World Condemns Bush for Decline of Human Rights in U.S.

Surely you get the point. Most human rights abuses that occur here, while not acceptable, are infinitessimal compared to what goes on in much of the rest of the world, China being a prime example.

This is, as i suspected was Brandon's purpose, a case of the "Oh Yeah? Well look how bad the other guy is!" type of argument. So, my neighbor beats his children and his wife, every night, with an electric cord (so there won't be marks to implicate him), and does not allow them to eat supper. Does that make acceptable that i should just slap The Girl around casually? Does that excuse abusive behavior on my part? Hardly--just because some clown on the other side of the county has killed his entire family with a shotgun doesn't mean that you can expect to get away with an unintentional act of vehicular homicide.

Setanta wrote:

This is, as i suspected was Brandon's purpose, a case of the "Oh Yeah? Well look how bad the other guy is!" type of argument. So, my neighbor beats his children and his wife, every night, with an electric cord (so there won't be marks to implicate him), and does not allow them to eat supper. Does that make acceptable that i should just slap The Girl around casually? Does that excuse abusive behavior on my part? Hardly--just because some clown on the other side of the county has killed his entire family with a shotgun doesn't mean that you can expect to get away with an unintentional act of vehicular homicide.

You can win all the arguments if you misrepresent the other person's position. I've never said the comparison justifies anything, and I don't think that it does. However, what I am saying is not complicated, and I don't see why you persistently misrepresent it. What I have said is that there ought to be some perspective. I don't like to see statements by the left and by people in other countries that seem to imply that the US is among the worst violaters. I don't like to see most of the condemnation directed at us. Human rights abuses in the US shouldn't be accepted, acquiesced to, or allowed, but they are truly infinitessimal compared to those in many, many other countries such as China and Russia.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Setanta wrote:

This is, as i suspected was Brandon's purpose, a case of the "Oh Yeah? Well look how bad the other guy is!" type of argument. So, my neighbor beats his children and his wife, every night, with an electric cord (so there won't be marks to implicate him), and does not allow them to eat supper. Does that make acceptable that i should just slap The Girl around casually? Does that excuse abusive behavior on my part? Hardly--just because some clown on the other side of the county has killed his entire family with a shotgun doesn't mean that you can expect to get away with an unintentional act of vehicular homicide.

You can win all the arguments if you misrepresent the other person's position. I've never said the comparison justifies anything, and I don't think that it does. However, what I am saying is not complicated, and I don't see why you persistently misrepresent it. What I have said is that there ought to be some perspective. I don't like to see statements by the left and by people in other countries that seem to imply that the US is among the worst violaters. I don't like to see most of the condemnation directed at us. Human rights abuses in the US shouldn't be accepted, acquiesced to, or allowed, but they are truly infinitessimal compared to those in many, many other countries such as China and Russia.

Why didn't you respond to my post?

As an American taxpayer, there are things my voice and my vote can change and things they can't. I have zero ability to affect change upon China. I have a much larger ability to affect change here at home. Which choice is a waste of my time, and which one is productive?

Cycloptichorn

I believe the dilemma is what is also known as Moynihan's Law:

[i]The amount of violations of human rights in a country is always an inverse function of the amount of complaints about human rights violations heard from there. The greater the number of complaints being aired, the better protected are human rights in that country.[/i]

It's really just kinda stating the obvious. There will be less complaints about the torture of 10,000 people in a totalitarian regime than about the torture of one single person in democracy that cherishes freedom of speech.

So, is the number of complaints directly proportional to the number of violations? No. Does that mean that because there are more complaints about injustice in a democratic country than about injustice in a tyranny, that those who do the reporting are biased towards the tyranny? No. Does it mean that because violations happen elsewhere, too, that we should stop exerting our influence to stop the violations in our vicinity? Obviously not.


Therefore, I really wonder what were trying to achieve with this thread, Brandon... Did you want to make a point in stating the obvious? Because that's the only, semi-legitimate reason I could come up with as a justification for this thread (and the other one, where you used a similarly disingenuous title).

First of all, I don't need a justification for the thread, and secondly I've already stated my motive, which you've covered well in your post.

Brandon9000 wrote:

First of all, I don't need a justification for the thread, and secondly I've already stated my motive, which you've covered well in your post.

No, you certainly don't need a justification. I also think that it's an interesting topic to discuss.

I was just wondering about the reason for this kind of "false flag attack," particularly as you've done it before. I mean, you could as have titled the thread "Moynihan's Law" or something. As it is, it's got the air of justification for what we are doing about it.

But I guess that kind of provocation was really your point, and you've got a discussion going. So it's probably a good thing. (Even though I have to say that I'm usually drawn to a thread at least as much by the name of the author or the people posting there as by the mere title.)


It's also a good opportunity to point out that people who are discussing American politics on an American internet forum with lots of Americans posting about mainly American politics are not inherently biased against America. That, too, should be kind of obvious, but people are still complaining about it, every now and then.

Not that that's what you stated as a purpose for starting this thread, so it's not really directed at you.


However, what you've said was that you don't like to see most of the condemnation directed at you (as in "the United States"). I don't think that can be helped. America is one of the largest democratic countries. As a direct function of that, a whole lot of criticism will be lobbed at the US whenever America does something wrong.

But still, that doesn't change some basic facts regarding just the criticism of America (without viewing it in relation to the criticism directed at other countries):

- virtually all of the criticism directed at the United States is a result of some wrongdoing by the US
- the more blunders occur, the more criticism you'll get to hear

I've never said the comparison justifies anything, and I don't think that it does. However, what I am saying is not complicated, and I don't see why you persistently misrepresent it. What I have said is that there ought to be some perspective. I don't like to see statements by the left and by people in other countries that seem to imply that the US is among the worst violaters. I don't like to see most of the condemnation directed at us. Human rights abuses in the US shouldn't be accepted, acquiesced to, or allowed, but they are truly infinitessimal compared to those in many, many other countries such as China and Russia.