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Breaking a vow

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 01:19 pm
interesting missing post innit?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 01:21 pm
Well you know the overly zealous Christians, dys.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 01:30 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
You're pissed off more often anyways, so nothing to worry here. Razz

I do as I please, Chai - always have, always will.



I'm hardly ever pissed off jane, that's just the way you like to see it. That way, you can keep feeling superior...

You do what you like.

baddog does what he likes

I do what I like.

Ditto for Diane.

The difference with you is that you want everyone to do what you like too.

As much as you'd like to think it, you don't speak for the world jane.

Personally, if bad dog asked me those questions, I'd have no problems answering them. I have no idea what Diane would like to do, since I'm not her....but neither are you.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 01:50 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
As to appropriateness: It is clear that you feel it is completely appropriate to cheat and divorce on a whim - we all get that.


Ah, here you are again insinuating something I have never said. You
will not find any statement from me having said such nonsense.

But as dyslexia said already, I have to agree with him.


Where did my post go? That's twice this week!

At any rate; I retract and apologize for my statement above. In that regard - I was thinking of another member and my late-in-the-week attempt at multi-tasking failed miserably.

However, please answer my remaining questions from that post. In case you missed them:

Quote:
As to me being an insensitive fool: I conclude that all of us are guilty of that at times. However I am not on this occasion. Diane clearly implied that her sons were not harmed by her choices. I am curious as to what the conversation was like that led her to this conclusion. Surely, she would not speak for her grown sons and would show them the respect they deserve by having this conversation...

And speaking of insensitivity; please share your thoughts on how Diane's ex most likely felt upon gaining knowledge of the affair (at 60-something years old). Imagine starting over w/o the person you've been with for 34 years after being blind-sided by an affair and divorce. [Like I mentioned - you've only heard Diane's side.] Let us hear from your sensitive (or insensitive) side concerning Mr. Ex!
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 02:09 pm
I also feel those questions are a little blunt and invasive for a public forum, not to mention in bad taste, but agree that Diane is quite capable of fielding or answering them herself.

Just because a person shares something doesn't mean the whole thing is up for a minute investigation. Chai has shared personal information (on one topic in particular) and clearly stated she didn't want to get into the intimate details -- thankfully, it looks like everyone respected that request (or maybe you haven't seen that post, baddog?). Perhaps Diane should have done that in order to head you off, baddog, but possibly she didn't think anyone would such little class as to challenge and ask her to defend her personal decisions.

I hope she doesn't give you any answers, baddog.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 02:21 pm
baddog1 wrote:
At any rate; I retract and apologize for my statement above. In that regard - I was thinking of another member and my late-in-the-week attempt at multi-tasking failed miserably.


I thought so!


Quote:
However, please answer my remaining questions from that post. In case you missed them:

And speaking of insensitivity; please share your thoughts on how Diane's ex most likely felt upon gaining knowledge of the affair (at 60-something years old). Imagine starting over w/o the person you've been with for 34 years after being blind-sided by an affair and divorce. [Like I mentioned - you've only heard Diane's side.] Let us hear from your sensitive (or insensitive) side concerning Mr. Ex!
[/quote]

I purposefully did not answer your question, baddog, as I have no
knowledge of Diane's previous marriage. For all I know, she could
have endured an abusive husband for all these years until her
sons were grown up. I simply don't know, and I don't speculate about
other peoples private matters.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 02:21 pm
It isn't that the details are so salacious Mame, I just didn't feel like going over it because...

(a) I've given details at some point or another in other threads
(b) I'm sure no one else is that interested.
(c) It was so long ago, it's actually pretty boring now for me to think about.

hmmm...I reread those questions, and me, personally, I don't really see any of them as being that bad....at least it wouldn't seem that I would say as a response "Well! I Never!!!"

It really seems the type of questions that if you didn't want to answer you could just say, "Well, I don't want to go there"

This issue about baddog being declasse seems like a tempest in a tea pot to me. Not worth discussing anymore, so, that's all I have to say about that.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 02:42 pm
Well, I found the tenor of his questions to be rudely challenging, that's all. Anyway, none of my business, just putting my 2 cents' worth in.
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 04:07 pm
baddog1 wrote:
Diane wrote:
The posts here have been interesting and insightful. I can respect each one for the reasons given even when I disagree.

For me, I was never unfaithful in a 34 year marriage until I fell in love with Dys. Then there was no question. The attraction was too strong and I had been so terribly unhappy for most of those 34 years.

Perhaps because we are older--I robbed the cradle, he is two years younger than I--vows take on a different meaning. We aren't married, but I feel more married than ever before. For us, love, trust, respect and being with and caring for each other every day is what our relationship is all about.

Another aspect we don't have to worry about is kids. My sons are in their 30's so they weren't at risk of being harmed by my divorcing their father.

Besides, I don't know how we could possibly put into words just what our 'marriage' means to us--it is so full of total love and trust and other, more complex emotions-- we don't feel any promises need to be made--we just know. At our age, that also comes more easily. We've been around the block and know ourselves very well.

For me, making the decision to leave was tortuous and filled with guilt until I realized that if I didn't leave to be with the one man I truly loved, I would be unfaithful to myself. At the age of 60, I guess it wasn't as hard as it would have been at 40 or 50.

A friend put it very well by telling me the story of her great aunt: her aunt had always been unhappy and mistreated, but in that generation, divorce wasn't considered. To find a safe way out, she stopped taking her medications for high blood pressure and heart problems. Death was the only 'respectable' way out of that chronic unhappiness.

That made me take a very different look at the meaning and importance of marriage vows. If they result in trapping one in perpetual unhappiness, they need to be broken.

For me, life began at 60 and it has been better than ever before. And there is no guilt, just happiness.

I realize that our case is different because we are much older than most of you, but our story can bring some understanding to what vows and marriage are about and the importance of being true to one's self.


Interesting story that brings a few questions to mind.

Why didn't you wait until after divorcing to begin seeing dys?

You claim to have been terribly unhappy for nearly 34 years. Would you consider that you had any responsibility in the unhappiness? Please share with us some of the things you did to bring happiness into your dreadful marriage.

How did your affair and subsequent divorce affect your ex?

How can you determine for your 30-something y.o. sons that your affair and divorce was not harmful. Please tell us what the conversation was like when you told your sons that you were having an affair with another man, that you loved him and was leaving their father.

Your comment about being unfaithful to yourself if you don't have an affair and divorce your ex intrigues me. Please expound.

You've presented the image that your ex was an awful man. There is no way for any of us to know the truth. What do you feel his response would be to your words on here?

What is your definition of a 'vow'? Clearly it is related to age, so please offer the approximate age when the traditional definition of 'vow' changes.


I'm not so sure that it was the questions themselves that made me react the same as Calamity Jane. I think it was the attitude with which they were asked.
baddog was in an attack mode using phrases "you claim," "please tell us...," "please expound."
All the questions were posed in a confrontational manner, which made me think that regardless of what Diane said, she was going to be challanged.

Challenged by someone that doesn't know her or her situation.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 04:21 pm
Mame wrote:
I also feel those questions are a little blunt and invasive for a public forum, not to mention in bad taste, but agree that Diane is quite capable of fielding or answering them herself.

Just because a person shares something doesn't mean the whole thing is up for a minute investigation. Chai has shared personal information (on one topic in particular) and clearly stated she didn't want to get into the intimate details -- thankfully, it looks like everyone respected that request (or maybe you haven't seen that post, baddog?). Perhaps Diane should have done that in order to head you off, baddog, but possibly she didn't think anyone would such little class as to challenge and ask her to defend her personal decisions.

I hope she doesn't give you any answers, baddog.


You, like everyone on here are entitled to your wishes. So be it. I have no problem with that. You're wrong about commenting on anything posted on here though. If one desires for their information to remain private - they should keep it private; or at the very least; ask that nothing is mentioned. Clearly Diane did none of that.

Concerning Chai's personal information - I have no idea what you're talking about.

I also have no idea as to Diane's character other than what I read on here. Nor do you. If she wants to answer, or does not - it matters little to me. The fact still remains that she cheated on her husband of 34 years & shows no remorse. And despite the facts revealed by her post - many on here think she's some sort of hero. I do not. If that makes me classless - so be it.

I am also saddened (but certainly not surprised) at the lack of empathy and/or compassion on here for the sons and the ex by many.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 04:31 pm
CalamityJane wrote:

I purposefully did not answer your question, baddog, as I have no
knowledge of Diane's previous marriage. For all I know, she could
have endured an abusive husband for all these years until her
sons were grown up. I simply don't know, and I don't speculate about
other peoples private matters.


I did not ask if you had knowledge of her previous marriage. I asked how you thought the ex and sons would most likely feel given the information provided. Since you don't speculate about other people's private matters - I am addresing your 'pseudo' speculation about her potentially abusive ex husband. Certainly that is possible - as is the equal chance that he made every effort to do his part in keeping Diane "happy". Interesting that your 'non-speculative' policy does not mention that chance.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 04:33 pm
happycat wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
Diane wrote:
The posts here have been interesting and insightful. I can respect each one for the reasons given even when I disagree.

For me, I was never unfaithful in a 34 year marriage until I fell in love with Dys. Then there was no question. The attraction was too strong and I had been so terribly unhappy for most of those 34 years.

Perhaps because we are older--I robbed the cradle, he is two years younger than I--vows take on a different meaning. We aren't married, but I feel more married than ever before. For us, love, trust, respect and being with and caring for each other every day is what our relationship is all about.

Another aspect we don't have to worry about is kids. My sons are in their 30's so they weren't at risk of being harmed by my divorcing their father.

Besides, I don't know how we could possibly put into words just what our 'marriage' means to us--it is so full of total love and trust and other, more complex emotions-- we don't feel any promises need to be made--we just know. At our age, that also comes more easily. We've been around the block and know ourselves very well.

For me, making the decision to leave was tortuous and filled with guilt until I realized that if I didn't leave to be with the one man I truly loved, I would be unfaithful to myself. At the age of 60, I guess it wasn't as hard as it would have been at 40 or 50.

A friend put it very well by telling me the story of her great aunt: her aunt had always been unhappy and mistreated, but in that generation, divorce wasn't considered. To find a safe way out, she stopped taking her medications for high blood pressure and heart problems. Death was the only 'respectable' way out of that chronic unhappiness.

That made me take a very different look at the meaning and importance of marriage vows. If they result in trapping one in perpetual unhappiness, they need to be broken.

For me, life began at 60 and it has been better than ever before. And there is no guilt, just happiness.

I realize that our case is different because we are much older than most of you, but our story can bring some understanding to what vows and marriage are about and the importance of being true to one's self.


Interesting story that brings a few questions to mind.

Why didn't you wait until after divorcing to begin seeing dys?

You claim to have been terribly unhappy for nearly 34 years. Would you consider that you had any responsibility in the unhappiness? Please share with us some of the things you did to bring happiness into your dreadful marriage.

How did your affair and subsequent divorce affect your ex?

How can you determine for your 30-something y.o. sons that your affair and divorce was not harmful. Please tell us what the conversation was like when you told your sons that you were having an affair with another man, that you loved him and was leaving their father.

Your comment about being unfaithful to yourself if you don't have an affair and divorce your ex intrigues me. Please expound.

You've presented the image that your ex was an awful man. There is no way for any of us to know the truth. What do you feel his response would be to your words on here?

What is your definition of a 'vow'? Clearly it is related to age, so please offer the approximate age when the traditional definition of 'vow' changes.


I'm not so sure that it was the questions themselves that made me react the same as Calamity Jane. I think it was the attitude with which they were asked.
baddog was in an attack mode using phrases "you claim," "please tell us...," "please expound."
All the questions were posed in a confrontational manner, which made me think that regardless of what Diane said, she was going to be challanged.

Challenged by someone that doesn't know her or her situation.


Shocked OK - let's do it this way: How would you ask the same questions? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 04:44 pm
Baddog, I know you didn't ask me, but if you did, I'd say "I wouldn't have asked those questions to begin with".

Some of us here have known Diane for several years, which gave us more than plenty of time to get to know who she is.

We're not robots just because we're sitting at a computer when we communicate. Just like any relationship, you get to know eachother over time and just because we're not sitting right next to eachother doesn't make one bit of difference, not to me anyway!

Maybe you see us all as strangers, but I assure you that many of us aren't.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:04 pm
Everyone knows what I think, as Calamity Jane worded it earlier, and I thanked her.

I've expounded (where, this thread or another or another) on harpies recently. Fly-in righteous executioners. I admit I'm not perfect in this myself. Easier to see when others are doing it, of course.

To volunteer information about yourself doesn't require you to submit to community grilling. Your life is not up for debate when you share information, even if some wouldn't mind their lives being up for that. Of course a person can respond to questioning or not, but there is no necessity.

The righteousness also carries a burden, just like some burros do.
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:12 pm
well...I just typed an entire response to baddog's question, and then my computer froze.
But I see that Montana has already responded with the exact same first sentence of my lost post....I never would have asked those questions to begin with."

But may I add, regarding her sons, they were adults when this occurred, so I would hope that after the initial surpise (if in fact, it was a surprise) they pulled up their big boy pants and went on with their own lives, and let their mom go on with hers.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 05:48 pm
Montana wrote:
Baddog, I know you didn't ask me, but if you did, I'd say "I wouldn't have asked those questions to begin with".

Some of us here have known Diane for several years, which gave us more than plenty of time to get to know who she is.

We're not robots just because we're sitting at a computer when we communicate. Just like any relationship, you get to know eachother over time and just because we're not sitting right next to eachother doesn't make one bit of difference, not to me anyway!

Maybe you see us all as strangers, but I assure you that many of us aren't.


Hmmm. Interesting perspective Montana. I do not consider anyone on here to be a robot. I also could never truly 'know' anyone based on time spent via a computer. I need 'personal' time in order to get to know someone as a friend or more. It is very easy to (knowingly or unknowingly) be deceived over the internet and I am unwilling to take that chance.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 06:13 pm
Wow Baddog! What a sheltered life you must lead!

I seriously consider many people right here on A2K as my family! Yes, family! I would truly be lost without them.
I've known some here for around 8 years and counting and they are my friends/my family, as I am theirs.
We have shared so many things with eachother throughtout the years and it amazes even me that I can feel the love for so many that I've never even met in person.
We know things about eachother that most new folks don't know because they haven't known us long enough yet to know, therefor, you haven't got a clue as to what is going on with that person!
Some of us here know Diane's story and, well, you don't!

Diane is one of the most warm, caring, and compassionate people I know and you obviously don't know her!!!

Am am curious to know why you can't form the same friendship on the internet, than you can being right there with the person?
This puzzles me because it doesn't make any sense! When I'm talking with my friends on the computer, I regard them as being there as much as if they were sitting next to me! It just takes longer to type out your words.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 06:19 pm
There are times when I wish some of you were sitting right next to me, though!

Like right now, I wish you were sitting next to me, Baddog ;-)
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 07:47 pm
Baddog wrote:

Quote:
The fact remains that this sweet little old lady did what she did. There ain't no amount of sugar or name-calling gonna change that!

Why thank you, baddog. You actually have a sense of humor.

As far as I'm concerned, you have every right to ask any questions you like. I have every right not to answer if I feel that an honest, detailed answer would delve too deeply into my very personal life. So I will answer some of your questions. If you then want more, I will take it under consideration. When this all happened, one poster for whom I have a liking and real respect said something to the effect that she didn't think she could ever trust someone who had gotten a divorce. I was shocked at that overreaching statement, but it made me realize that everyone has strong opinions that aren't aways logical or reasonable. So here goes:

Dys and I met at an a2k get together here in Albuquerque, so niether I nor my husband knew what was going to happen.

We fell in love in a very trusting, and gentle way. For me, there was no doubt, just worry about what it would do to my family if I divorced my then husband.

Dys was very concerned about my feelings of guilt (over the divorce, not the being so-called unfaithful). He stressed that I should consider it from every possible aspect when I got home so that, if I did decide to leave my husband, the decision wouldn't be so filled with guilt that it would put too great a strain on our relationship. He was so wise and so unselfish.

I spoke with many of my friends and the family that I have left. Quite a few of my friends said, "What took you so long?" The others were very supportive. Only one cousin, a fundamentalist Christian who has had an affair, was unsupportive.

When I spoke to my sons, they were also supportive. They were also very worried. It took a couple of years for them to realize that my decision was for the best. One of my sons wrote of a camping trip here, mentioning Dys as his stepfather. This is how they both feel. Their relationship with Dys is one of love and friendship. Now that they have both been here a couple of times, they are completely positive and encouraging of our relationship.

They have suffered--not realizing how permanent my not being there would feel. They have been lonely without me and they have also been worried about their father, as he has always had someone to take care of the 'details' whether it was me or his secretary.

My sons now save their money so they can come out to stay with us. They find our home to be a welcoming and relaxing place to be and the best possible way to take a break from their working lives.

During some of our talks, they and I have agreed that if I had been a stronger woman, I probably would not have married their father. This is an area in which I will not go into further detail. I'm sure you agree that we all have extremely painful events in our lives that we can only talk about with our most trusted friends.

At the time we married, I loved him. I also admit to the fact that he made me feel safe. He found that I was a loving, appropriate corporate executive's wife. I knew how to dress and how to entertain. Through the years, we both realized that that was about all we had in common.

I will always love my ex for being the father of our sons. They are the light of my life.

We, my sons and I, agree that their dad is probably better off without me. This didn't go one way, after all, it had to be me to make the break because of people's perception. Everything must always be proper, even when in truth, it is miserable.

My ex, now retired, was a wonderful executive. He was able to put together a great staff and he was always supportive, helping to promote anyone who had shown unusual skills, including promoting a couple of women to management positions when that was still fairly unusual. But--they were his family. Not us. He was always the boss at work. Real life at home isn't ever that predictable--it tends to gets in the way of someone who loves control and disciplined order.

The boys have told me he has a girlfriend now who makes him very happy. That makes me very happy (although I have to admit to a little illogical jealousy--maybe the women here will understand).

As you may have noticed, my relationship with my sons is very close. Their dad didn't have time to teach them about sex, how to drive, or how to maintain their priorities when there was enormous peer pressure.

I didn't always do a good job. I wish their father could have been more active and so do they.

Without going into detail, the thing which hurt me throughout our marriage, was my exe's condescending and patronizing treatment of me. That is where my lack of will comes in. If I had been able to tell him that I was worth far more than he was showing me, maybe he would have taken a closer look at our marriage. I sometimes think he wasn't even aware of how he treated me. I could see on some our friend's faces that they were very aware, but they, understandably, would never say anything although they would occasionally come to my defense.

Thirty four years of being treated like an employee was more demoralizing than you can imagine. You will probalby have an opinion about this as will a few others, but that is the way it was and I will not go into detail.

I do not feel the need to justify my actions or to apologize for the divorce. Both of us are better off now.

Neither Dys nor I (for personal reasons) could ever really trust another human being until we met. We had never known this kind of love, the kind that permeates each cell and every moment of our lives.

I feel that I have known and loved Dys from the beginning of time and I hope, if there is such a thing as karma, that we find each other in all of our lives to come.

What we have is rare and beautiful and something to be treasured with every fiber of our being. And we do, everyday.
0 Replies
 
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2007 07:54 pm
I love you Diane :-D
0 Replies
 
 

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