NYC's Gay High School

Gautam, you said it was about setting a precedent. I answered that it's not new.

Let me go look up some realities for ya.

Here:

http://www.nmha.org/pbedu/backtoschool/bullyingGayYouth.cfm

(The numbers correspond to papers published 1998-2002.)

Soz, I have never disputed the gact that GLTB students face more bullying at schools than your "average" student. But the solution to this problem is not segregation, is it ?

I think that those gay men (I don't know many gay women) that I know would think this not such a good idea. I agree with Sozobe that at 100 students, it might not be something to be concerned about. And, I agree with the assessment that you can learn well while be bullied and such. But it, as always, seems to be an issue of treating the symptoms instead of the cause. I hate that. But, what to do?

But is creating one school for 100 people "segregation" in any broad sense?

I keep bringing up girls-only and blacks-only schools because while they exist, and for very similar reasons, not everyone decides to go to them. In fact, students there are a miniscule percentage of the total number of students in America.

If this was legislation stating that all gay and lesbian youth must be segregated into their own schools, yeah, I'd be pissed. But this is one little measly school, and I don't think that it's going to ever be a phenomenon for more than a tiny percentage of total gay and lesbian students in America. If there is a place for the ones who can't cope -- the ones who would otherwise drop out or even commit suicide -- what is the harm?

U are right. However, it does provide an easy way out for people who can't cope. We have to learn to stand up to the minority who think that we are abnormal.

Just saw your latest post, littlek.

I think this could help bring about the cure by helping to create confident, poised, knowledgeable people who can go and be leaders and role models, who can themselves create more "cure" programs in mainstream schools, etc. That is something I have seen in all of the instances I've cited so far -- girls/women, black people, and Deaf people.

Gautam, of course people should learn how to stand up for themselves, but what those stats are saying is that a lot of them can't. Just can't. I'd infinitely prefer that those who cann't cope attend a gay/lesbian HS rather than committing suicide.

Which brings me to another thought, the comfort that knowing such a HS exists to the lonely, isolated kid in Podunk, Kansas. Knowing that if it gets too terrible at home, the Harvey Milk HS in New York City is an option. This knowledge in and of itself can be powerful.

I agree soz - but the whole thing does make me sad, now that I see the reason (and thanks for that, I never thoight of it this way) behind this.

Anyone got a list of the curricula?

Do u think that it would be different ???

I agree with your "What's the harm?" idea based on the small numbers Soz. It is one school with a few students.

It is a precedent though. Do you think there wouldn't be a massive outcry if the City of NY established a high school for whites only? The ACLU would be filing a suit on the City before the announcement was completed.

I'm with Sugar. This smells like segregation. Even voluntary segregation is a problem. Even perfectly equal schools are a problem, long as they're separate (I don't love all-girls' schools, etc., for the same reason).

I also wonder what job and collegiate opportunities will be like for these kids when they graduate. An employer asks, "Where'd ya go to High School?" The applicant answers, "The Harvey Milk School." To which the employer thinks, hmm, this person is gay and won't fit into my company. The employer finds some other, less illegal, method of denying employment. Same with college admissions committees. Hey, this kid went to the Milk School, I hear that's the gay school. Application denied, but the reason given is - too many applicants or the grades weren't good enough or whatever.

I tend to wonder where this ends... On the one hand, I'm all for creative solutions to ensure kids get educated, but what's next; a separate school for wimps, nerds and geeks? They also tend to be preyed upon at school, and it seems logical that they would fare better in a setting where they weren't constantly getting their asses kicked. Does that justify the expense of setting up a separate school for them?

First, Gautam, you are THE most gracious debator I've ever met.



First, this school isn't really for gay and lesbians only... the "questioning" thing establishes that. And they can't, legally, turn anyone down for sexual orientation and only sexual orientation. So a more close example would be a school that, what, celebrates Irish culture. It would be more likely to draw white students (of Irish descent) but if there were a few black students with an Irish ancestor, there's nothing they could do about it.

But, again, in terms of precedent etc., there ARE black charter schools, there have been for a while, and they don't seem to have caused any huge upheaval in how things work.

Here's one:

http://www.uca-atlanta.com/whyuca.htm

The language is careful to avoid saying that they are black-only -- again, that is illegal. But I found them in an article about the partnership with Morehouse, an historically black college, and how they wanted a school that had the same benefits/ ideals.

I figure that in a democratic society, an abundance of choice is always paramount. Not all proposals get sanctioned by the government, but those that do simply offer an alternative to the average. I think a knee-jerk "we are giving in to the special interest groups" reaction is a tad premature in this situation.

I have very mixed feelings on this. Reading with interest.

On the one hand, I am fully in agreement with the folks who think that this is another form of "separate-but-equal," and the racial comparison does have some merit here. When I was born, my family was one of the very few white families in Richmond, CA, and my sister was the only white kid in her class. The hazing she experienced -- and she bore the additional burden of being a red-haired, four-eyed child of smelly hippies in bad homemade clothes -- was routine and, from what I've gathered talking to her, pretty frightening. She was chased home from school on a regular basis. However, I certainly couldn't sanction the city setting up a separate school for the white hippie kids who lived there -- certainly not on the public dime.

At the same time, the "philosophically this is wrong" argument isn't going to hold water for the traumatized kid who wants to go to the Harvey Milk School; this kid is up against a slate of socially sanctioned behavior that is wrong on a daily basis. (Goddamn, I think about the redneck school I ended up attending -- and the general level of violence there had been curtailed through years of concerted effort...) Still, I suspect many of the kids who would benefit most from the school will be denied access as spots are filled by more well-to-do families who are more adept at the paperwork, at the screening process, at pulling strings than they are. The magnet schools in New York aren't necessarily full of kids who have no other possibility of obtaining a decent education, who would otherwise be languishing in substandard public schools; many of the students get in by virtue of where they live, and if they hadn't been admitted their parents would have been willing and able to send them to private schools. Is that a problem? Not necessarily -- there's no reason the privileged should be denied a decent public education by virtue of their status.

Okay, that's a ramble. Short answer: on a practical level, I don't necessarily think that the kids who would benefit most from such a school -- those with no support at home to help them deal with their problems at school -- are going to have any access to it. NYC public schools don't have the best track record of self improvement.



Still, it's hard for me to get really worked up about a tiny school somewhere when there are much, much, much larger problems to be addressed in public education.

Sozobe - I too thought of the efforts at creating black-only schools when I saw this. Most--if not all--of which I've heard have been soundly decried by many on the left as separatist and therefor bad. Again, I tend to favor what works over what seems correct.

I see no difference at all -- but then again, I have no problem with segregation as long as it is a result of voluntary self-selection, as opposed to Jim Crow style legislation. So if the gay teenagers of New York want their own high school, why not?