Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:15 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Many pyschologists have described "atheism" as a "replacement belief system" which supplants religion.

Name three.
NSFW (view)
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:36 am
@Thomas,
It's a standard hypothesis, advanced by many. Here's a paper which discusses (and names) a number of psychologists who support and/or have tested this theory.

Quote:
if the belief replacement hypothesis is true, that is, if atheists espouse naturalistic beliefs, whether explicitly or implicitly, that take the place of supernatural ones, then we’d expect these beliefs to be particularly relevant, not only at the cognitive, but motivational and emotional levels....

In 2009 and 2010, Bastiaan Rutjens and his Dutch colleagues published two articles about the psychological role of belief in progress that provides support for the belief replacement hypothesis.


http://www.academia.edu/5480080/The_Psychology_of_Atheism_2013_._In_The_Oxford_Handbook_of_Atheism_edited_by_S._Bullivant_and_M._Ruse_pp._468-482_._Oxford_University_Press

Ruse seems to hold it also. This same article notes that:

Quote:
The very notion of‘believing in science’ is naturally open to criticism. Scientists and philosophers who claim the superiority, or even exclusivity of scientific methods and results have been accused of dogmatism, or scientism ( Stenmark 2001 ). Afer all, it is one thing to use science as a method, and another to grant it metaphysical status.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:45 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Whether or not that is true, what would be the problem if it was? The case for believing in god just isn't that strong. It doesn't take the philosophical equivalent of a rocket scientist to debunk it. A simple and direct rebuttal is perfectly adequate; sophistication is unnecessary for the task.


No doubt, Thomas, you have rebuttals that would have many brilliant men throughout history (Newton, Jefferson, and Einstein, just to name a very few) slaping themselves upside the head and saying: "How could I possibly have been so stupid?! Thank you, Thomas for your simple rebuttal of my foolish conclusions. I've been blind, but now I see!"
argome321
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:52 am
@Ragman,
Quote:
However, all of this is off-topic about OP of Atheism


True, I was just digressing a bit.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 08:12 am
@layman,
You're missing my point, and you didn't answer my question. If a rebuttal of the case for believing in gods is unsophisticated and true, that only goes to show that sophistication is unnecessary. If it's unsophisticated and false, showing that it's false is a far superior counter-rebuttal. Either way, what does it matter if the rebuttal is unsophisticated? What's the problem?
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 08:16 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
What's the problem?


I quoted (and gave a citations for) one of Michael Ruse's papers on the topic. It was his complaint. It's a rather lengthy paper, so if you want to know more about his complaints, then read it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 08:23 am
@Thomas,
From another submission. entitled "Dawkins et al bring us into disrepute" by Ruse:

Quote:
...there is certainly a split, a schism, in our ranks. I am not whining (in fact I am rather proud) when I point out that a rather loud group of my fellow atheists, generally today known as the "new atheists", loathe and detest my thinking...

unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, "What caused God?" as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery...

I defend to the death the right of the new atheists to their views and to their right to propagate them. But that is no excuse for political stupidity.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/02/atheism-dawkins-ruse
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 08:42 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
If a rebuttal of the case for believing in gods is unsophisticated and true, that only goes to show that sophistication is unnecessary.


What the hell is this supposed to mean? A bad argument remains a bad argument even if it accidentally comes to the "right" conclusion. But Ruse isn't even talking about the "right" conclusion. As he makes clear, he thinks he is more of a non-believer than Dawkins is. His point is that the embarrassing ignorance (as he sees it) displayed by Dawkins is damaging to atheists as a group.
NSFW (view)
layman
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:11 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
...they shoot their own foot, damage their own side (which happens to me mine too), making atheists look crude, aloof and condescending.


Yeah, that's (at least one of) Ruse's complaint(s).

Christians have the "young earth creationists" to embarrass them. Atheists have Dawkins, Dennet, Hitchens, et al.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:27 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Many pyschologists have described "atheism" as a "replacement belief system" which supplants religion.

Well, if atheism is, or can be, a replacement belief system it would also be a religion, since religion involves belief.

But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.
layman
 
  -1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:30 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.



Several pages (well, more really) were just spent dealing with this claim. All the dictionaries and neutral analysts say otherwise, I'm afraid.

You are describing an agnostic, not an atheist.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:30 am
@layman,
layman quoting Ruse wrote:
The Humanism I have been discussing in this piece does bear strong similarities to conventional religion. One finds the enthusiasm of the true believer, and this encourages a set of unnerving attributes: intolerance, hero-worship, moral certainty and the self-righteous condemnation of unbelievers.


layman wrote:
Many pyschologists have described "atheism" as a "replacement belief system" which supplants religion.

You're conflating Humanism with atheism.

If atheism is, or can be, a replacement belief system it would also be a religion, since religion involves belief.

But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:32 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Well, if atheism is, or can be, a replacement belief system it would also be a religion, since religion involves belief.


Yes, Ruse notes that, and says that atheism is, in fact, very similar to a religion.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:33 am
@layman,
Quote:
Dawkins, Dennet, Hitchens

I never read any of those so they don't really matter to me, and the debate is almost obsolete in France, where atheism is more mature (I dare say) and has long enjoyed a prominent place and role in society which is seldom challenged (Charlie Hebdo murders notwithstanding). My problem is with the raving atheists I meet with, e.g. on this site. More than embarrassment, they give me the creeps, as if I found myself in a debating team composed of lunatics.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:35 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
You're conflating Humanism with atheism.


At this point *I* am not doing anything beyond citing Michael Ruse.

Quote:
But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.


Yes, you said that before. Say it a million times, if it makes you feel good. The dictionaries and philosophical experts will still deny it.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:36 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.



Several pages (well, more really) were just spent dealing with this claim. All the dictionaries and neutral analysts say otherwise, I'm afraid.

You are describing an agnostic, not an atheist.

The dictionaries are all over the place on this, and the neutrality of the analysts you point to is suspect.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:37 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Quote:
But atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). A lack of belief isn't a belief system.


Yes, you said that before. Say it a million times, if it makes you feel good. The dictionaries and philosophical experts will still deny it.

You were quick on the draw, and I was still editing. My intent was to say it once.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2015 09:39 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The dictionaries are all over the place on this, and the neutrality of the analysts you point to is suspect.


I'm not going to repeat it all. If you want a detailed response to this claim (which I seriously doubt) then read the last 10 pages or so of this thread.
 

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