Married 1 yr & we're already strangers

ehBeth wrote:

I don't believe that it's fair to expect the nature of the relationship to change in any significant way because of the marriage. You're both still the same people you were before the marriage.

The people aren't changing but there are so many things that can change the relationship (if there weren't, people would never get divorced, would they?). I assume one of those immediate things would be the American expectation that marriage is like entering the gates of their fairy dream land...and then when things don't change into the form of their imagination, they may get frustrated.

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And the romantic myth that married couples should share everything and fill each other's every need. <cough>

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Eva wrote:

My husband is like that. We've been together for more than 25 years, and yet I rarely know what he is thinking or feeling. He keeps things to himself. It bothered me in the early years, until I grew up and learned to accept him for who he is. I know he loves me deeply by the things he does. As you said, words can be cheap. But actions...actions very rarely lie.

This I find so interesting, Eva.

I can see that working, for some people, but not for everybody.

Myself, I would be miserable in a situation like that. Not because I expect my partner (never been married) to fill my every need and share everything.
I don't.
I do,however, highly value an emotional openness in a partner. I wouldn't be happy or compatible with a man like your husband.
That is probably because I am more like your hubby in that respect. Smile

Perhaps Jazzie does have unrealistic expectations. But there might be a kernel in there that is simply part of who she is and what she needs/values in a partner.

Perhaps there is a basic incompatibility, that has taken some time to surface to both their awarenesses.

I do think that your hubby, Jazzie, is so hurt that he has built a wall that will probably take a good amount of time to come down.
The fact that you are struggling with anxiety, depression, your own essential happiness and security - his response to that is to further withdraw into himself.
He is not one to sweep in - which is maybe what you were hoping he would do?

Going to see a proper c or therapist on your own sounds like solid advice to me.

I don't see how you can begin to get this marriage on the right track and forge the bond that you need here without first knowing 100% what it is you do need and whether it is realistic.

In the meantime, can you resist the urge to act on fear and insecurity and live with the ambiguity of not knowing? You don't know, that's ok, it gives you a chance to take a solid look at this man you have married. Maybe to accept and see some parts of him you never did before, the real. There is probably some love here on both sides. Rarely does someone react so strongly as you both have without some strong feelings involved, some love and care.

He is a withdrawer. People tend to maintain a certain way of dealing with things, especially shows up in periods of stress. See if you can work with that, as Eva has with her hubby, see if you can be happy?
I like Eva's stance in accepting people where and how they are. Sounds like a good way to live, to me.

just some of my thoughts

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One of the most typical adjustments of early marriage is discovering the person you married is not who you thought. It happens all the time.

Sometimes it's because you've only seen them through the rose-colored glasses of infatuation. Sometimes it's because people often act differently after marriage. Sometimes it's simply because people evolve. There are so many possible reasons. The point is, you can't expect someone to stay exactly as they were when you fell in love with them. Change is normal. Some changes you'll like, some changes you won't. But you have to accept the fact that your husband or wife has the right to grow and change. Otherwise you'll both be miserable. Learn to be flexible.

The last woman I knew who bragged that her husband was always completely open and honest with her at all times was more than a little, um...surprised when he announced he was gay. They'd been married for 18 years. She really thought she knew everything about him, and that he always told her everything. Just goes to show you...

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Noddy24 wrote:

Is there any chance for marital counseling? Unless each of you does some changing, I don't see much hope.[/quote

Firstly, thank you everyone for your replies & suggestions. I've been offline the last few days trying to sort a few things out.

Noddy24 - thanx for this.
I've asked him 4 times to consider counselling. He agreed once so I made the appt. Then when the day arrived, he cancelled.
I've asked 3 times since then and he still says no. Apparently, I just have to "take responsibility for my actions" and everything will be ok.

Right.

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Juanita1927 wrote:

Perhaps if you try and have a talk with him and start with telling him how his behaviour is making you feel.

Or maybe try and write things down in a letter for him to read?
You mentioned before that he is close with his family, perhaps if you speak to them and see if they can get through to him?

If this doesnt improve things perhaps you both need some time apart to sort out your issues.

Perhaps he feels betrayed about what he read in your notes previously?
Maybe hes scared?

Hey Juanita - thanks also for your thoughts.
Ive told him in any number of ways how his distant behaiour makes me feel. Problem is that often I cry - which he doesn't respond well to. Apparently he's also claustraphobic and hates being hugged at night if we're sleeping - so you know. There's 2 more reasons right there why he finds physical intimacy stifling.
I can't talk to his family b/c it's his family. Their loyalities will be to him - not to me and I do not trust that whatever I say won't get back to him to be honest.
Time apart? I'm worried to spend too much time away from him in case my nightmare of him having a daliance with someone else comes true. Of course, I have no proof but one minute he's very loving and affectionate - and the next, he's a thousand miles away in a distant far land inside his head.
I'm sure he feels/felt betrayed by what he read in my notes. But at the time, when I wrote them last year, I was also feeling betrayed by him hiding things, not communicating, not being the person I thought I married, etc.
Yes, I know. Immature of me but I'm slowly learning that marriage is hard work.
I really appreciate what you said Smile

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stuh505 wrote:

jazzie --
Quote:
I try to understand who he is, but if I start getting close - that is, beyond the superficial stuff - he moves. He directs the conversation elsewhere. If I stay with the original conversation he just clams up. He won't speak. I cannot get initmate with him. And I want to.

Most of all, I don't feel as tho he wants to be with me. He says he does but words are cheap. If he did want to be with me, and if he wanted to be open, honest etc with me, then he wouldn't hide things from me. Right?

Basically, he doesn't care about you anymore. He's completely written you off, his mind is closed, he doesn't see you in a romantic way anymore. Whether or not you stay together or get divorced, your relationship is already over.

Hey Stu. Strong words. I burst into tears when I read this b/c I thought "crap. maybe this guy is right?" One thing I didn't say was that I am not the only person he treats like this.
He is evasive to almost everyone in his family. His family is comprised mostly of women. He also has issues with his mother which I can't go into in such a public place.
Ergo, the guy has issues with women, period. With trust, with intimacy, with giving straight answers, with being "exposed". It's taken me over a year of watching him interract with his family of women to work this out and I am trying to break past years and years of habitual ways of relating.
Sometimes, I succeed - and it's wonderful. But most of the time, he ducks & weaves & avoids the issue. He is an introverted shy person at heart who likes to play the big tough silent type who can leap buildings in a single bound and rescue damsels. But chivalry died 500 years ago and I can kill my own damned dragons.
He likes other people to look up to him, to almost be a role model. He wants me to admire him I think. But I just want to talk to him. To be an equal and to communicate like grown ups.
Not like children who arent' afraid to talk about the big stuff.

I hope he hasn't given up on me. I certainly haven't given up on him.

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Eva wrote:

Princessp has a point. As you said, words can be cheap. But actions...actions very rarely lie.
So...what do his actions tell you, jazzie? (Apart from his words, or lack of them.)

Hi Eva - I agree, yes, Princessp has a point for sure.
Actions? He is physically affectionate, buys flowers if I'm sick, cooks dinner more often than I do, does his own laundry etc and is keen to let me know that I am not his slave (which I appreciate!). Sometimes he is romantic but rarely.
Sometimes, out of nowhere, he'll just look at me and tell me he loves me, then go on doing what he was doing.
Other times, he'll go for days without saying a word.
I don't crave attention or affection. What I want is consistency. I want him to be consistently present - but maybe he is just not built like that? I dont know.

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Eva wrote:

What concerns me more is jazzie's statement that she "...snooped through his stuff...I found nasty surprises...he lied to me." First of all, she shouldn't have snooped. That's no way to build trust. She effectively gave him permission to do the same, and look where that led. More importantly: Are the lies about major things that directly affect this marriage? Or are they about minor matters in his past? If you want a relationship to last, jazzie, don't make a major issue out of minor stuff.

Marriage counseling certainly seems warranted. If jazzie's husband won't go with her, I encourage her to seek counseling alone. It may give her insights about the relationship and a better perspective on how to go forward from here.

Hey Eva - the things I found were to do with porn. The fact that he'd told me he'd thrown it away but had only hidden it somewhere else. For me, it was not so much the porn - it was the lies that hurt. I don't like secrets, I like people to lay their cards on the table. If they do this, and they are doing something I disagree with ... fine. I'll say so. But I won't stop them from doing it.

But. If they deny they are doing something, then tey do it and HIDE it and I find it, then I'm sorry. All hell breaks loose in my head. That is lying by ommission.

I've been having counselling regularly since May last year. My counsellor and I have hit the wall as there is nothing else left for me to tell her. She has said the next step is marriage counsellling.

Hubbie says no.
I say yes.
Stalemate.

argh.

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mushypancakes wrote:

I do,however, highly value an emotional openness in a partner.
Perhaps Jazzie does have unrealistic expectations. But there might be a kernel in there that is simply part of who she is and what she needs/values in a partner.
I do think that your hubby, Jazzie, is so hurt that he has built a wall that will probably take a good amount of time to come down.
The fact that you are struggling with anxiety, depression, your own essential happiness and security - his response to that is to further withdraw into himself.
He is not one to sweep in - which is maybe what you were hoping he would do?

In the meantime, can you resist the urge to act on fear and insecurity and live with the ambiguity of not knowing? You don't know, that's ok, it gives you a chance to take a solid look at this man you have married. Maybe to accept and see some parts of him you never did before, the real. There is probably some love here on both sides. Rarely does someone react so strongly as you both have without some strong feelings involved, some love and care.

He is a withdrawer. People tend to maintain a certain way of dealing with things, especially shows up in periods of stress. See if you can work with that, as Eva has with her hubby, see if you can be happy?

Hey mushy - hmmm. Most interesting post. Thank you so very much, A few answers :

I, like you, need an emotionally available partner. My husband can be - but only on his terms. Granted, he's changed a lot since we have been together, but then so have I. We have both comporomised. But I demand honesty. Truth. Not everyone is like that. I don't nag him for answers but as he only ever gives me one word answers, the onus is then left on me to keep asking freakin questions until I start getting half a complete answer. Usually I give up. It's too frustrating. But that's what he wants. If I give up, he wn't have to relinquish the rest of his information. This trick he has learned from years of living with a manipulative parent.

Yes he is hurt, I know it. I said some terrible things in those notes but they were from the heart. They were not supposed to be pretty, flattering bits of prose. The notes were only for my therpaist. Not for my husband. They were very critical of him, of marriage, questioning whether I'd made a mistake. They were awful notes. But my therapist told me to vent. Spew textually on to the page. So I did. Never in my wildest thoughts did I ever think my husband would find them. But he did and left me 2 days later. I was distraught. I vomitted everywhere from stress. It was ghastly. But at least he knew how desperately unhappy I was. Unfortunately, he also read a bunch of stuff that he took out of context which he continues to this day to bring up in conversation. He is paranoid that I'm spying on him. Please.

As for ignoring the urge to snoop? Oh yes. I've been doing that for almost a year now. Meds help calm me down. My prob is that I'm a journalist. I'm all about information. Answers. Even if they're wrong, I crave answers to unfinished questions. I don't badger people for answers but if I don't receive a direct answer to a direct question, it is extremely infuriating. I was raised in a straight talking, no nonsense, family and we're all very upfront with each other. Same with all my friends. If they are not direct with me, they don't stay in my circle. There's just no point in dillydallying around an issue. I'm not a ballbusting aggressive bitch, but if I ask a straight question, I want a straight answer.

If I am curious about something, I used to search for answers. If my gut told me something was not right, I'd search. Now, being married, it takes every fibre of my body not to do this. This is how I invaded his space in the first place. Something didn't feel right. Guess what - it wasn't. And this was evidenced over & over again.

Now, thanks to some tranqs the doctor has given me, I'm able to push aside a great deal of the anxiety associated with the need for answers. I don't float around the house like a balloon, but I glide from room to room like an all seeing all knowing Stepford Wife. While this, on one hand feels lovely to not stress out and freak out over not knowing everything or having all the answers, it makes me feel like only half a person. It makes me feel like I am cheating myself out of being the real person I am.

However, the big benefit of the meds is that my husband and I have been getting along alot better in the last few wks. I am trying hard to ignore his silence. I have plenty of other things to do than fret over him not talking. But then all that does is make me feel like I'm in one room and he's in another and there's a gulf in between.

I connect thru speech. I dont know how he connects. If I asked him, he'd probably say "through trees and nature and animals" etc. Sigh.

Apologies if this is TMI - thank you for reading my ramble. It's late and I must go to bed before I spill more guts than is allowed LOL

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Jazzie--

Quote:

I've asked him 4 times to consider counselling. He agreed once so I made the appt. Then when the day arrived, he cancelled.
I've asked 3 times since then and he still says no. Apparently, I just have to "take responsibility for my actions" and everything will be ok.

Does this mean because you snooped you will never be trusted again?

I also hear, "You change--but I'm not going to."

Either you live with him as he is or you live without him.

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Noddy24 wrote:

Jazzie--

Quote:
I've asked him 4 times to consider counselling. He agreed once so I made the appt. Then when the day arrived, he cancelled.
I've asked 3 times since then and he still says no. Apparently, I just have to "take responsibility for my actions" and everything will be ok.

Does this mean because you snooped you will never be trusted again?
I also hear, "You change--but I'm not going to."
Either you live with him as he is or you live without him.

Hi Noddy,

Quite right - according to my husb, my snooping has been the root of most of our problems, which is, at best, a gross exageration on his part. His snooping has been just as damaging.

The other cause of conflict is that he thinks he's perfect. He really does. He believes himself to be "a man of honor" and yet acts in ways that are contrary to that. I've pointed this out to him. It didn't go down well. He's Walter Mitty living in a fantasy world of his own making in that he percieves himself to be incapable of doing any wrong, that he is the 'victim' when I lose my cool and a fight starts. He runs to his mama's house when I lose my temper b/c he can't deal with conflict b/c of his pre-existing issues.

So. Live with him as he is or live without him.

Well. I would live with him as he is - if only he would let me see who he is. This, in my opinion, is at the heart of the matter. He keeps me at arms length in the same way he keeps all women in his life at arms length.

It makes me very sad. I know I can't change him (I can only change my reactions) but if I could only get him to one counselling visit - just one - I'd feel like I was making some headway.

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Jazzie--

Quote:

Well. I would live with him as he is - if only he would let me see who he is. This, in my opinion, is at the heart of the matter. He keeps me at arms length in the same way he keeps all women in his life at arms length.

It makes me very sad. I know I can't change him (I can only change my reactions) but if I could only get him to one counselling visit - just one - I'd feel like I was making some headway.

You would live with him as he is - if he would only change.

Now think. You believe that if he sees a marital counsellor just once he's going to decide that he must forgive you and become more open and trusting?

The reality you want isn't the reality you have. What are you going to do about this crazy-making situation?

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Oh Noddy. I don't know what to do about it. I've been really sad over the last few days so haven't posted anything as I haven't had anything constructive to say.
I really want this marriage to work.
But does it mean I have to walk around with my eyes closed, living in a world where everyone pretends to be happy? I just do not know.
I'm just of my husband thinking everything is my fault - b/c I was the one who sought counselling on my own. I was the one who began meds for depression & anxiety. and I was the one who spoke up when things were not working out.
Indeed, I was the one who shouted and stomped my feet when he was hiding stuff and being secretive. He claimed it was all coincidence, that he was hiding nothing at all. That it was in my head.
Therefore, he thinks that no matter what he does, he's in trouble from me. And I feel like no matter what I do, he thinks I'm checking up on him or doubting him.
I would like for us both to restore the trust in our relationship but I don't know where to begin.
I thought that it could begin with M/counselling - but as we know, I can't make him do something he doesn't want to do.
Can I live with him as he is?
Well.
I'm trying to.
I'm keeping the status quo, taking my meds like a good stepford wife and we are being nice to each other.
Sigh.

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Jazzie--

Your therapist has suggested--strongly suggested--couples counseling. Your huband doesn't want to go because he doesn't want to change.

In his view you have caused all the faults and stresses in your marriage.

Undoubtedly the marriage will work if you accept the role of Bad Wife and take all the blame for friction.

Do you want a marriage like this?

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Hi Noddy

Thanx for your response. No, I don't want a marriage where I feel as tho I"m the one who's at fault all the time, but I feel stuck in terms of what to do about it. Because my husband read my therapy notes, he has me pegged as some kind of psychotic insane vengeful hateful woman. He thinks I'm sabotaging him all the time, spying on him, acting against his best wishes at every turn. He thinks these things b/c my notes were a wild explosion of words, spewed out in frustration and anger where I wrote down some horrible things about him. Irrational textual rants in which I vented my spleen.

But ... he has taken those words very much to heart and and thinks that I fully meant everything I wrote. He cannot see that the words were a knee jerk reaction to my situation. And him. He was upset that I "didn't write anything nice about him." Well. I never intended for him to read the notes - they were for my therapist. The purpose was not to write "nice things".

I feel as tho he has put me in a position where I'm having to prove that I really am the good person he married. If I leave, it will be proof to him that I really am that horrid person who wrote all those dreadful things.

At the moment, we are both being kind and nice to each. Taking each day very slowly as it unfolds, but I know that he reads way too much into everything I say and/or do - because of what he read.

I burned those notes in the end. And I burned the photocopy he made.

If I could start this marriage all over again from scratch, I would.

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Jazzie--

If the two of you are able to work things out without counseling, wonderful.

Quote:

I feel as tho he has put me in a position where I'm having to prove that I really am the good person he married. If I leave, it will be proof to him that I really am that horrid person who wrote all those dreadful things.

Question: If you leave, what do you care what he thinks?

Another question: Why is he unable to accept your rantings as Therapy Assignment?

A final question: He has put you in a position you feel you don't deserve--and you resent this. Are you planning to live with this onus for the rest of your married life?

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Jazzie - in my observations, most men solve their own puzzles of wives and gfs by making one very big conclusion - "they are moody" and as a solution they decide to "say less, stay out of the way, and there will be less trouble". The fact that we may react strongly to some unimportant, to them, issue, scares them to hell. So many clam up. Now, that's just simple living, simple everyday interactions. In your case, what he read in your notes, were those our reactions in the power of thousands. He may have been whacked on the head by those notes to the extent that he himself can't yet grasp. It seems to me he is searching for an escape from that effect, even if logically he can understand that those were therapeutical notes. He may be grieving a loss, you know what I mean? A loss of a friendship as he saw it, a loss of his own view as a knight in shining armour, a loss of something that he himself can't yet put his finger on.

So while those notes were unfortunate, but they did happen, and since you are commited to him - how about let him grieve at his own time and pace? It is hard for you to not know answers, but maybe you are digging for answers where they do not exist yet?? How about giving him all the time and space he needs, and instead concentrating on you, on your health, on your work, hobbies - whatever may take your mind away from the situation.

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Mars and Venus, baby....

Men and women are truly from different planets and speak different languages. I have 2 ex husbands and am currently engaged. It took that long to figure out how to communicate with these beasts. I am not a total believer in all the principals of Dr. Gray and his whole mars venus thing, but he has quite a few very good points. You owe it to yourself to give it a read. Even if HE does not want to read it, there are things you can do to help yourself understand him. Believe it or not, he may just come around. The two of you need to learn eachother's "love language". Let me tell you, my current relationship has been a real challenge. Knowing that we speak different "love languages" was the first step in seeing how he was communicating to me that he loves me.

The secrecy thing...well...I think it is natural to have secrets. Especially after there has been a world of hurt. Rebuilding trust is not an easy task, but can be done if the will is there. If you want the relationship to be a trustworthy one, trust him first. Take the first step and let him know that you have faith him him and trust him. In my experience, people who do not feel trusted tend to do "not so nice things". People who feel trusted tend to not want to betray the trust.

Another book that may help you is "The Secret".

Relationships are a full-time job, but they should not be a chore. Most of the time, changing your attitude is the key. Positive attitudes create positive results!

Everything happens for a reason. We just need to look at all the possibilities and focus on a positive reason as opposed to a negative one.

Good luck!

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Just to add a bit to Amyrich's post...

In regards to knowing your partner there are a lot of things that can help you in the process of figuring our who your partner is. A number of personality tests come to mind with Myers Briggs being the first and foremost in my mind.

For example, is he Introverted or Extroverted...? Does he get energy from being around people or from being alone? He is more than likly a mix and you have to see on which side he falls on.

By knowing the differences between you and him, you may be able to better understand his actions and even his reactions... and therefore not take offense to things that are not meant to be offensive. That's just 1 example of how knowing more about your partner can help in a relationship.

With regards to counseling, it is very necissary. It does take two to tango, but you might be able to get him to sit down and take some personality tests. Their relativly harmless, but they do require honesty.

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Married 1 yr & we're already strangers

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