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Betting on assassinations and terror attacks

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 09:20 am
Thomas - Thanks for sharing the excellent citation. I knew I wasn't a nutcase for seeing something valid in this, and I also know I'm no cheerleader for Bush (it just seems that way to those who think he's the anti-Christ).
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 09:31 am
Thomas
The article is full of what if's, they didn't mean, people misunderstood , presented poorly, try it you may like it and etc. Apparently the congress did not see it that way and in fact neither did Wolfowitz
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 09:39 am
au1929 wrote:
Thomas
The article is full of what if's, they didn't mean, people misunderstood , presented poorly, try it you may like it and etc. Apparently the congress did not see it that way and in fact neither did Wolfowitz

More importantly however, it informs us that what caused the popular outrage wasn't actually part of the project. The morale-mongers, including yourself, didn't bother to check their facts before pointing their fingers in righteous anger. Let me point out the relevant paragraph for you.

Refuting common wisdom about the evilness of the enterprise, the New York Times wrote:

In any event, assassination futures were not among the planned securities, contrary to most press reports. The market design allowed traders to propose securities in various events, and the Policy Analysis Market Web site speculated that some traders might propose to add securities in assassinations. That off-the-cuff speculative remark had fatal consequences, alas.


--Thomas
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 09:58 am
Thomas
Quote:
More importantly however, it informs us that what caused the popular outrage wasn't actually part of the project. The morale-mongers, including yourself, didn't bother to check their facts before pointing their fingers in righteous anger.


When this was announced the facts you speak of were neither available or presented. Those that caused the public outrage were.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 10:25 am
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
I fail to see what is wrong in tapping any resource we can that might help predict--and thereby prevent--future acts of terrorism.


au1929 wrote:
Scrat
My friend unfortunately you fail to see anything that this administration does as wrongheaded. Apparently members of congress did. Rumsfeld [little Caesar] has allowed the power he wields to infect him mentally. His next assignment should be in an asylum, as an inmate.


au -- if you're right and nothing except Scrat's alleged pro-Bush bias explains his favorable opinion of this futures market in terrorism, how come the leading liberal newspapers of the country agree with Scrat and disagree with you? ?



Varian's article was not the opinion of the New York Times on this issue -- and for you to infer that it was is not up to your ususal standards, Thomas.

The New York Times and the Washington Post both apparently published Varian's essay as an op ed piece. But to characterize op ed articles in those two newspapers with the words: "... how come the leading liberal newspapers of the country agree with Scrat and disagree with you?" borders on dishonesty.

Can you furnish editorial positions on this issue from these two newspapers?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 11:38 am
Frank --

After you cried foul, I Googled the sites of the Washington Post and the New York Times for the key words "terrorism, futures market". Based on this search, it appears that both have chosen not to take an editorial position on the subject and publish two op-eds instead. In both cases, one of the op-eds turned out unequivocally in favor of these futures-markets. These were the two I found first and linked to. And in both cases, the other op-ed (New York Times, Washington Post) said they don't think it's such a good idea, but that DARPA has an explicit mission to explore unconventional projects, was just doing its job, and thus doesn't deserve the ridicule and abuse it got. These articles I didn't know about when I posted links to the first ones, but even they don't come close to condemning the project as fiercely as the Congressmen did.

Given that the choice of op-ed contributors is itself an editorial decision, this adds up to a picture that's somewhat weaker than what I originally said. But not weak enough by a long shot to justify your claim of borderline dishonesty -- especially since I was explicitly saying they were Op Eds! You might also want to reconsider the context I was referring to and which I cited. Reacting to a factual point Scrat had made, AU responded with a personal attack and attributed Scrat's dissent to his alleged Bush bias. My point was that if this had been all there was to it, the New York Times and the Washington Post wouldn't have published the opinions they did. I continue to stand by this point even now.

-- Thomas
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 12:25 pm
The New York Times and The Washington Post have, for many years, often published op-eds by people whose views were diametrically opposed by the editorial pages directly beside them. And many times these views contradicted what was stated by a member of the same group. For instance, op-eds by Scowcroft and James Baker were interesting to read, but certainly did not reflect the views of the government in power, nor did the Times indicate they were held by any but the writer.

This is one of the strengths of a good newspaper - to present various outlooks and opinions. Varian has an interesting take on this particular subject, but it certainly does not represent the opinions of the New York Times. There is an interesting precursor to this in the NY Times of May 8, 2003 (financial section of the Times), called "Economic Scene; Can markets be used to help people make a non-market decision?" I think this is now archived by the Times.

At any rate, while the idea itself has interest, it did seem to represent an arcade computer game, and represented standards that were morally low. Further, the idea looks more like a Las Vegas bet thing than a market play. This may have been one of the basic ideas - to tempt the guy who has stopped playing the market but is still playing his computer game and placing bets to come back and invest.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 12:56 pm
Thomas wrote:

Given that the choice of op-ed contributors is itself an editorial decision, this adds up to a picture that's somewhat weaker than what I originally said. But not weak enough by a long shot to justify your claim of borderline dishonesty -- especially since I was explicitly saying they were Op Eds! You might also want to reconsider the context I was referring to and which I cited. Reacting to a factual point Scrat had made, AU responded with a personal attack and attributed Scrat's dissent to his alleged Bush bias. My point was that if this had been all there was to it, the New York Times and the Washington Post wouldn't have published the opinions they did. I continue to stand by this point even now.


Thomas, as I have said in the past, you are one of the most impressive posters on A2K and I appreciate and enjoy your take on issues even when I am 180 degrees out of synch with them.

However, I want to point out some things here.

Not only did you "explicitly say they were Op Eds" -- you also explicitly said "...if you're right and nothing except Scrat's alleged pro-Bush bias explains his favorable opinion of this futures market in terrorism, HOW COME THE LEADING LIBERAL NEWSPAPERS OF THE COUNTRY AGREE WITH SCRAT AND DISAGREE WITH YOU?"

That is rather an important element of what you said, wouldn't you agree, Thomas. And wouldn't you also agree that saying what you said there distorts the reality of what the Washington Post and New York Times actually did say with regard to the issue -- which you now say is nothing.

It isn't "nothing", by the way. Here's is an editorial from the New York Times


New York Times Editorial, July 30
"The time has ... come to send Mr Poindexter packing and to shut down the wacky espionage operation he runs at the Pentagon ... The insensitivity of [its latest] idea boggles the mind. Quite apart from the tone-deafness of equating terrorist attacks with, say, corn futures, the plan would allow speculators - even terrorists - to profit from anonymous bets on future attacks. The project's theoretical underpinnings are equally absurd. Markets do not always operate perfectly in the larger world of stocks and bonds. The idea that they can reliably forecast the behaviour of isolated terrorists is ridiculous.
"The 'policy analysis market' would actually have opened for business on October 1 had senators Ron Wyden and Byron Dorgan not blown the whistle ... In light of the revelations about the latest Poindexter scheme, Congress ... should close his operation for good."

Now...who do you think that editorial opinion favors, Thomas?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 02:06 pm
Thomas
Quote:
The morale-mongers, including yourself, didn't bother to check their facts before pointing their fingers in righteous anger.


Yes, Now who do you suppose should be checking their facts.

As for Scrat he can, I know defend himself. AS to his bias there is no doubt that it is full bore in favor of Bush and the republicans.
As to you I envy you ability to write and express yourself but seldom agree with the content.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 02:39 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
And wouldn't you also agree that saying what you said there distorts the reality of what the Washington Post and New York Times actually did say with regard to the issue -- which you now say is nothing.

What I actually said was "based on this search, it appears..."

Would you mind posting a link please? I'd like to read the full article.

Frank Apisa wrote:
That is rather an important element of what you said, wouldn't you agree, Thomas.

As it happens, I wouldn't. The purpose of the sentence was directed against AU's assertion that there was nothing more to Scrat's support of the idea than his alleged inability to disagree with the Bush administration. The links I posted are good enough to refute that, even if the quote you turned up is representative of the whole article it is excerpted from.

As a matter of fact, I will give you another article to support my point against AU since we're at it. It comes from Barron's, a subsidary of the conservative, pro-Bush Wall Street Journal, and it trashes the idea. That's the whole point I was trying to make: There's more to this matter than just moral outrage, and AU was a dumbass to reduce Scrat's stand to political bias.

Barron's magazine, whose political affiliations are at least as conservative as Scrat's, wrote:

Killer Idea

HAVING TRIED INTELLIGENCE to win the war on terrorism and achieved mixed results -- bad and worse -- the defense establishment has decided to go the other way and give stupidity a chance.

To effect the delicate switch required someone with proven credentials. Luckily, Rummy and cohorts didn't have far to look for just such a man -- Adm. Pointyhead.

Adm. Pointyhead runs a semi-clandestine operation within the Department of Defense known as Darpa (an acronym for Determinedly Asinine Research Projects Administration). Pointyhead -- this may surprise you -- isn't his real name. It's a nom de guerre (but refrain from using that phrase, as the admiral might see that you get sent to Guantanamo for consorting with an enemy language).

Pointyhead's bona fides for the assignment were impeccable. He's a man of notable conviction. He was, for example, convicted of lying to Congress (the conviction was annulled on the eminently just grounds that Congress, in its wisdom, had granted immunity to the admiral to lie to it).

To his great credit, moreover, it was on Pointyhead's watch that Darpa launched one of its most determinedly asinine projects, Total Information Awareness, aimed at nothing less than protecting America from the evilest of evildoers. The idea was to compile the most complete electronic dossiers, including every conceivable bit of vital dope, from shoe size and blood-alcohol content to the sincerity of acts of compassion (do they help old people cross the street or only rich old people?) on millions of American citizens deemed possible terrorists or short sellers.

To date, Total Information Awareness has had rather a meager yield -- two recovering short sellers and one suspected tall terrorist (the name on his driver's license, Irving bin Laden, struck the gimlet-eyed electronic surveillers as not quite kosher). To be fair, all the bugs have yet to be worked out of the surveillance system (and we're not talking about the ones actually running the system).

The admiral's latest and most daunting mission was to advance the war on terrorism by coming up with a bold and unorthodox approach to gathering intelligence, since the old way wasn't doing the job. For help, he turned to the California Institute of Technology, famed far and wide for out-of-the-box solutions to seemingly insuperable problems.

Aided and abetted by that prestigious center of learning, Darpa devised the Policy Analysis Market, which was not only way out of the box but completely off the wall. The stunning concept called for the creation of a futures market where traders could bet on war, assassination or the monster terrorist act of their choice.

The grave responsibility for running this online casino of catastrophe fell on Net Exchange, an entity made up of 10 stalwart Cal Tech faculty members, all of whom, as evidence of expertise, had to have consistently lost money going long pork bellies. Their grand vision called for some 10,000 traders taking positions on the likelihood of potential calamities in that normally tranquil part of the world encompassing Iraq, Israel, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Turkey.

And, why, you might wonder as we did, would commodities traders desert their usual wholesome fare of oil, wheat and the like to take a flier on Middle Eastern mayhem? For the sheer thrill of it, of course. But also because, down deep, they're keen to do their part in the war on terrorism.

We must confess to being a trifle bemused, though, as to just how buying a contract, say, on Yassar Arafat's assassination or the fundamentalists putting the sword to the royals in Saudi Arabia or a suicide bombing in Jerusalem constitutes a blow against terrorism. But, then, we never went to the California Institute of Technology or broke bread with Pointyhead or any of the other Darpa doyens.

If we had, we'd have instantaneously known the answer and recognized the awesome elegance of the concept, brilliant in its simplicity, of turning your average normal murderous terrorist into a holy terror of a speculator by luring him to trade in calamity. A concept marvelously captured in the slogan Darpa adopted to promote its new exchange: "Make money, not war."

What's that? You think that's plain silly. You're right, of course. But no more silly than any of the other rationales being served up to gloss what was, is and always will be an absolutely daft idea. Apparently, once our alert congressfolk found out what they had voted for, their agitation knew no bounds, assuring the futures exchange had no future. As for dear old Adm. Pointyhead, rumor has it he's due to walk the plank.

This misbegotten creation, as noted, was spawned in academe and a smattering of professorial types, mostly from business schools, rose to its defense with an impressive array of specious reasoning. Which once again proves the wisdom of George Bernard Shaw's dictum that those who can't do, teach.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 02:44 pm
Quote:
There's more to this matter than just moral outrage, and AU was a dumbass to reduce Scrat's stand to political bias.


I would not limit "dumbass" to just AU there are lots of us "dumbass" people here.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 02:53 pm
mamajuama wrote:
The New York Times and The Washington Post have, for many years, often published op-eds by people whose views were diametrically opposed by the editorial pages directly beside them.

Thanks! If this is the case, these newspapers work differently than the leading newspapers in the German speaking world (FAZ and Sueddeutsche Zeitung). We generally don't have a separate Op-Ed page, and the opinions of contributors tend to be in line with the overall orientation of the paper. Exceptions occur when the contributors are very prominent (think ministers, governors, or party leaders) or specialized experts in fields where the permanently employed don't have a qualified opinion.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:01 pm
Quote:
Thomas
There's more to this matter than just moral outrage, and AU was a dumbass to reduce Scrat's stand to political bias.


To begin with my intercource with Scrat is none of your business. And I would also suggest you mind your manners you phony creep.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:14 pm
Well, Thomas, this is a side of you that I have not seen before -- and I am sorry I am seeing it now.

The original posting was as follows:

Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
I fail to see what is wrong in tapping any resource we can that might help predict--and thereby prevent--future acts of terrorism.


au1929 wrote:
Scrat
My friend unfortunately you fail to see anything that this administration does as wrongheaded. Apparently members of congress did. Rumsfeld [little Caesar] has allowed the power he wields to infect him mentally. His next assignment should be in an asylum, as an inmate.


au -- if you're right and nothing except Scrat's alleged pro-Bush bias explains his favorable opinion of this futures market in terrorism, how come the leading liberal newspapers of the country agree with Scrat and disagree with you? The New York Times and the Washington Post have both defended these markets in their op-ed pages. The New York Times article will become unfree soon, so I'll quote it in full length here. The Washington post is similar in spirit. There's also an article on Tech Central Station that addresses the concerns raised by the senators in somewhat more detail.


Thomas, the leading liberal newspapers of the country do not agree with Scrat and disagree with au. You were absolutely wrong there. And I have shown that you are.

Now you want to say: that "the purpose of the sentence was directed against AU's assertion that there was nothing more to Scrat's support of the idea than his alleged inability to disagree with the Bush administration." And you want to assert that "The links I posted are good enough to refute that, even if the quote you turned up is representative of the whole article it is excerpted from. "

How can you possibly stonewall like that?

If the purpose of your sentence was simply to refute the notion that Scrat's support of the idea is such and such -- why did you use the phrase "...how come the leading liberal newspapers of the country agree with Scrat and disagree with you? "

THEY DON'T!

Jeez, I thought you were the kind of person above this kind of thing. I cannot tell you how disappointed I am that I was wrong -- and I damn well was wrong.


Thomas wrote:
Would you mind posting a link please? I'd like to read the full article.


It is not an article -- it is an editorial. And that is the entire editorial. You can look it up by date at the New York Times site.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:21 pm
Frank
I am not surprised and I believe this had nothing to do with Scrat. We have disagreed before it is probably just a carry over.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:23 pm
dyslexia
Thanks for the vote of confidence Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:28 pm
I'm having a hard time figuring out who yelled at whom first, and it doesn't really matter that much, but I would like to add that we might want to adopt a vocabulary we all understand!

I gave a link to Hal Varian's NYTimes piece calling it an "analysis." Which it was, pretty much. How about we confine the term "op-ed" or "opinion piece" to those printed in the Op[inion] and Ed[itorial] section of the paper. Except for the editors' opinions, they are signed and there's usually a squib saying who the writer is, which tends to illuminate their opinions ("at the Hoover Institute" for example), and in most newspapers I read there's a fair spread from right to left.

Hal Varian's piece is probably a "commentary," and if you all agree, let's try and agree on these or other descriptive terms so we all know what we're talking about.

We really need to get sharper about separating comment from report -- the media have been getting away with blurring the lines for much too long.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 03:50 pm
au1929 wrote:
As for Scrat ... AS to his bias there is no doubt that it is full bore in favor of Bush and the republicans.

You keep making this claim and I keep having to point out to you that there is a pretty wide chasm between your irrational hatred of Bush and the blind adulation of which you accuse me. I neither hate nor love Bush. I am glad he is in office but disappointed in what he has done so far with his tenure there. You assume that because I argue against ignorant anti-Bush rhetoric that it means I am blindly pro-Bush. Has it ever occurred to you that some people might simply not be as against him as you? I consider him a better option than any Democrat out there, and a far better man and leader than our previous president.

You claim that Bush is Satan, and I counter that he's just a man. From this you infer that I lack the ability to see flaws in him or his administration, when it is far more reasonable to infer from your position that you lack the ability to see anything positive there.

TIP: I am not YIN to your YANG where Bush is concerned. That you perceive it that way is a product of your bias.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 04:02 pm
"dumbass"? "phoney creep"?

Neener, neener, neener... :wink:
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Aug, 2003 10:54 pm
Agree, agree, Tart. Language is important. As for Thomas, I've just now understood something from his reply to me. I take for granted that everyone knows that opinion pieces in most newspapers are separate from editorial pages, and now I see that, at least in some German papers, this is not so. So we may have been somewhat at cross purposes here.

And I think slugging it out sometimes is helpful - most of us who like to discuss politics are anything but shrinking violets, and Lord knows we hold cherished opinions. Although I really don't know anybody who cherishes Poindexter. He was a poor choice from the beginning, as were so many of the Bush people, which explains why we are in the condition we are in today. And I don't think au was a dumbass (is that a real word?) to reduce scrat's stand to political bias. First, it was political bias. Second, it didn't even look like a stand to me, much less one that could be reduced.
0 Replies
 
 

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