Another question....

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Well I must be a sucker for punishment, but here goes (see my previous thread about my wife going to Europe for more background).

Okay. So she's in Europe. From what her and her friend have said, they met up with two Australian guys in Budapest and went out with them drinking to some dance spots. When they told them about the music festival they were going to, the guys decided to change their plans and travel with my wife and her friend 6 hours in the other direction to go to the music festival. They did, and my wife seems to have spent a lot of time with the one guy. She ended up toward the end of the concert on his shoulders. Here's the question: is this the kind of thing a husband and wife should talk about? I mean, this may just be more of my insecurities etc., but I'm not sure I should just automatically be assumed to be okay with her:

- sharing her vacation with another guy
- drinking and partying with him until the early hours
- traveling together for hour upon hour
- getting on his shoulders at a rock festival

...again I ask the same question, is this more paranoia on my part or should she have at least talked to me about it to find out if I was okay with these things? Yes, her friend and another guy were there most of the time.

When she called last night I told her that me and Rob had had a few girls over for 4th of July. She was too tired really to bite, so I told her I was just kidding, that her friend's husband and I had decided that since they thought it was okay to be traveling with these Australian guys the whole time that we'd pretend we had some girls over for the 4th. She laughed and said, 'You don't have a problem with it, though, do you?' I said 'Ummmm well sitting on shoulders and traveling together and partying together late into the night.... maybe....!' She said, 'Oh it's okay really, actually we've all talked about this stuff for quite a long time, I wish I had time to explain to you but really, everything is okay.'

I guess I just wish, AGAIN, that I hadn't been blindsided by revelations of the kind of things she hasn't even done with me being done with a guy I've never met in an uninhibited vacation. If I'm wrong for feeling uncomfortable about THIS, I don't know what I need.

EDIT to say: it feels like thoughtlessness on her part at the very least, since I know if the tables were turned that I'd want to reassure her on every level and talk her through any feelings she had about it. Wouldn't any wife feel the same way if she heard that her guy was spending his vacation dancing with other girls, traveling with them and sitting on his shoulders for concerts?

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I think it's time you get yourself some concert tickets and have a good time with some buds (and maybe put a girl or two on your shoulders!)
Tell her about it and maybe send her a couple pics of you getting your ears boxed by another woman's thighs.

Then we'll see how she feels about all this bs.

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I dunno, irishhusband. That was kind of the premise of the trip, right? That even though she's married and has a child, she's young yet (24?) and wants to spend some time traveling and being young.

If she were the one writing here I'd caution her against the shoulder-riding thing -- I don't think it's much in and of itself but I do think it's playing with fire a bit, and that even if she has the purest intentions, these guys might get the wrong idea.

That's still "might," though -- it doesn't go the other way, that it's definitely bad enough that of course you have every right to be upset and... And? There's the rub. If you're upset about it, what do you do about it exactly? I don't see that the "infraction" is bad enough that anything beyond a simple statement that you're somewhat uncomfortable with it and hope she's being really careful will accomplish much. Ordering her home at this point is a bad idea IMO, as is any variety of lecturing or telling her how she SHOULD be reacting to your discomfort.

I've traveled a fair amount and have friends who travel a LOT and send me accounts of their journeys -- travelers meeting up for a while and then going on their own ways is very common. Women traveling alone often like to connect with some nice men who offer an element of protection just by being present, even if nothing romantic happens.

I think that the fact that she's with her married friend is important. How is Rob dealing with all of this? That's great that you guys are getting together in the wives' absence.

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Re: Another question....

irishhusband wrote:

EDIT to say: it feels like thoughtlessness on her part at the very least, since I know if the tables were turned that I'd want to reassure her on every level and talk her through any feelings she had about it. Wouldn't any wife feel the same way if she heard that her guy was spending his vacation dancing with other girls, traveling with them and sitting on his shoulders for concerts?

It's all summed up in his edit - she is being thoughtless (even if she doesn't think she is.) The point is, she is making him feel bad while she has a good ol' time, AND she's rubbing it in his face from long distance.

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Honestly, I just feel insecure. I feel lucky to be with her in the first place and I was her first boyfriend, and I know other guys find her attractive and it freaks me out what they might do. Part of it is protective I know, because I don't mind it happening when I'm right there with her (in fact I kind of enjoy it). But when she's gone like this - even though I DO trust her a LOT - I get really really uncomfortable and jealous - it's jealousy, plain and simple. But I agree Sozobe, I don't want to make her feel bad about doing this because I never want her to either (A) regret having fun and thus see me as the boring bad guy and (B) I don't want her to simply withhold the information from me the next time it happens.

So here's the key: I don't want to make a big deal of this like I did with the Vegas thing et al. Nothing bad came out of our long conversations on Vegas and she never held it against me, but I don't want to start a pattern. So here's the questions....

1) how do I breach the topic without ruining her trip
2) do I want til she gets home?
3) how do I breach the topic!!!!
4) how much hurt do I let her see? I feel this is an important question because if she knew just how this stuff tears me apart it wouldn't be good I don't think.... she'd feel horrible...

Maybe I should just sit down beside her when she gets back and say Honey, I'm so glad you had a great time, but there's this little guy thing called jealousy, and you have no idea how jealous I was and you'll never know cause I'm not going to ruin your trip by telling you!, but I really would have appreciated a call just to give me the heads up and maybe keep me in the loop? I don't know.

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Send her a copy of your posts to this thread - because you're being completely honest and open to strangers about your feelings and that in itself says a lot.

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I'm sorry you asked how Rob is dealing with all this. Well he always seems to just roll with it and be real happy so yesterday I talked to him about it a little without letting him know how uncomfortable with it all I am... turns out he's a little more thoughtful about it than he lets his wife know. Things are slightly different for him though since she was something of a wild child when they met, had been with many guys before and is this "free spirit" that he knows what to expect maybe. My wife? She's just easily led, and easily inspired, and loves being around people that she's not like - which is why she gets along so well with Rob's wife. I think she's letting her hair down and doing stuff she never gets to do with a girl that's leading her into it all with gusto... she does things that she's never done with me. It makes me a little sad when she tells me that this concert was as good as any we've been to together and maybe better because she was up so close in a tight crowd of people and much more atmosphere (unfortunately when I get tickets to concerts we tend to be at the back where nobody's really into it!). It hurts me to hear things like that. WTF. It sometimes feels like I'm being left behind, even though I know that isn't the case.

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oh for pete's sake ... TELL HER!

Free spirit, bla bla bla..... if she wanted to be a 'free spirit' then maybe she shouldn't have gotten married and had a baby! She doesn't have her priorities straight and she's screwing with your head and stomping on your good heart!

Grow a pair and tell her how you feel about all this. And your friend Ron should do the same.

I can't friggin' believe all this! Rolling Eyes

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I'm with Happycat on this one. A married woman has no business doing what your wife is doing (nor does a married man, just so's you know.) At the very least she is putting herself in a position to be tempted to go further with this guy than she should. And temptation has a funny way of leading into adultery.

I think she was wrong to go on the "vacation" without you to begin with, but then I'm a bit old fashioned. I believe husbands and wives should do stuff together, not seperately. Tends to enhance a relationship. Go figure. Now that she is there though, you should make it clear to her that her actions with other men are unacceptable to you. In fact, I'd insist she come home immediately and if she does not, then when she gets home it would be to an empty house.

But that is just one clowns opinion based on 25 years of marriage. Take it for what you want.

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CoastalRat, I don't think he should demand that she come home immediately since he was agreeable to her going in the first place. That's water under the bridge, so to speak.
However, I definitely think he should start speaking out when she calls to let her know loud and clear how he feels about all this. If she starts to go on and on about what she's doing and who she's doing it with, he should just stop her in mid-sentence and tell her he doesn't care to hear about it since it obviously doesn't involve him and all it does is upset him and make him feel bad.

I feel sorry for you irishhusband, because once she gets home you're going to be forced to look at all the pics of her "singles" trip and listen ad nauseum to stories that you're not a part of. That's not a marriage - that's a friendship. Sad

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happycat wrote:

That's not a marriage - that's a friendship.

Not even that, friends dont make fun of you..

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Well let me stand up for my wife here a little... she does call me every day and email me constantly, and she has also said that she's looking forward to coming home. Would it be prudent of me to think of these activities as 'group' activities since it was not her and this guy alone but in the group of 4? The other guy (the one whose shoulders she didn't sit on) is gay, by the way. And she also says they've talked about this stuff together as a group, in other words that presumably they've discussed the fact that they are married and that there are boundaries etc.

The one thing I definitely don't want to do is to turn this positive experience for her into a negative one. There's been plenty that they've done without the guys, and she has been up front and hasn't held anything back from me; she just seems to be having a lot of fun. Also, the 2 guys have left now and they won't see them again.

I'm just trying to think about this from the other side of the equation, so to speak. It really is so difficult for me to know what is rational and justified in this situation and what's me being my normal jealous self. Thank you for your help.

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irishhusband wrote:

Well let me stand up for my wife here a little... she does call me every day and email me constantly, and she has also said that she's looking forward to coming home. Would it be prudent of me to think of these activities as 'group' activities since it was not her and this guy alone but in the group of 4? The other guy (the one whose shoulders she didn't sit on) is gay, by the way. And she also says they've talked about this stuff together as a group, in other words that presumably they've discussed the fact that they are married and that there are boundaries etc.

No, all you "know" is what she has told you. This could be the 100% honest truth or she could be telling you what you want to hear.

irishhusband wrote:

The one thing I definitely don't want to do is to turn this positive experience for her into a negative one. There's been plenty that they've done without the guys,

At least without these guys that she told you about.

irishhusband wrote:

and she has been up front and hasn't held anything back from me;

Who says? Your wife? The one who wanted to run off to Europe without you?

irishhusband wrote:

she just seems to be having a lot of fun.

Yep, sure sounds like it.

irishhusband wrote:

Also, the 2 guys have left now and they won't see them again.

At least she is telling you that. Of course, that could be the case. But you'll never know, will you?

irishhusband wrote:

I'm just trying to think about this from the other side of the equation, so to speak. It really is so difficult for me to know what is rational and justified in this situation and what's me being my normal jealous self. Thank you for your help.

You have every right to be jealous. Personally, I would wonder about a relationship where one party seems to enjoy running off on out of town trips without the other. Maybe I'm just not modern enough. But hey, whatever suits you. But unless this is what you want to put up with for the rest of this marriage, then you need to put your foot down when she gets home.

Happycat: I agree. The advice about asking her to come home immediately was wrong. As you pointed out, he gave his blessing for her to run off to Europe with a friend, so he gave up his right to demand she cut the trip short.

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sozobe wrote:

If she were the one writing here I'd caution her against the shoulder-riding thing -- I don't think it's much in and of itself but I do think it's playing with fire a bit, and that even if she has the purest intentions, these guys might get the wrong idea.

That's still "might," though -- it doesn't go the other way, that it's definitely bad enough that of course you have every right to be upset and... And? There's the rub. If you're upset about it, what do you do about it exactly? I don't see that the "infraction" is bad enough that anything beyond a simple statement that you're somewhat uncomfortable with it and hope she's being really careful will accomplish much. Ordering her home at this point is a bad idea IMO, as is any variety of lecturing or telling her how she SHOULD be reacting to your discomfort.

I agree, soz.

I'm more than a little curious about how this confession came to pass. If she called and presented a detailed accounting of how she spent her day and included the shoulder-riding thing as part of the description then she was thinking it was either totally innocent or is totally trying to push irishhusband's buttons. If it was all voluntary on her part then I think it's probably the former.

If he grilled her for details (something I can see him doing) and became more agitated as the story was told then I think he should stop asking questions about the minutia of her trip.

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No, this was her just rambling about her day. I know she wasn't trying to rub my face in anything; she just loves to keep me in the loop -- which is a great thing although I hate the way some of the things she's done makes me feel. The question is whether I feel that way justifiably or not.

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irishhusband wrote:

Well let me stand up for my wife here a little... she does call me every day and email me constantly, and she has also said that she's looking forward to coming home. Would it be prudent of me to think of these activities as 'group' activities since it was not her and this guy alone but in the group of 4? The other guy (the one whose shoulders she didn't sit on) is gay, by the way. And she also says they've talked about this stuff together as a group, in other words that presumably they've discussed the fact that they are married and that there are boundaries etc.

The one thing I definitely don't want to do is to turn this positive experience for her into a negative one. There's been plenty that they've done without the guys, and she has been up front and hasn't held anything back from me; she just seems to be having a lot of fun. Also, the 2 guys have left now and they won't see them again.

I'm just trying to think about this from the other side of the equation, so to speak. It really is so difficult for me to know what is rational and justified in this situation and what's me being my normal jealous self. Thank you for your help.

They were 2 guys you and your friend Ron never met and never will meet. The one she sat atop was (conveniently) gay.
If you want to think of your wife and her female friend going out with two other guys a "group acitivity" then I don't know what to tell ya.
The word gullible comes to mind though.

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You may be right but I trust her immensely; that's never been the issue for me. When she says they talked about it, I believe her absolutely, and no matter what his intentions are I know she'd never breach my trust with another guy. On the other hand I still remain extremely nervous about this whole situation.

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irishhusband wrote:

You may be right but I trust her immensely; that's never been the issue for me. When she says they talked about it, I believe her absolutely, and no matter what his intentions are I know she'd never breach my trust with another guy. On the other hand I still remain extremely nervous about this whole situation.

It is an issue with you because in the back of your mind you really don't know his intentions and it makes you nervous.

Therefore, she shouldn't be doing it at all if it makes you, her husband, nervous, and she won't know it makes you nervous unless you tell her.
She's your wife.....TALK to her!

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Well, I see 2 problems here:

1) You are *still* way too concerned about your wife's whereabouts...you are constantly thinking of her. I may be mistaken but that's how it seems to me from your posts - and if thats true, according to me, it's not healthy.

2) As soz said, she (I feel) is playing a bit with fire. Who knows - he might be lying he's gay..i wouldnt trust a stranger so easily....

And yeah, dont lecture her or ask her to come home or anything like that. I don't know, maybe you need to talk to each other about this issue - but you need to take care not to lecture her or say "you dont know how to take care of herself". You seem to treat her like a kid who doesnt know how to take care of herself.

My husband used to be controlling and obsessed with my whereabouts and we have gotten over this issue - that's why I'm trying to help.

He doesnt obsess over me anymore and therefore, but most of the time I ensure he knows if I'm going to be very late etc (and he does the same) but then either of us forget etc and it's fine to do so. When he used to try and monitor me obsessively I used "forget" quite often to call him (it's subconcious maybe).

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Well we finally talked, for a very very long time, on the phone tonight. Everything was talked about. She was very sweet and understanding, didn't think my fears were unfounded at all, and totally respected what I said. She said that she considered every move she made with me in mind, and basically if it wasn't something she would do if I was standing right beside her, it wasn't something she did.

Turns out her friend is a wild child and went totally crazy on this trip. She was wasted most of the time and very irresponsible if you ask me. She has this 'free spirit' you see. (What a crock.) Yet even in the face of this peer pressure my wife seems to have held her own.

I asked my wife how many times she said NO to something. She counted about 5 or 6 times, including refusing drinks, refusing to slow dance with guys and refusing drugs. She got a little tipsy for a while the night I was concerned about on my previous post; other than that she wasn't drunk in the slightest. This gives me great confidence because I totally trust my wife, it's only when her judgment is impaired that I have a problem.

We talked about every scenario and she understood very well why I would be nervous about them: she says that's why she always told me what had gone on. As for the shoulder-sitting, she said that's something she thought about for about half an hour, the length of time her friend was sitting up on the same guy's shoulders before her: she decided, if he asked her, that she would accept because she was very sure that there was no ulterior motive, that I wouldn't have a problem if I met this guy, and she wanted to see the concert from up there real bad. I told her that it bothered me and she said she was real sorry that it did, but she was certain that I would approve if I met this guy. I told her that I do trust her and that that sounded good enough for me.

We went through everything else too; like I say it was a long phonecall. She established her boundaries very well it seems. They had a long conversation about marriage and about the fact that they were married and their husbands allowed them to come because it was a marriage based on trust and that the boundaries were not only there but were fixed - the guys understood that from the beginning. The other interesting thing is the conversation that they had as the guys were leaving for another city. The one guy said that he had to admit, these girls were making him think twice about marriage! He said that he'd always assumed marriage was for being settled and predictable and boring, and yet right now he was envious of the girls' marriages and said it looked like something he could definitely do. So that was cool.

All in all I came away from this conversation relieved, very much more relaxed, at one with my wife, I feel like she handled herself very well, and she admitted that she could have been more proactive in keeping me informed and maybe even asking my advice. She says when I pick them up at the airport next week I should ask her friend how much she talked about me - it became a running joke among the group it seems.

This week has taken so much of an emotional toll on me due to my own insecurities, but at least I have a loving wife to work through them with, and at least I recognize that that's what they are. I basically feel undeserving of my wife, and that's at the root of my low feelings of self-worth sometimes that cause some of these issues. I do believe that my wife is one of the most loving and caring I could imagine, and I won't hesitate (I don't think!) to encourage her to experience things like this again.

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Another question....

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