2
   

DEAD BROTHERS . . .

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 05:43 pm
(And the onsuing war in Iraq is stretching credibility to the breaking point).
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 05:53 pm
146,000 US troops in Iraq
33,000 US support troops in Kuwait
10,000 US troops in Afghanistan
37,000 US troops in South Korean
Liberia next?
Iran next?
Syria next?
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 07:46 pm
Olen referenced "our goal to free Iraq". Can you understand why I and many others are skeptical that our goal was / is "to free Iraq". Iraq has been oppressed by Hussein's regime for decades. We (the US) knew all about his tyrranical atrocities, and we did nothing. In fact, when it suited our purposes, we worked WITH him; we even armed him, as we did Osama bin laden.

During the cold war, the US and the Soviet Union kept each other carefully in check. Diplomacy was essential. We wouldn't have dared to invade a sovereign nation pre-emptively. We wouldn't have dared to in-your-face it to our much needed allies. Now, however, there is no longer any "check" in place, and most nations are understandably not comfortable with this.

North Korea presents a real and significant threat, a nuclear threat. Yet, we would not dare invade this country pre-emptively. Basically, I feel we invaded Iraq because we knew we could, and (perhaps) because we will now have better access to their oil, legitimately or otherwise.

We have issues with many other nations, human rights issues, military issues, etc. Pre-emptive invasion ought not be the option of choice.
0 Replies
 
williamhenry3
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2003 08:40 pm
At some point, I will expand on my last post to this thread. For now, though, I did not mean disbanding the army, I meant not having one at all.

Meanwhile, I am asking all my friends in California to choose Lightwizard for Governor!
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 06:41 am
williamhenry3

Quote:
At some point, I will expand on my last post to this thread. For now, though, I did not mean disbanding the army, I meant not having one at all.


I am off to see the wizzard the wonderful wizzard of OZ Tra la, tra la. Embarrassed Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 06:59 am
Having just tuned in here, my attention is still drawn to the issue of the two brothers. The way they were dealt with shows that we're developing a habit (possibly born of short attention span, among other things) of "getting it over with." As though swift "conclusive" action were a long-term solution.

We don't just reserve this attitude for international problems; we even been doing it here now, be it Ruby Ridge or Waco or the "Move" situation in Philadelphia, or the 2000 election. The pre-emptive strike issue, whether on large or small-scale also accentuates the gap between Right and Left: the Right having the shortest attention span and the greatest eagerness to Just Do It, whether it is moral and/or practical or not. The bush group use it as a management style, whether they're "winning an election," skewing information to suit their agenda, or setting up a deck of cards and then loudly murdering the characters depicted on those cards.

The question for us peons is, do we want it to be the prevailing "American style"?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 09:45 am
Has anyone else seen the video (being shown over and over, currently on MSNBC) of the mortuary-processed corpses?

And does anyone else get the feeling that the administration is trying too hard to sell their case--again?
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 09:53 am
PDiddie
No they are just trying to convince the skeptical Iraqi's that the boogie men are dead. All kinds of conspiracy theories abound.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 10:06 am
Some good points, angie, yet you wouldn't have us go back to Cold War for a solution, would you?

Glad to see you posting here, by the way. I only recall two people thanking me for sending them invitations to the site.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 10:23 am
au1929 wrote:
PDiddie
No they are just trying to convince the skeptical Iraqi's that the boogie men are dead. All kinds of conspiracy theories abound.


Could be, au -- but as regards the photos, I do KNOW this:

If all this **** were coming AT US -- rather than FROM US -- damn near everyone in America would be going nuts.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 10:45 am
Au1929 wrote:
IMO only a sick mind would think of doing that.
I would not say so. Of course, it is of bad taste, but we must not forget that these pictures were intended mainly for Iraqis. The rank-and-file Arabs tend to believe in myths attributing immortality to powerful rulers and their families, and this was done to destroy the myths of Uday and Qusay being alive before such a myth was born.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 10:55 am
steissd wrote:
Au1929 wrote:
IMO only a sick mind would think of doing that.
I would not say so. Of course, it is of bad taste, but we must not forget that these pictures were intended mainly for Iraqis. The rank-and-file Arabs tend to believe in myths attributing immortality to powerful rulers and their families, and this was done to destroy the myths of Uday and Qusay being alive before such a myth was born.



Steissd

Gimme a break, will ya.

Parading these pictures all over the world is more than just "in bad taste" -- it is barbaric, cruel, uncultured, and asinine. And in BAD TASTE!

Everyone knew these pictues were going to be paraded on television all across the world -- so who they were "intended for" is damn near irrelevant.

As for the myths -- well, if there are people who think that powerful rulers are immortal -- they are going to think that same thing no matter how many pictures get shown.

If any of this were being done TO US -- we would be in a frenzy. The indignation index would be at 45,000.

I read in the newspaper last night that even people in the Pentagon think this was the wrong thing to do.

IT WAS!
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 11:04 am
I was also surprised that such pictures were published not on the disgusting site like www.rotten.com, but I really attribute this to lack of good taste and manners in some of the officials. I do not condemn the fact of killing the Saddam's offspring, though, since they were not just butchered, the soldiers came to arrest them and they resisted arrest. Criminals resisting arrest sometimes get shot in a skirmish.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 11:25 am
Some reactions from European newspapers (From 'Deutsche Welle' dw-world):
Quote:

The decision to publish photos of the corpses of Saddam Hussein's two sons has prompted reactions in several European papers, while other editorialists commented on Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas' visit to Washington.

To publish or not to publish? That was the dilemma facing Europe's newspaper editors on Friday once the shocking images of the corpses of Uday and Qusay Hussein had been released.

Britain's The Independent resolved the problem by printing the photos across half of its front page. But it obscured the images beneath a wash the color of dried blood, and a long comment from its Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk. Inside, the paper's editorial justified the pictures, saying that while the public display of corpses for propaganda purposes is of course obnoxious, and the parading of enemy dead by the victors uncivilized, the case of Saddam Hussein's sons is a special one. The paper wrote that it matters greatly to many Iraqis whether or not Uday and Qusay are dead, as the Americans claim. It must be hard for them to believe that the dictatorship of the past quarter-century is really broken, the paper summarized.

Italy's La Repubblica found it difficult to believe that America of all places should decide to turn the disfigured corpses into a spectacle. The paper commented in disgust that doing so was like a hunter displaying his kill by strapping it to the roof of his car, and wondered how this could come from a country which prides itself on upholding what it terms "Western values." The paper added that the publication of the photographs will do nothing to stop attacks on American targets.

With Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas in Washington for talks with U.S. President George W. Bush, France's La Croix welcomed the current break in the cycle of violence, and wrote that it's up to Bush to give fresh impetus to the peace process in the Middle East.

But the Russian daily Wremja M.N. was of the opinion that without the clear support of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, Abbas lacks the necessary authority. On the one hand he's given a full mandate to discuss the peace plan with the United States, but on the other he's criticized for meeting too often with the Israeli leader, the paper wrote. Both Israel and Abbas' own people expect too much of him, it stated.

Austria's Der Standard commented on the ambitions of the country's native son, Hollywood action-man Arnold Schwarzenegger, to run for governor of California. This is more than just the whim of a brainless bodybuilder, it wrote. Arnie has already made a name for himself as an honorary advisor to George Bush senior. He's a true professional who succeeds in almost everything he does, the Austrian paper enthused. Although he still can't speak English without an accent, his mastery of political phraseology is almost perfect.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 11:32 am
I think releasing the images was the right thing to do. Just as I think Al Jazeera was right to release the images they did.

Sure it was in bad taste, inhumane etc etc

But then again killing someone is bad taste. War is bad taste.. I'm not saying the circumstances justify anything but releasing these photos is a pyscological operation that could save lives.

What I think is wrong is when the Pentagon complains about Al Jazeera airing images of our dead. That was a brainfart and the complainst rang hollow. The day I saw the Al Jazeera reporters taken to task was also the same day tht I looked at photos of Iraqi dead in US newspapers.

BTW, did anyone here avoid the pics?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 11:56 am
Craven -- I don't like the way that works out. You could start, for example, with offing your wife. And then say that, after all, it makes sense to dispose of the body. But when one says "it makes sense" in that context one is, like it or not, aiding and abetting or at least condoning.

What we've got here is a series of events each of which is a "natural outcome" of the preceding one, all of which proceed from a big lie. Rather than let our indignation increase, we look for a way out. Nope. Doesn't work for me.

(I don't have TV so I haven't seen the pictures.)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 12:18 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
I'm not saying the circumstances justify anything but releasing these photos is a pyscological operation that could save lives.


How?

What is your reasoning here?

If you are saying that "establishing that the brothers are dead will save lives" -- I really have to ask if you honestly do not think there were other, less uncivilized ways, of establishing that they were dead?

What about the identification process? Surely there are people now in custody who could be called upon to make an identification. Frankly, the pictures could be of anyone -- they did not resemble the two brothers in the least. In fact, the pictures without other references were almost useless.

But beyond that, why do you suppose that establishing that the two brothers are dead will save lives?


Quote:
BTW, did anyone here avoid the pics?


I did not avoid them, but the only time I viewed them was when I saw them in a newspaper that lay open on the desk of a co-worker.

I found them to be disgusting and distateful -- and uncivilized.

What was the point of that question?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 12:19 pm
I wouldn't want to be governor of California but...

I'll be Bach.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 12:20 pm
You hardly could here in Europe, Craven: it has on the frontpage of any paper and in nearly all main tv-news. (Which has been, btw, one day earlier as most Arabs could see it. [Due to Friday, there won't be a lot of Arabian papers published, I suppose.])
0 Replies
 
bobsmyth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2003 12:22 pm
0 Replies
 
 

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