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Gary Slusser wrote:

... he gives a lot of bad advice to people asking about softeners.

Bullsh!ti

justalurker gives excellent advice to people asking about softeners and other H2O equipment.

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I take all advice I get from anyone cautiously. It doesn't matter who it's from because advice or opinion is typically bias. It's all based on an individual's experience and point of view on the subject. It doesn't matter if it's advice from my stock broker, or from a banker, or from a car salesman, or even my father. I take their advice and opinions as they come, which is based on their own experience and point of view.

That is how I live my life. And we all live our lives differently. To each their own.

As for my decision in which water softener I will purchase and from who... I haven't decided. I'm really liking the Clack WS-1 as the DIY softener, but I'm also liking the Fleck for the fact that plumbers are experienced with it and can fix it if I'm unable to. I no longer have the time to mow my own lawn, so I might have to drop the idea of trying to fix something I'm unfamiliar with.

I finally got a hold of one of the plumbing companies in my area. They ONLY deal with Kinetico, period. Talk about lame. I have to try and find someone who would be willing to install the water softener before I buy it.

And again, thank all you guys for all your help and opinion. It is greatly appreciated.

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harrorainsoft wrote:

I take all advice I get from anyone cautiously. It doesn't matter who it's from because advice or opinion is typically bias. It's all based on an individual's experience and point of view on the subject. It doesn't matter if it's advice from my stock broker, or from a banker, or from a car salesman, or even my father. I take their advice and opinions as they come, which is based on their own experience and point of view.

You're absolutely right... free advice is worth what we pay for it.

harrorainsoft wrote:

I finally got a hold of one of the plumbing companies in my area. They ONLY deal with Kinetico, period. Talk about lame. I have to try and find someone who would be willing to install the water softener before I buy it.

Any plumber can install a water softener IF there is easy access to the water service line and there is a drain and an AC outlet nearby. You may want to do the assembly of the softener first as you will use more care and attention to detail.

You can peruse softener installation instructions here click for softener assembly and installation guides to see exactly what is involved.

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Most plumbers usually don't sell or repair softeners but any plumber can do the install.

The Clack is so easy and fast to repair that anyone with the desire can totally rebuild one in less than 30 minutes; at their convenience. That includes those that have never done anything like repairing a control valve.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The Clack is so easy and fast to repair that anyone with the desire can totally rebuild one in less than 30 minutes; at their convenience.

How often would a customer need to repair a Clack? Why?

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Hey guys,

Well, I've decided to go with purchasing a system from a local dealer and having them install it. The reason being, time. New job is taking away most of my free time, so I'll just have to eat the cost. Oh wells, that's life.

Now, any idea how much an entire system would cost including installation? (I already have the hook ups for a water softener). I don't want to get ripped off. Confused

Gary, H20_MAN, How much do you charge your customers if you were to sell an entire system and install it for them? (I hope you are able to answer this, if not send me an e-mail Smile

).

And an EcoWater salesman will be coming to give me an estimate for their systems on Thursday. I understand that H20_MAN prefers an EcoWater system, but why is that? How does it compare to Fleck systems?

One thing that I'm not clear about is, Fleck and Clack both make the control valves, do those companies also decide what goes into the resin tanks? I'm assuming how much of what goes into the resin tank all depends on the quality of the water to being with. But, I haven't seen any mention of that in any threads.

Well, thanks again for all the help. This is one of the best and most helpful forums I've been on, and it's all thanks to you guys. All of you.

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harrorainsoft wrote:

Well, I've decided to go with purchasing a system from a local dealer and having them install it. The reason being, time. New job is taking away most of my free time, so I'll just have to eat the cost. Oh wells, that's life.

Now, any idea how much an entire system would cost including installation? (I already have the hook ups for a water softener). I don't want to get ripped off.

Buying from a local dealer... you'll throw away about $500-$2500+ when you could spend like $688 delivered plus the maybe $350+/- for a plumber to install one of my 1.5 cuft (48k) softeners with a Clack WS-1 control valve on it.

harrorainsoft wrote:

One thing that I'm not clear about is, Fleck and Clack both make the control valves, do those companies also decide what goes into the resin tanks? I'm assuming how much of what goes into the resin tank all depends on the quality of the water to being with. But, I haven't seen any mention of that in any threads.

No, Clack and Autotrol and Fleck make the control valve, other companies make the resin and the tanks etc..

The volume and type of resin is dictated by numerous things, including the water quality being treated, and what the treated water will be used for; here it would be residential. And how much water is going to be treated; that's total gallons daily AND as in the peak demand flow rate gpm the softener must treat.

Then the proper volume and type of resin dictates the size of the tank and that sizes the softener; a 1 cuft, a 1.5 cuft etc.. Commonly but mistakenly called 32K and 48K softeners.

The size of the tank dictates the control valve that can be used to service that size tank. I.E. a Fleck 5600 (in any of its versions) can only be used for a softener on tanks from 6" to 12" DIA. For a filter, 6-10" tanks and a 10" filter is a 1.5 cuft and a 12" tank is a 2.0 cuft softener, commonly but mistakenly called a "64K" softener. A Clack WS-1 can be used on up to a 21" DIA tank, a 6.5 cuft softener OR FILTER. A Fleck 5600 or 2510 CAN NOT compare with a Clack WS-1. For Fleck you have to go to a 2750 for a fairer comparison to a Clack WS-1. But then Fleck still can't compete with the variable reserve and other features of the Clack WS-1. Only the Fleck 7000 and ProFlo is a fair comparison. Or as features, the Fleck 6600 and 6700 but they use the 5600 valve body and have the same tank size limitations. And there's been all kinds of problems with all but the 2750. Its problem is the unbelievable HIGH price and no factory by-pass valve.

Then the salt dose lbs/cuft in whatever type of resin in the tank dictates the K of capacity of the softener. Then the K of capacity dictates the length of the service run, the number of days between regenerations. That's true for both day timer and demand/meter initiated types of control valves .

Click here for information on correctly sizing a softener.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

The size of the tank dictates the control valve that can be used to service that size tank. I.E. a Fleck 5600 (in any of its versions) can only be used for a softener on tanks from 6" to 12" DIA. For a filter, 6-10" tanks and a 10" filter is a 1.5 cuft and a 12" tank is a 2.0 cuft softener, commonly but mistakenly called a "64K" softener. A Clack WS-1 can be used on up to a 21" DIA tank, a 6.5 cuft softener OR FILTER.

Come on Slusser, this guy needs a "normal" size softener for a typical RESIDENTIAL installation. Don't be jivin' him with the Clack's ability to handle a 21" resin tank when his softener will only have an 8" or 9" or 10" or 12" at the most. This guy is looking to soften water in his home not a hospital or military barracks.

So, a hunter shouldn't use a 22 on rabbits because a 22 won't kill an elephant?

Gary Slusser wrote:

A Fleck 5600 or 2510 CAN NOT compare with a Clack WS-1. For Fleck you have to go to a 2750 for a fairer comparison to a Clack WS-1. But then Fleck still can't compete with the variable reserve and other features of the Clack WS-1. Only the Fleck 7000 and ProFlo is a fair comparison.

Can't compete? Yea, right. All the Flecks do is soften water in residential and commercial installations minute after minute, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, and decade after decade all over the world.

The undisputed fact that Fleck control valves outsell ALL OTHER CONTROL VALVES ADDED TOGETHER worldwide is proof that they are perfectly suited to residential installations and have been the water treatment industry's choice for 30+ years and continue to be. Fleck ain't goin' nowhere and remains the smart choice for savy customers who want relaible soft water instead of the hope they will have it.

Harrorainsoft,

Don't be bullied, scared, or tricked by irrelevant facts that are not pertinent to your water treatment requirements.

Asking an online seller, who provides no service, what he charges for an installed softener is a waste of typing. Get a couple or three of those local companies that you are considering to come in and make a site inspection and give you a detailed quote.

Ask lots of questions. Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts in house? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

Then, bring that info to the forum for opinions or make up your own mind... which you are more than capable of doing. :wink:

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justalurker wrote:

Come on Slusser, this guy needs a "normal" size softener for a typical RESIDENTIAL installation. Don't be jivin' him with the Clack's ability to handle a 21" resin tank when his softener will only have an 8" or 9" or 10" or 12" at the most. This guy is looking to soften water in his home not a hospital or military barracks.

I keep saying you give bad advice and this is a classic example! You don't know how to size a softener correctly... how do you know he needs one of your "normal" softeners and not one of my, I guess you'd say, 'abnormal sized' softeners?

BTW, recalling that you didn't size any of your three softeners you installed over the last 15 or so years, and that's the only softeners you've installed, what is a "typical" residential installation in your opinion?

FYI, many of my customers require larger than a 2.0 cuft softener. pssst, I looked last weekend, Q3 figures ya know, and IIRC, I've sold 47 softeners larger than 2.0 cuft so far this year. A... let me spell that for you, they are 2.5 cuft and larger. There's one or two 4.0 cuft in that number and no sales for a barracks or hospital; all to residential houses.

I suppose you think that most web sites offer larger than a 12" dia tank (2.0 cuft) softeners only for commercial establishments.... In my 5 years experience selling to DIYers online, I've yet to have the first call from a commercial establishment but, a residential customer did buy a twin 9100 (2.5 cuft each tank) softener for his wife's oriental restaurant.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

I keep saying you give bad advice and this is a classic example! You don't know how to size a softener correctly

Yea, I know.... nobody knows how to size a water softener but you.

Gary Slusser wrote:

FYI, many of my customers require larger than a 2.0 cuft softener. pssst, I looked last weekend, Q3 figures ya know, and IIRC, I've sold 47 softeners larger than 2.0 cuft so far this year. A... let me spell that for you, they are 2.5 cuft and larger. There's one or two 4.0 cuft in that number and no sales for a barracks or hospital; all to residential houses.

Just to be clear... how many softeners with 21" diameter resin tanks have you sold for residental installation? Would that would be a 21x62 resin tank with 7 cubic feet of resin and a hardness capacity of 210,000 grains?

FYI, 7 cubic feet of resin is a lot more than 4 cubic feet of resin.

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
I keep saying you give bad advice and this is a classic example! You don't know how to size a softener correctly

Yea, I know.... nobody knows how to size a water softener but you.

A softener with 1.5 cubic feet of resin is considered very large in the residential market. It is used on problem well water.
Larger softeners are needed when flow rates, usage and plumbing size increase. These fall into the commercial category.

These huge softeners that some online sellers push on clients are nothing short of a huge rip off.

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LOL

I'll bet you can't find one article anywhere supporting your claims but... I can find many that say you're wrong.

Here's some figures I just found in the dealer section of a rather large national distributor's web site.

Let me know which figures you disagree with; this is for regular mesh resin. Fine mesh resin Continuous and Peak gpm Flow Rate figures are substantially less while capacity figures are higher but... there is a substantial increased pressure loss across a softener with fine mesh resin.

Note: A salt dose lower than 6 lbs/cuft (9lbs) could be used.

Tank 10" x 54" 1.5 Cu. Ft.
Capacity with 50% Freeboard
D.L.F.C. Size * 2.73
* Based on 53 deg. water
Inches of Media: 33
Inches of Freeboard: 21

System Capacity: 30000 @ 9 lbs salt dose
**Recommended Continuous Flow Rate 8.18 gpm

System Capacity: 36000 @ 12.75 lbs salt dose

System Capacity: 45000 @ 22.5 lbs salt dose
**Recommended Peak Flow Rate 13.64 gpm

While we're here, please explain what the Continuous and Peak demand gpm figures above mean? Just don't tell us anything like this guy says without mentioning a single word about the SFR gpm of the RESIN in the softener!!

Did you pick up on his error about the SFR gpm of control valves?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

LOL

I'll bet you can't find one article anywhere supporting your claims but... I can find many that say you're wrong.

You continue to prove that you care more about posing as a know it all and care less about doing the right thing for the customer.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

I keep saying you give bad advice and this is a classic example! You don't know how to size a softener correctly

justalurker wrote:

Yea, I know.... nobody knows how to size a water softener but you.

We aren't talking about other people, well there is h20man, we are talking about your abilities.

Gary Slusser wrote:

FYI, many of my customers require larger than a 2.0 cuft softener. pssst, I looked last weekend, Q3 figures ya know, and IIRC, I've sold 47 softeners larger than 2.0 cuft so far this year. A... let me spell that for you, they are 2.5 cuft and larger. There's one or two 4.0 cuft in that number and no sales for a barracks or hospital; all to residential houses.

justalurker wrote:

Just to be clear... how many softeners with 21" diameter resin tanks have you sold for residental installation? Would that would be a 21x62 resin tank with 7 cubic feet of resin and a hardness capacity of 210,000 grains?

The largest softener I've sold online for a house: a 5.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1, was in a 5.5 bathroom house with two two person showers and two large jetted tubs occupied by 6 full time adults (four 18-20 something kids). IIRC the water hardness was something close to 35 gpg and the house had 1.25" plumbing. It was set up at high salt efficiency and for a regeneration every 8 days on average BUT...

What size should I have used, or would you suggest?

And what is the largest softener you've sold, and how long have you been selling softeners?

BTW, (actually looking it up) I see a 20" x 62" tank (yes that's 20) with 50% freeboard is a 7.5 cuft softener and has a maximum capacity of 225.2 K using a salt dose of 113 lbs. And 180.2K at 64 lbs and 150.1K at 45 lbs..

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The question was and only required a one syllable numerical answer...

justalurker wrote:

Just to be clear... how many softeners with 21" diameter resin tanks have you sold for residental installation?

Your off-point and evasive answer was...

Gary Slusser wrote:

The largest softener I've sold online for a house: a 5.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1, was in a 5.5 bathroom house with two two person showers and two large jetted tubs occupied by 6 full time adults (four 18-20 something kids). IIRC the water hardness was something close to 35 gpg and the house had 1.25" plumbing. It was set up at high salt efficiency and for a regeneration every 8 days on average BUT...

Still well short of the 7+ cu ft 21" diameter tank softener that you irrelevantly introduced into the thread.

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
The largest softener I've sold online for a house: a 5.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1, was in a 5.5 bathroom house with two two person showers and two large jetted tubs occupied by 6 full time adults (four 18-20 something kids). IIRC the water hardness was something close to 35 gpg and the house had 1.25" plumbing. It was set up at high salt efficiency and for a regeneration every 8 days on average BUT...

Still well short of the 7+ cu ft 21" diameter tank softener that you irrelevantly brought into the thread.

Man that's LAME! but a 5.5 cuft is "well short of the 7.0"!! Maybe your problem with correct sizing is your use of math.

Yes I explained the versatility of the Clack WS-1; that it can be used on 6" x 18" tanks to 21" x 62" tanks for both a softener or a filter.

BTW, that fact is one reason why so many distributors, their dealers and national/international companies and pump and plumbing supply houses are going to Clack control valves.

Yet you keep ranting about Fleck and decades... you don't still use a rotary phone, or electric adding machine, or many of the other new technology 'things', like a cell phone, digital TV etc. that have been invented in the last 10-30 years, so tell me again why you want people to use all but 60 year old control valves?

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I have a rotary phone ... everyone should have one Cool

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Man that's LAME! but a 5.5 cuft is "well short of the 7.0"!! Maybe your problem with correct sizing is your use of math.

There's no "maybe" about you not answering a direct question and slippin' and slidin' in a different direction as you often do.

Gary Slusser wrote:

you don't still use a rotary phone, or electric adding machine, or many of the other new technology 'things', like a cell phone, digital TV etc. that have been invented in the last 10-30 years, so tell me again why you want people to use all but 60 year old control valves?

And again, the Slusser backstroke. An off-point analogy to make a point no one was discussing. If there were more rotary dial phones in service than all other types of phones added together worldwide then lots of us would be using rotary phones.

There are lots of professional carpenters and framers that still use claw hammers even though air nailers have proven themselves.

Gary Slusser wrote:

you keep ranting about Fleck and decades

No rant, just fact. 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years of proven reliable field service has infinitely more credibility than the approval of an online water softener huckster. As I've stated before, in 10 or 20 years we'll know about the Clack WS1 one way or the other.

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Yep, if I need a 7.5 cuft I can use the same Clack WS-1 I use for the smallest softener and as you say "normal" softeners too.

If you go to Fleck, you need a much more expensive valve and you still don't get the features of the Clack. That's a fact.

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justalurker wrote:

Gary Slusser wrote:
Man that's LAME! but a 5.5 cuft is "well short of the 7.0"!! Maybe your problem with correct sizing is your use of math.

There's no "maybe" about you not answering a direct question and slippin' and slidin' in a different direction as you often do.

Gary Slusser wrote:
you don't still use a rotary phone, or electric adding machine, or many of the other new technology 'things', like a cell phone, digital TV etc. that have been invented in the last 10-30 years, so tell me again why you want people to use all but 60 year old control valves?

And again, the Slusser backstroke. An off-point analogy to make a point no one was discussing. If there were more rotary dial phones in service than all other types of phones added together worldwide then lots of us would be using rotary phones.

There are lots of professional carpenters and framers that still use claw hammers even though air nailers have proven themselves.

Gary Slusser wrote:
you keep ranting about Fleck and decades

No rant, just fact. 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years of proven reliable field service has infinitely more credibility than the approval of an online water softener huckster. As I've stated before, in 10 or 20 years we'll know about the Clack WS1 one way or the other.

More flip-floppin', bobin' and weavin', slippin' and slidin', and backstrokin' ... having political aspirations Question

I take your not addressing my post to indicate your agreement.

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