healed the servants ear. Christianity and nationalism (a tenet of Baal worship) don't mix.

Whereas no one told Muslims to put their swords, bombs or aircraft full of innocents away. Muslims are allowed to kill anyone whom they believe has insulted either Allah or his Prophet with impunity.

Soldiers of Christ have on occasion been ashamed or been shamed by the Church, but there is no shame in committing any act, including murder, as long as the individual Muslim, with or without a fatwa, considers the act to be in defense of Islam.

Hence the silence as the killings goes on.

Joe(Hear those Islamic voices shouting "Shame, shame! Stop!"? No. I didn't think so.)Nation

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Re: get you killed by other christians.

Joe Nation wrote:

Soldiers of Christ have on occasion been ashamed or been shamed by the Church, but there is no shame in committing any act, including murder, as long as the individual Muslim, with or without a fatwa, considers the act to be in defense of Islam.

Hence the silence as the killings goes on.

Joe(Hear those Islamic voices shouting "Shame, shame! Stop!"? No. I didn't think so.)Nation

Joe - what are you talking about?

I'm having a flashback to an earlier reply to Steve, a year or two ago:

------------------------------------------------------[quote="Steve 41oo"]What are these extremists doing within Islam if its a religion of peace and tolerance? Why are they not driven out, told they are not following the will of the Prophet...that they are positively un-Islamic [/quote] OK, because I'm an incorrigable nerd, I took at least the 5 minutes for a search for any post by myself with the word "fatwa" in it. That alone netted me this post [..]: [quote="nimh"]Of course there are extremist preachers [but in] "mainstream" Islam, [..] the concept of religious murder as a shortcut to heaven is not accepted, or not accepted anymore. That's how there came to be a bunch of fatwas proclaimed by mainstream clergy against [..] suicide bombers of the London type ([b][URL=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1472315#1472315]here's[/URL][/b] some examples and [b][URL=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1487399#1487399]here's[/URL][/b] another one).[/quote] Now if you followed those links [..], you found these things below as well. And mind you, all the below [i]itself [/i]was just what I could find within 10 minutes with Google. So what, then [..] is this talk about how you never hear Muslim leaders [..] tell these extremists that "they are not following the will of the Prophet...that they are positively un-Islamic"? [quote="Lord Ellpus"]There you go, Finn........some fatwas for you. http://wikiproxy.whitelabel.org/index.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm[/quote] [quote="nimh"]Thank you Lord, thats one: [URL=http://wikiproxy.whitelabel.org/index.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm][b]UK Muslims issue bombings fatwa[/b][/URL] Here's a bunch more: [b][URL=http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0B6DDA5C-E929-45A8-8D0C-94EB39DB7E45.htm]Spanish Muslims issue Bin Ladin fatwa[/URL][/b] [quote]Sunday 13 March 2005 [b]Spain's leading Islamic body has issued a religious order declaring Usama bin Ladin to have forsaken Islam by backing attacks such as the Madrid train bombings a year ago. The Islamic Commission of Spain timed its fatwa on Friday to coincide with the first anniversary of the attacks[/b], which killed 191 people and were claimed in the name of al-Qaida in Europe. [..] "We declare ... that Usama bin Ladin and his al-Qaida organisation, responsible for the horrendous crimes against innocent people who were despicably murdered in the 11 March terrorist attack in Madrid, are outside the parameters of Islam," the commission said.[/quote] [b][URL=http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/09/20/15781.html]RUSSIAN MUSLIM LEADER CALLS AFGHAN ULAMAS TO EXTRADITE BIN LADEN[/URL][/b] [quote]2001-09-20 The Afghan ulamas ought to have long ago expelled Osama bin Laden from the country, Talgat Tadjuddin, High Mufti of the Russian Muslims, said to newsmen. A man who advises to kill cannot be God's counsellor, however much he may quote the Koran, and he will bring nothing but evil to the country which gives him shelter, stressed the Mufti as he called to "punish evil".[/quote] [b][URL=http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml]Prominent Muslim Cleric Denounces bin Laden[/URL][/b] [quote]Thursday, Oct. 18, 2001 ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - A prominent Muslim cleric today denounced terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden and urged Afghanistan's Taliban rulers not to risk thousands of lives for him. "Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for," said Tahirul Qadri, who heads the Pakistani Awami Tehrik Party. Qadri, who has thousands of followers in Pakistan and abroad, also criticized the Taliban for sheltering bin Laden and urged the Muslims to "see the difference between jihad and acts of terrorism." [..] "Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad," Qadri said, and "those who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk." [..] the Taliban had no justification for continuing to protect bin Laden. Why protect him? Is he a saint or a prophet? He is a man who himself has admitted arranging car-bomb attacks on U.S. embassies. He is no saint."[/quote] [b][URL=http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cacheUJ:www.chaplain.navy.mil/Attachments/SeekingMeaning_Grand_Imam.pdf+Tantawi++Bin+Laden+James+Reston&hl=en]A Top Sunni Cleric on the Use, and Misuse, of Islam[/URL][/b] [quote]Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the grand imam of Egypt's al-Azhar mosque and the most widely respected and influential moral voice for Sunni Islam [..] scoffed when I read him the 1998 call to arms that bin Laden called his fatwa: "We . . . with God's help . . . call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill Americans and plunder their money." "Osama bin Laden is no specialist in religious affairs," the grand imam quipped, to the delight of the imams seated to his left. And then he added: "Islamic law banishes anyone who issues an untrue fatwa." About the references in the hijackers' documents that they were martyrs and would achieve paradise, Tantawi was equally contemptuous. "They are not martyrs but aggressors," he said. "They will not achieve paradise, but will receive severe punishment for their aggression." In Islam, he noted, there is an exact equivalent of Moses's commandant against killing. "Whoever shall kill a man or a believer without right," said the grand imam, "the punishment is hell forever. Allah will be angry with himand give him a great punishment." Especially ugly, Tantawi said, is the criminal who murders by surprise, "from the back," because "it is against morality and good honor." [/quote] [b][URL=http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/bin_laden.html]Bin Laden Stirs Struggle on Meaning of Jihad[/URL][/b] [quote][Even] many of Islam's most militant theologians now rebuke Mr. bin Laden [..]. From Cairo, Beirut and Tehran, and a dozen other centers of fervent Islamic belief, pioneers of Mr. bin Laden's kind of jihad ?- violent, anti- Western, above all anti-American and anti-Israeli ?- have called him a coward and an enemy of Islam. No example is starker than that of Sheik Muhammad Hussain Fadlallah, spiritual leader of Hezbollah, the Lebanon-based Party of God, for 25 years a scourge of Israel and the United States with its suicide bombings and other terror attacks in Lebanon and Israel. [..] But Sheik Fadlallah, now 66, has been relentless in his condemnation of the attacks in America. He preaches that they were "not compatible with Shariah law," the Koranic legal code, nor with the Islamic concept of jihad, and that the perpetrators were not martyrs as Mr. bin Laden has claimed, but "merely suicides," because they killed innocent civilians, and in a distant land, America. In an interview with a Beirut newspaper, Al Safir, Sheik Fadlallah again accused Mr. bin Laden of having ignored Koranic texts. "There is no concept of jihad as aggressive combat," he said, quoting verses of the Koran that Islamic theologians have argued over for centuries. In misreading these texts, he said, Mr. bin Laden had relied on "personal psychological needs," including a "tribal urge for revenge." An Egyptian-born theologian, Sheik Yusuf Abdullah al-Qaradawi, with a history of anti-American militancy even longer than Sheik Fadlallah's, expresses a similar view. From his base in the Persian Gulf state of Qatar, the 75-year-old sheik has issued Islamic fatwas, or decrees, on issues like the need for Muslims to boycott McDonald's restaurants, and on husbands' right to beat their wives as long as they do not draw blood. But on the Sept. 11 attacks, he has used language similar to that of Mr. Bush and other American politicians. "Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack on innocent human beings a grave sin," said. "Even in times of war, Muslims are not allowed to kill anybody save the one who is engaged in face-to-face confrontation with them. "Killing hundreds of helpless civilians," he added, "is a heinous crime in Islam."[/quote] [b][URL=http://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm]Qaradawi Rejects Al-Qaeda's Killing of Innocents[/URL][/b] [quote]Prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi has condemned Al-Qaeda for their fuel tanker suicide bombing of a centuries-old Jewish synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba in April 2002. [..] Dr. Al Qaradawi said that in Islam it is not permissible to attack places of worship such as churches and synagogues or attack men of religion, even in a state of war. "Civilians, such as the German tourists, should not be killed, or kept as hostages. Jews, not in conflict with Muslims, must not be killed either. Anyone who commits these crimes is punishable by Islamic Sharia and have committed the sin of killing a soul which God has prohibited to kill and of spreading corruption on earth," said Dr. Al Qaradawi. [/quote] [b][URL=http://www.usembassyjakarta.org/lawmaker.html]GRAND IMAM OF EGYPT DENOUNCES TERRORISM [/URL][/b] [quote]House of Representatives October 31, 2001 Mr. [JOSEPH] PITTS [Republican of Pennsylvania]: [..] Just a few days ago, the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar, the highest and most respected Islamic authority in the world, who resides in Egypt, also made this clear. The Grand Imam said that the Koran specifically forbids the kinds of things the Taliban and al-Qaida are guilty of. He said the jihad Usama bin Laden has called for against America is invalid and not binding on Muslims. He said that "Islam rejects all of these acts." He called terrorism un-Islamic. In fact, he says, "Killing innocent civilians is a horrific, hideous act that no religion can approve." [..][/quote][/quote] [quote="nimh"]Want more? See this handy overview: [b][URL=http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php]Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks[/URL][/b][/quote] [quote="nimh"]Last week I linked in a scope of [url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1472315#1472315][b]fatwas and other Muslim clerical condemnations[/b][/url] of terror. Now, add another one. This is translated from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. I´m sure (or perhaps I´m not...) that there is enough coverage in US media as well? [..] [quote][size=13][b]American Fatwa against Terrorism[/b][/size] WASHINGTON. 29 July. A council of 18 prestigious sunnite and shiite jurists and scientists from the US and Canada on Thursday night published an Islamic legal judgement (Fatwa), in which every form of terrorism and the use of violence against civilians is condemned. Muslim jurists and associations in Europe have recently published similar fatwas. The fatwa, which was presented at a press conference in Washington by the President of the North-American islamic law council (Fiqh Council), Muzammil Siddiqi, and will be read out during the important Friday prayer in many mosques in North-America, amongst other things says: "Every act of terrorism that targets civilians is forbidden in Islam. It is forbidden to a Muslim to involve himself with or support persons or groups that commit terror attacks or acts of violence." Whoever attacks the life and property of civilians through suicide attacks or other forms of violence "is a criminal and not a martyr". Moreover, the Fatwa lays down that "it is the religious and civic duty of a Muslim to cooperate with the authorities to protect the lives of civilians". The fatwa is supported by the main Muslim organisations in North-America. Furthermore, the Council of American-Islamic Relations [the same that has been vilified by American conservatives-nimh] has started a campaign with radio and TV messages under the title "Not in the name of Islam", in which it is confirmed that Islam forbids terrorism. Whoever commits such acts of violence in the name of Islam, betrays his religion, the messages state. [..][/quote][/quote] This is what I mean. It's [b]there[/b]. You've even been pointed it out before, here [..]. So if you're still continuing saying anyway that you just "can't hear" Muslims saying these things, then, I'm sorry, but I must assume that that is indeed the problem - you cant hear it. Sorry - I do realise I must sound terribly snotty when I say that. But mostly it's just fatigue. Time after time someone comes up with this "why dont ordinary Muslims speak up? Why dont mainstream Muslim leaders speak up?", and you know - you answer them that they [i]do[/i], you bring them examples, but it seems to just slide off the argument like water from a duck's back. And a year later they're saying it again, or someone new is - "Why dont they speak up?". :? -----------------------------------------------------

FWIW, after the recent aborted terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow, again many Muslim leaders spoke up, and spoke up sharply, and this was covered in the news media. Those Islamic voices shouting "Shame, shame! Stop!", they were there, again. For those who want to hear them.

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Roman Catholic Bishop Wants Everyone to Call God 'Allah'

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