1
   

Help! Rainsoft no longer working! :(

 
 
harrorainsoft
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 12:13 am
Ok well, the EcoWater guy came. Super nice guy. He's been in this business for 48 years. Plumbing, installing, selling, etc. So, I ask him about Fleck, Clack, Autotrol, etc. and says they're all generic brands. Usually sold by independent guys. Or by companies that use their valve but put their on brand on it. Or people who sell them online. He says they're all basically the same. Also says people that sell them online are typically not certified and just want to sell the products, not service them, and get away with making money on it. Then he said there are worse people who do it in development areas. Put up shop, sell the softeners, install it, tell people lifetime warranty, and when development ends, close shop and on to next development area. Hmm... no wonder most water softener sellers I called were in the area of new development. Bastards. And so he rants about how people use the same brush to paint him as they do the scammers.

He gives his sales speech, cracks some jokes, tells me about soft water, and tells me about the systems he's selling me. The EcoWater ERR 3500 or the EcoWater ESD 2500. Main difference between the 2 he says is that the 3500 has the refiner (takes out chlorine taste from water using a carbon filter, makes the water much more crisp) and 15.8 gal/min pressure. The 2500 does not have the refiner and only 10.8 gal/min. Now, I'm not going to talk price, because it seems like all you guys here avoid a specific price (I'm sure it's because you don't want jeopardize other fellow water softener guys, I completely understand). I won't disclose the price, but the difference in price between the 2 units is only $200. He will also extend the warranty for the control board to 10 years instead of the original 5 years because there was a home and garden show special over the weekend which he will throw in. So, if I am going to choose one, it will definitely be the 3500.

Now, here's the problem. A certified company (again, another really really nice guy, and the ecowater guy knows this company and says is very reputable and knows the owners) which mainly deals with water softeners for commercial businesses is charging HALF the price of the ecowater 3500, for a Fleck 2150SE system. Both EcoWater and Fleck systems will be a 1.0 cu. ft. tank (they will not sell me any larger because I don't have more than 6 people in the house). Both will bring the plumbing for the softener up to code, stupid ass rainsoft guys didn't do it to code, not even up to code 15 years old (according to the ecowater guy).

Also, the warranty for the Fleck system is only on parts which is the manufacturer warranty on it. Can't recall what it was. 10 years on the tank and 5 years on the valve and control board? Not sure, but it's the standard. So, to sum it up...


......................................... EcoWater 3500......Fleck 2150SE
Price..........................................$2........................$1
Tank......................................1 cu. ft..................1 cu. ft.
Pressure.............................15.8 gal/min..............???????
Warranty (resin tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (brine tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control valve).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control board).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)

Which would you guys suggest I go with??
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 12:26 am
harrorainsoft wrote:
Which would you guys suggest I go with??


The one that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling (both the softener and the dealer) :wink:
0 Replies
 
harrorainsoft
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 12:52 am
justalurker wrote:
harrorainsoft wrote:
Which would you guys suggest I go with??


The one that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling (both the softener and the dealer) :wink:


I don't swing that way and I don't believe they do either.

Which would you guys choose?
I know it's my choice, but I want to see what others would do. Considering you guys know much more about water softeners than i do.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 07:08 am
harrorainsoft wrote:


Which would you guys suggest I go with??


EcoWater.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 09:05 am
"(they will not sell me any larger because I don't have more than 6 people in the house)"...

You say you research things... THINK... is the size of your water service line from the street, or from your well, sized by the number of people in the house OR... the volume of water expected to be used by the number AND KIND of fixtures/bathrooms (body spray showers, big tubs etc. ) in the house? How about the size of the sewer or septic system line? Hint... the water service and sewer lines are sized before anyone moves into the house; based on what is the question you need the answer to.

I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them to actually buy one as opposed to being sold one.

Go find any resin manufacturers' web site and look up the spec sheet on their resins. If you don't learn anything about sizing a softener by reading a resin spec sheet, you're destined to become a victim of someone selling softeners; or giving bad advice.

Beware of the softener guy requiring a signed contract... and remember that he, or the company he sells for, had a lawyer draw that contract up to protect them/him.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 09:20 am
harrorainsoft, you don't need an over-sized system.


Gary Slusser wrote:


I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere
because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them ...


Rolling Eyes Wait for it...
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 09:41 am
Gary Slusser wrote:
I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them to actually buy one as opposed to being sold one.


customer: Hi

waiter/waitress: What'll you have?

customer: A cup of coffee please

waiter/waitress: No. Before you can have a cup of coffee you'll have to completely understand the molecular structure of coffee and then you have to learn how to grow and roast and process coffee beans and dig a well for the water.

customer: But all I want is a cup of coffee Confused

waiter/waitress Well then, you'll have to get your coffee somewhere else Twisted Evil

customer OK Laughing

Harrorainsoft,

You found two water treatment pros that impress you and that's two more than you've found shopping on the internet. The fact that both pros picked up the non-code installation says a lot.

Go with the one that makes you feel secure, stocks parts, has the best warranty, and will stand behind their work and their product. Idea

You can have just a cup of coffee if that's what you want :wink:
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 10:59 am
Gary Slusser wrote:
I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them to actually buy one as opposed to being sold one


insult... a salesman's last remark when he realizes he's lost the sale Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
harrorainsoft
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 12:41 pm
Gary Slusser wrote:
I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them to actually buy one as opposed to being sold one.


I understand you want the best for people. But this sort of reasoning is completely absurd.

I don't completely understand how my TV works. Yet, I have 3.
I don't completely understand how my microwave works. I have one.
I don't completely understand how my dishwasher works. I have one.
I don't completely understand how my car works. I have one.
I don't completely understand how my Wife works. I have one.

I completely understand how my computer works. I've never bought one. Always built my own. Not from scratch though. Razz
If I completely understood water softeners, I'd definitely buy one online and do it myself. But, I don't have time nor the expertise to do so.

Trying to understand absolutely every aspect of everything is not what I'm trying to achieve. My problem is that I have hard water. This guy says that he can solve my problems. I understand what he's selling me to the point where I'm comfortable. So, I'm happy, sales guy is happy, and most importantly wife is happy. Everyone wins.

And the Rainsoft system, currently broken, is also a 1 cu. ft. tank which was working fine until it broke.
0 Replies
 
justalurker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 05:43 pm
harrorainsoft wrote:
If I completely understood water softeners, I'd definitely buy one online and do it myself. But, I don't have time nor the expertise to do so.


That sir, is a genuine pearl of wisdom and is the situation most people with hard water find themselves in. It is exactly why professional service is so important to so many people whether they know (or admit) it or not.

Please let us know what you decide and how it works out.
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 09:11 pm
harrorainsoft wrote:
Gary Slusser wrote:
I don't think you should buy any softener from anyone anywhere because I'm convinced that you don't know enough about them to actually buy one as opposed to being sold one.


I understand you want the best for people. But this sort of reasoning is completely absurd.

You seem to have gotten my point but then moved away from it. It was about you being sold one instead of knowing which one to buy.

And you actually said: "Which would you guys suggest I go with??".
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 05:47 am
I'm so glad I don't need a water softener.

Are we sure this isn't actually what started the middle east wars?


Confused
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 07:00 am
Good morning Happycat! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Andy CWS
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 07:16 am
harrorainsoft wrote:
Ok well, the EcoWater guy came. Super nice guy. He's been in this business for 48 years. Plumbing, installing, selling, etc. So, I ask him about Fleck, Clack, Autotrol, etc. and says they're all generic brands. Usually sold by independent guys. Or by companies that use their valve but put their on brand on it. Or people who sell them online. He says they're all basically the same. Also says people that sell them online are typically not certified and just want to sell the products, not service them, and get away with making money on it. Then he said there are worse people who do it in development areas. Put up shop, sell the softeners, install it, tell people lifetime warranty, and when development ends, close shop and on to next development area. Hmm... no wonder most water softener sellers I called were in the area of new development. Bastards. And so he rants about how people use the same brush to paint him as they do the scammers.


Many things he had said are true or have been over the years. Numerous consummer protection laws have been drawn up and passed due to the shennigans of unscupulous dealers and sales men. More, no doubt will likely be on the way as cleaver folks learn how to separate you from your money.

harrorainsoft wrote:
Now, here's the problem. A certified company (again, another really really nice guy, and the ecowater guy knows this company and says is very reputable and knows the owners) which mainly deals with water softeners for commercial businesses is charging HALF the price of the ecowater 3500, for a Fleck 2150SE system. Both EcoWater and Fleck systems will be a 1.0 cu. ft. tank (they will not sell me any larger because I don't have more than 6 people in the house). Both will bring the plumbing for the softener up to code, stupid ass rainsoft guys didn't do it to code, not even up to code 15 years old (according to the ecowater guy).


What is involved in brining it "up to code"? Single tank softeners do calculate service cycles to the number of people using water as if each person used a specific number of gallons each day. It is not an ccurate way to determine the size of the softener but it all they got to work with. Twin tank systems don't estimate that way; they are sized according to the plumbing and the quality of the water being treated, neither of which changes greatly over time, although in some places may if the water source changes.

harrorainsoft wrote:
Also, the warranty for the Fleck system is only on parts which is the manufacturer warranty on it. Can't recall what it was. 10 years on the tank and 5 years on the valve and control board? Not sure, but it's the standard. So, to sum it up...


......................................... EcoWater 3500......Fleck 2150SE
Price..........................................$2........................$1
Tank......................................1 cu. ft..................1 cu. ft.
Pressure.............................15.8 gal/min..............???????
Warranty (resin tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (brine tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control valve).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control board).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)


Are we to assume those numbers include labor as well as parts. Had my car worked on last month and the bill was $378+ and the actual parts came to $32.89. Gee, I wonder where the rest of the bill went?

Also, understand any media that is designed to remove (actually, convert) chlorine will need to be repaced and those cost should be figured into your on-going maintenance cost.

Andy Christensen, CWS
0 Replies
 
happycat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 09:09 am
H2O_MAN wrote:
Good morning Happycat! Very Happy


right back at ya water dude! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
harrorainsoft
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 11:44 am
Andy CWS wrote:
What is involved in brining it "up to code"?


Don't quite recall, but it had something to do with re-routing the drain line to same drain as the washing machine because currently the drain is not going into a p-trap. And some other stuff needed to be done.

Andy CWS wrote:
harrorainsoft wrote:
Also, the warranty for the Fleck system is only on parts which is the manufacturer warranty on it. Can't recall what it was. 10 years on the tank and 5 years on the valve and control board? Not sure, but it's the standard. So, to sum it up...


......................................... EcoWater 3500......Fleck 2150SE
Price..........................................$2........................$1
Tank......................................1 cu. ft..................1 cu. ft.
Pressure.............................15.8 gal/min..............???????
Warranty (resin tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (brine tank).............Lifetime.............10 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control valve).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)
Warranty (control board).........10 years ............5 years (Manufacturer)


Are we to assume those numbers include labor as well as parts. Had my car worked on last month and the bill was $378+ and the actual parts came to $32.89. Gee, I wonder where the rest of the bill went?

Also, understand any media that is designed to remove (actually, convert) chlorine will need to be repaced and those cost should be figured into your on-going maintenance cost.

Andy Christensen, CWS


I won't be expecting any service for a couple years, but who knows. He said that the parts are under warranty. I will check again to make sure. But, the decisions was already made.

I will be going with the EcoWater system. If the thing lasts me 10 years, then I'll be happy. But, if I ever decide to sell the place, then there's more of a value to include a name brand softener than a no name brand.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 02:40 pm
harrorainsoft wrote:


I will be going with the EcoWater system. If the thing lasts me 10 years, then I'll be happy. But, if I ever decide to sell the place, then there's more of a value to include a name brand softener than a no name brand.


Excellent!

I look forward to a follow up report.
Make sure the selling dealer knows about A2K and this thread.

Take care,
Kevin
0 Replies
 
Gary Slusser
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 08:27 am
Andy CWS wrote:
Single tank softeners do calculate service cycles to the number of people using water as if each person used a specific number of gallons each day. It is not an ccurate way to determine the size of the softener but it all they got to work with. Twin tank systems don't estimate that way; they are sized according to the plumbing and the quality of the water being treated, neither of which changes greatly over time, although in some places may if the water source changes.


Modern control valves use the actual recorded daily water use of the home to establish when they regenerate.

Actually the alternating twin tank Kinetico softeners you sell use a hardness disc and then the number of gallons treated to determine when regeneration occurs.

Regarding twin tank systems you say: they are sized according to the plumbing and the quality of the water being treated... How does the plumbing impact/effect/affect etc. the size of a softener?

Did you mean to imply that regular softeners aren't sized for the plumbing and quality of water being treated (and what the treated water is to be used for)?

All alternating twin tank type softeners, including your Kinetico, use softened water to regenerate each tank. That causes them to use capacity and the salt required to create that capacity, for every regeneration.

Some twin tank type softeners will regenerate numerous times per day. On average for a family of four, with 1" plumbing and say 20 gpg hardness, how many times a day, on average, for the Kinetico softeners you sell? Or what is the minimum and maximum IYO?

The capacity of all softeners is adjustable by simply changing the salt dose in the given volume and type of resin in the softener.

The physical size of a softener, or a backwashed or regenerated filter, is dictated by the type of resin or mineral in cubic feet needed which dictates the physical size of the tank to be used.

The physical size of the tank then dictates the control valve that can be used based on the required backwash rate in gpm for that volume and type of resin or mineral.

Also, city water hardness levels change frequently, private well water can too but it changes much less frequently, and an owner of a water powered Kinetico must go to the local dealer and obtain the correct hardness disc and then take the control valve apart, swap the discs and then put the Kinetico control valve back together. I hear they usually must pay for the new disc.

I also hear there Kinetico control valves allow full main line water pressure in the brine line and against the float valve in the salt tank at all times except during the brine draw and brine refill positions of a regeneration.

Only Kinetico control valves require tearing the valve apart to change the hardness setting or has main line water pressure in the 3/8" polyethylene tubing and compression fittings and against the plastic float valve in the salt tank between regenerations!

Andy, I'm sure that readers want you to correct any inaccuracies in my statements.
0 Replies
 
harrorainsoft
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Sep, 2007 11:45 pm
Ok, EcoWater ERR 3502R30 system is up and running. Water is super soft. After using soap, it feels like the soap isn't washing off. Hair and skin feels silky smooth. Ahh, the benefits of soft water again.

Now, water is a bit salty. Going to give it a week or so because resin is new. Sales guy will be over again after 1 full week to check up on the system and how we like it. I hope the saltiness goes away. I believe the hardness level is set to 20.

Question, is it ok to water plants with this salty soft water? And I'm concerned that drinking too much of this salty water will lead to dehydration. Should I be worried or am I overreacting?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Sep, 2007 06:11 am
harrorainsoft wrote:


Now, water is a bit salty. Going to give it a week or so because resin is new. Sales guy will be over again after 1 full week to check up on the system and how we like it. I hope the saltiness goes away. I believe the hardness level is set to 20.


Call the dealer - you should not have any salty water.
0 Replies
 
 

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