spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 04:50 am
@Setanta,
It is quite an amusing spectacle to see a chap walking a dog. Owners (sic) of pet dogs (sic) are fundie control freaks who are itching to practice on humans.

What sort of animal lover goes to the butcher?

What sort of bloke loves only one woman? It's a species of ownership.

Love is associated with habit, conditioning and self-interest.

In Chapter 6, Pecuniary Canons of Taste, of Thorstein Veblen's brilliant essay, The Theory of the Leisure Class, there is this--(WARNING. Logical, critical thinkers of the scientific persuasion are advised to sing I Did It My Way whilst reaching for Ignore.)

Quote:
The like pervading guidance of taste by pecuniary repute is traceable in the prevalent standards of beauty in animals. The part played by this canon of taste in assigning her place in the popular aesthetic scale to the cow has already been spokes of. Something to the same effect is true of the other domestic animals, so far as they are in an appreciable degree industrially useful to the community—as, for instance, barnyard fowl, hogs, cattle, sheep, goats, draught-horses. They are of the nature of productive goods, and serve a useful, often a lucrative end; therefore beauty is not readily imputed to them. The case is different with those domestic animals which ordinarily serve no industrial end; such as pigeons, parrots and other cage-birds, cats, dogs, and fast horses. These commonly are items of conspicuous consumption, and are therefore honorific in their nature and may legitimately be accounted beautiful. This class of animals are conventionally admired by the body of the upper classes, while the pecuniarily lower classes—and that select minority of the leisure class among whom the rigorous canon that abjures thrift is in a measure obsolescent—find beauty in one class of animals as in another, without drawing a hard and fast line of pecuniary demarcation between the beautiful and the ugly. In the case of those domestic animals which are honorific and are reputed beautiful, there is a subsidiary basis of merit that should be spokes of. Apart from the birds which belong in the honorific class of domestic animals, and which owe their place in this class to their non-lucrative character alone, the animals which merit particular attention are cats, dogs, and fast horses. The cat is less reputable than the other two just named, because she is less wasteful; she may even serve a useful end. At the same time the cat's temperament does not fit her for the honorific purpose. She lives with man on terms of equality, knows nothing of that relation of status which is the ancient basis of all distinctions of worth, honor, and repute, and she does not lend herself with facility to an invidious comparison between her owner and his neighbors. The exception to this last rule occurs in the case of such scarce and fanciful products as the Angora cat, which have some slight honorific value on the ground of expensiveness, and have, therefore, some special claim to beauty on pecuniary grounds.

The dog has advantages in the way of uselessness as well as in special gifts of temperament. He is often spoken of, in an eminent sense, as the friend of man, and his intelligence and fidelity are praised. The meaning of this is that the dog is man's servant and that he has the gift of an unquestioning subservience and a slave's quickness in guessing his master's mood. Coupled with these traits, which fit him well for the relation of status—and which must for the present purpose be set down as serviceable traits—the dog has some characteristics which are of a more equivocal aesthetic value. He is the filthiest of the domestic animals in his person and the nastiest in his habits. For this he makes up in a servile, fawning attitude towards his master, and a readiness to inflict damage and discomfort on all else. The dog, then, commends himself to our favor by affording play to our propensity for mastery, and as he is also an item of expense, and commonly serves no industrial purpose, he holds a well-assured place in men's regard as a thing of good repute. The dog is at the same time associated in our imagination with the chase—a meritorious employment and an expression of the honorable predatory impulse. Standing on this vantage ground, whatever beauty of form and motion and whatever commendable mental traits he may possess are conventionally acknowledged and magnified. And even those varieties of the dog which have been bred into grotesque deformity by the dog-fancier are in good faith accounted beautiful by many. These varieties of dogs—and the like is true of other fancy-bred animals—are rated and graded in aesthetic value somewhat in proportion to the degree of grotesqueness and instability of the particular fashion which the deformity takes in the given case. For the purpose in hand, this differential utility on the ground of grotesqueness and instability of structure is reducible to terms of a greater scarcity and consequent expense. The commercial value of canine monstrosities, such as the prevailing styles of pet dogs both for men's and women's use, rests on their high cost of production, and their value to their owners lies chiefly in their utility as items of conspicuous consumption. Indirectly, through reflection upon their honorific expensiveness, a social worth is imputed to them; and so, by an easy substitution of words and ideas, they come to be admired and reputed beautiful. Since any attention bestowed upon these animals is in no sense gainful or useful, it is also reputable; and since the habit of giving them attention is consequently not deprecated, it may grow into an habitual attachment of great tenacity and of a most benevolent character. So that in the affection bestowed on pet animals the canon of expensiveness is present more or less remotely as a norm which guides and shapes the sentiment and the selection of its object. The like is true, as will be noticed presently, with respect to affection for persons also; although the manner in which the norm acts in that case is somewhat different.


We are, piece by piece, dragging these cod atheists out of the closet. By a simple process of elimination we will eventually arrive at disreputable dick-work at the bottom of atheism.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:18 am
@Setanta,
I have formed emotional bonds with dogs, cats, chickens, a pig, a sparrow - The sparrow became attached to me when I tossed it the june bugs from the pool skimmers. When it saw me arrive at the scene it always broke from the rest and came near. The last time I saw it was two or three years ago. I was about to enter the shop, when it flew near my feet, with excited fluttering and sounds. That day, I had nothing for it. I don't know how long sparrows live.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:29 am
I looked around online, and it seems they live two or three years, and might live ten years in captivity. It seems to me that the prevalent attitude that we are somehow different from and superior to the other animals arises from, at least in part, religious cant. You know, the old dominion over the earth crapola. Largely, whether religion is involved or not, it's likely to be the same attitude that motivates tribalism. Humans are both contemptuous of and fear (with good reason) the other animals.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:37 am
@Setanta,
Well, since we are ambidextrous eaters of both flesh and okra, we have also that deep seated need to go to market for hamburgers and pretzels. I imagine those burgers make us somewhat callous, also.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:43 am
Even before hamburgers . . . in the The Odyssey, the author repeated recounts how they would offer a sacrifice to the gods, burning the carcass of a bull and pouring out a libation. Of course, they kept the best cuts of the bull for themselves, and didn't pour out too much of the libation. The text frequently notes how they put their hands of the good things that were there for them to eat.

I'm a firm believer in hamburger . . . pretzels, not so much.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
To a degree or another yes. IMO Christianity placed greater emphasis on it that Islam and Judaism. I don't know what Buddha had to say about love...

(not interested in political correctness; just saying things as I see them.)
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:47 am
Lots of folks become pals with horses, but I have never felt close to one, even though I have been around a number of them. We just don't look one another in the eye, and say, "I like you," the way like it is with dogs.
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 05:47 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Real life . . . no, there's no app for that. -- Setanta, March, 2014


There is. It is called The Book of Etiquette. Whether it is any good or not is a matter of personal taste.

Prof. John Gray agrees with Setanta that humans are no different from animals and lower organisms. He says that atheism and humanism both exhibit the same cant and that it derives from the same crapola and that evolution theory would not have raised an eyebrow in Indian culture.

As long as the "prevalent attitude" is Christian it doesn't really matter whether God exists or not.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 06:06 am
@hingehead,
Love predates religion and indeed, it may well predate man. Yet it is re-enforced or not by culture.

And they are many kinds of love. Jesus mainly stressed love for the poor and the downtrodden, and love for all including one's enemies. He had little to say about carnal or romantic love, inexperienced as he was...

I am not saying Christianity is better. Be careful with those strawmen, you use them a bit too often. But religions are different; as tempting as it is to lump them all together, they bring various stuff to the table. They all haved their strengths and their weaknesses. I were from India, I hope I would find it in myself to help the poor and the dying instead of leaving all that work to some Mother Theresa or another.

Even the Talmud recognises indirectly that Christians are good with charity.

And this value, of caring for the poot, one of the very few that Europe adopted from the Judeo-Christian tradition, is important to me and I glad to see that many secular groups in Europe have kept up with it.
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 06:18 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I glad to see that many secular groups in Europe have kept up with it.


They wouldn't have much traction if they didn't.
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 06:28 am
@edgarblythe,
Many of them speak of horses as highly intelligent. I am mystified by that. They may be intelligent in their own ways, but they're not in the same league as dogs and pigs.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 07:55 am

In the wake of Bill Nye the Science Guy’s recent debate with young earth creationist Ken Ham, the online media giant BuzzFeed ran a piece entitled “22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution.”

The premise of the piece was simple: ask 22 creationists to pose whatever question they wanted to evolutionists, write it down and hold their questions up on a piece of paper for the camera.

BuzzFeed was admirably quiet on the ideological fodder of the piece, leaving it open to the interpretations of viewers and commenters. But the folks over at The Science of Sarcasm took an opportunity too good to pass up, translating the questions into language they think might reveal a little bit of what could be behind the creationist train of thought.

http://deadstate.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-09-at-2.10.36-PM.png
http://deadstate.org/buzzfeeds-22-messages-from-creationists-gets-translated-by-science-lovers-and-the-results-are-hilarious/
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 10:50 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Even before hamburgers . . . in the The Odyssey,


I hope nobody has been gulled into thinking Setanta has read Homer.

Regarding sparrows Homer tells of Odysseus seeing a snake emerge from under a rock and climb up a tree to a nest of sparrows. It first eats the nine nestlings and then the mother. This is presented as an augury that the siege of Troy will take nine years and will succeed in the tenth.

Which identifies Trojans with sparrows and the Greeks with the mighty, devouring serpent.

Yes--the very same one.
panzade
 
  2  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 10:54 am
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/s526x395/1621856_1407561626178485_1365758807_n.jpg
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 10:55 am
@spendius,
Knowledge of Christian history, and of the Bible, on this thread, is not unlike knowledge, claimed by tangential allusion, of theoretical physics on the basis of being able to spell "quantum".

Which is not an exaggeration.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 10:59 am
@panzade,
The thinking was provided in advance. All you need to do is sign up and automatically have all the answers.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:02 am
@panzade,
That was very appropriate, as we've had many, many god-botherers who have shown up here and tried to peddle the same BS about the second law. Often, if you tell them it's not a closed system and mention the sun, they don't get it because they don't understand the second law of thermodynamics in the first place--they're just parroting something they read online.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:02 am
@Olivier5,
Buddha's teaching is do no harm to living things. That, IMHO, is the ultimate love.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:19 am
@spendius,
Quote:
They wouldn't have much traction if they didn't.

Indeed. In France the charity called "Secours Populaire" was started by the Communist Party in 1936 as a way to counter-balance the influence of another, older charity called the "Secours Catholique" (aka Caritas France, equivalent to CRS in the US). That was a deliberate strategy to steal the Catholic Church's thunder.

Both groups are still operating and doing pretty good job...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 2 Apr, 2014 11:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
Code:Buddha's teaching is do no harm to living things. That, IMHO, is the ultimate love.

Not sure it's that easy. Are all species equally worthy of our love? Should we let a kid die of starvation rather than kill a chicken to feed him, for instance? The love for all creation can also be used to de-emphasise the love for our fellow humans.
0 Replies
 
 

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