(And the onsuing war in Iraq is stretching credibility to the breaking point).
146,000 US troops in Iraq
33,000 US support troops in Kuwait
10,000 US troops in Afghanistan
37,000 US troops in South Korean
Liberia next?
Iran next?
Syria next?
Olen referenced "our goal to free Iraq". Can you understand why I and many others are skeptical that our goal was / is "to free Iraq". Iraq has been oppressed by Hussein's regime for decades. We (the US) knew all about his tyrranical atrocities, and we did nothing. In fact, when it suited our purposes, we worked WITH him; we even armed him, as we did Osama bin laden.
During the cold war, the US and the Soviet Union kept each other carefully in check. Diplomacy was essential. We wouldn't have dared to invade a sovereign nation pre-emptively. We wouldn't have dared to in-your-face it to our much needed allies. Now, however, there is no longer any "check" in place, and most nations are understandably not comfortable with this.
North Korea presents a real and significant threat, a nuclear threat. Yet, we would not dare invade this country pre-emptively. Basically, I feel we invaded Iraq because we knew we could, and (perhaps) because we will now have better access to their oil, legitimately or otherwise.
We have issues with many other nations, human rights issues, military issues, etc. Pre-emptive invasion ought not be the option of choice.
At some point, I will expand on my last post to this thread. For now, though, I did not mean disbanding the army, I meant not having one at all.
Meanwhile, I am asking all my friends in California to choose Lightwizard for Governor!
williamhenry3
Quote: At some point, I will expand on my last post to this thread. For now, though, I did not mean disbanding the army, I meant not having one at all.
I am off to see the wizzard the wonderful wizzard of OZ Tra la, tra la.
Having just tuned in here, my attention is still drawn to the issue of the two brothers. The way they were dealt with shows that we're developing a habit (possibly born of short attention span, among other things) of "getting it over with." As though swift "conclusive" action were a long-term solution.
We don't just reserve this attitude for international problems; we even been doing it here now, be it Ruby Ridge or Waco or the "Move" situation in Philadelphia, or the 2000 election. The pre-emptive strike issue, whether on large or small-scale also accentuates the gap between Right and Left: the Right having the shortest attention span and the greatest eagerness to Just Do It, whether it is moral and/or practical or not. The bush group use it as a management style, whether they're "winning an election," skewing information to suit their agenda, or setting up a deck of cards and then loudly murdering the characters depicted on those cards.
The question for us peons is, do we want it to be the prevailing "American style"?
Has anyone else seen the video (being shown over and over, currently on MSNBC) of the mortuary-processed corpses?
And does anyone else get the feeling that the administration is trying too hard to sell their case--again?
PDiddie
No they are just trying to convince the skeptical Iraqi's that the boogie men are dead. All kinds of conspiracy theories abound.
Some good points, angie, yet you wouldn't have us go back to Cold War for a solution, would you?
Glad to see you posting here, by the way. I only recall two people thanking me for sending them invitations to the site.
au1929 wrote:PDiddie
No they are just trying to convince the skeptical Iraqi's that the boogie men are dead. All kinds of conspiracy theories abound.
Could be, au -- but as regards the photos, I do KNOW this:
If all this **** were coming AT US -- rather than FROM US -- damn near everyone in America would be going nuts.
Au1929 wrote:IMO only a sick mind would think of doing that.
I would not say so. Of course, it is of bad taste, but we must not forget that these pictures were intended mainly for Iraqis. The rank-and-file Arabs tend to believe in myths attributing immortality to powerful rulers and their families, and this was done to destroy the myths of Uday and Qusay being alive before such a myth was born.
steissd wrote:Au1929 wrote:IMO only a sick mind would think of doing that.
I would not say so. Of course, it is of bad taste, but we must not forget that these pictures were intended mainly for Iraqis. The rank-and-file Arabs tend to believe in myths attributing immortality to powerful rulers and their families, and this was done to destroy the myths of Uday and Qusay being alive before such a myth was born.
Steissd
Gimme a break, will ya.
Parading these pictures all over the world is more than just "in bad taste" -- it is barbaric, cruel, uncultured, and asinine. And in BAD TASTE!
Everyone knew these pictues were going to be paraded on television all across the world -- so who they were "intended for" is damn near irrelevant.
As for the myths -- well, if there are people who think that powerful rulers are immortal -- they are going to think that same thing no matter how many pictures get shown.
If any of this were being done TO US -- we would be in a frenzy. The indignation index would be at 45,000.
I read in the newspaper last night that even people in the Pentagon think this was the wrong thing to do.
IT WAS!
I was also surprised that such pictures were published not on the disgusting site like
www.rotten.com, but I really attribute this to lack of good taste and manners in some of the officials. I do not condemn the fact of killing the Saddam's offspring, though, since they were not just butchered, the soldiers came to arrest them and they resisted arrest. Criminals resisting arrest sometimes get shot in a skirmish.
Some reactions from European newspapers (From 'Deutsche Welle' dw-world):
Quote:
The decision to publish photos of the corpses of Saddam Hussein's two sons has prompted reactions in several European papers, while other editorialists commented on Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas' visit to Washington.
To publish or not to publish? That was the dilemma facing Europe's newspaper editors on Friday once the shocking images of the corpses of Uday and Qusay Hussein had been released.
Britain's The Independent resolved the problem by printing the photos across half of its front page. But it obscured the images beneath a wash the color of dried blood, and a long comment from its Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk. Inside, the paper's editorial justified the pictures, saying that while the public display of corpses for propaganda purposes is of course obnoxious, and the parading of enemy dead by the victors uncivilized, the case of Saddam Hussein's sons is a special one. The paper wrote that it matters greatly to many Iraqis whether or not Uday and Qusay are dead, as the Americans claim. It must be hard for them to believe that the dictatorship of the past quarter-century is really broken, the paper summarized.
Italy's La Repubblica found it difficult to believe that America of all places should decide to turn the disfigured corpses into a spectacle. The paper commented in disgust that doing so was like a hunter displaying his kill by strapping it to the roof of his car, and wondered how this could come from a country which prides itself on upholding what it terms "Western values." The paper added that the publication of the photographs will do nothing to stop attacks on American targets.
With Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas in Washington for talks with U.S. President George W. Bush, France's La Croix welcomed the current break in the cycle of violence, and wrote that it's up to Bush to give fresh impetus to the peace process in the Middle East.
But the Russian daily Wremja M.N. was of the opinion that without the clear support of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, Abbas lacks the necessary authority. On the one hand he's given a full mandate to discuss the peace plan with the United States, but on the other he's criticized for meeting too often with the Israeli leader, the paper wrote. Both Israel and Abbas' own people expect too much of him, it stated.
Austria's Der Standard commented on the ambitions of the country's native son, Hollywood action-man Arnold Schwarzenegger, to run for governor of California. This is more than just the whim of a brainless bodybuilder, it wrote. Arnie has already made a name for himself as an honorary advisor to George Bush senior. He's a true professional who succeeds in almost everything he does, the Austrian paper enthused. Although he still can't speak English without an accent, his mastery of political phraseology is almost perfect.
I think releasing the images was the right thing to do. Just as I think Al Jazeera was right to release the images they did.
Sure it was in bad taste, inhumane etc etc
But then again killing someone is bad taste. War is bad taste.. I'm not saying the circumstances justify anything but releasing these photos is a pyscological operation that could save lives.
What I think is wrong is when the Pentagon complains about Al Jazeera airing images of our dead. That was a brainfart and the complainst rang hollow. The day I saw the Al Jazeera reporters taken to task was also the same day tht I looked at photos of Iraqi dead in US newspapers.
BTW, did anyone here avoid the pics?
Craven -- I don't like the way that works out. You could start, for example, with offing your wife. And then say that, after all, it makes sense to dispose of the body. But when one says "it makes sense" in that context one is, like it or not, aiding and abetting or at least condoning.
What we've got here is a series of events each of which is a "natural outcome" of the preceding one, all of which proceed from a big lie. Rather than let our indignation increase, we look for a way out. Nope. Doesn't work for me.
(I don't have TV so I haven't seen the pictures.)
Craven de Kere wrote:I'm not saying the circumstances justify anything but releasing these photos is a pyscological operation that could save lives.
How?
What is your reasoning here?
If you are saying that "establishing that the brothers are dead will save lives" -- I really have to ask if you honestly do not think there were other, less uncivilized ways, of establishing that they were dead?
What about the identification process? Surely there are people now in custody who could be called upon to make an identification. Frankly, the pictures could be of anyone -- they did not resemble the two brothers in the least. In fact, the pictures without other references were almost useless.
But beyond that, why do you suppose that establishing that the two brothers are dead will save lives?
Quote:BTW, did anyone here avoid the pics?
I did not avoid them, but the only time I viewed them was when I saw them in a newspaper that lay open on the desk of a co-worker.
I found them to be disgusting and distateful -- and uncivilized.
What was the point of that question?
I wouldn't want to be governor of California but...
I'll be Bach.
You hardly could here in Europe, Craven: it has on the frontpage of any paper and in nearly all main tv-news. (Which has been, btw, one day earlier as most Arabs could see it. [Due to Friday, there won't be a lot of Arabian papers published, I suppose.])
Apparently the latest release of photos were altered which leads to speculation That it may not have been the brothers. The story following shows some believ others do not.
Middle East - AP
U.S. Displays Hussein Brothers' Bodies
1 hour, 46 minutes ago
By MATT MOORE, Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military displayed the bodies of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s sons on Friday, the faces reconstructed to appear as lifelike as possible after still photographs failed to convince many Iraqis the brothers were really dead.
AP Photo
AP Photo
Slideshow: Iraq
Sons' Bodies Shown to Reporters
(AP Video)
Premium Video:
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Latest news:
· U.S. Shows Hussein Brothers' Bodies
AP - 12 minutes ago
· Dead Uday, Qusay pictures beamed to world, US defends decision
AFP - 31 minutes ago
· Deep doubt in Iraq over Uday-Qusay photos
AFP - 50 minutes ago
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(Viewer discretion advised) The body of Odai Hussein (AP)
The body of Qusai Hussein (AP)
Meanwhile, a U.S. general said American troops acting on an Iraqi tip captured five to 10 people believed to be Saddam's bodyguards in raid outside Tikrit, a sign forces were closing in on Saddam himself.
"We continue to tighten the noose," said Maj. Gen. Ray Odierno, commander of the Army's 4th Infantry Division, speaking Friday to reporters at the Pentagon (news - web sites) via video hookup from Tikrit, Saddam's hometown and a source of continuing support for his deposed regime.
The images of Odai and Qusai Hussein published Thursday had raised criticism by showing only the brothers' faces and upper chests ?- the faces obscured by heavy beards, blood and gashes ?- and giving no indication of height.
By contrast, the military showed journalists including an Associated Press reporter the autopsied bodies covered only by sheets and presented identifying evidence, including dental records and a rod from Odai's leg.
Odai's beard had been trimmed to the length he had worn it in life. Qusai's beard was shaved off and he had only a mustache, his trademark. The faces appeared waxy and heavily made up.
Morticians removed a large gash that had cut across the middle of Odai's face. Odai's abdomen had been riddled with bullets, and the torsos of both brothers bore large Y-shaped incisions.
Autopsy incisions were also visible on Odai's left leg, where doctors removed the 8-inch long bar inserted after a 1996 assassination attempt. A piece of leg bone taken out with the bar was wrapped in plastic and lying next to his body on the gurney.
Odai, 39, and Qusai, 37, were killed Tuesday in a gunbattle with U.S. troops, who raided a villa in the northern city of Mosul, directed there by an Iraqi tipster. Two other Iraqis in the house also were killed, believed to be a bodyguard and Qusai's teenage son Mustafa.
The U.S. military had offered a $15 million reward for information leading to the capture or death of the brothers ?- two of the most feared men in Iraq and Nos. 2 and 3 on the American list of most-wanted Iraqis.
Odai was believed to have died from a head injury caused by a blunt object. Qusai had two bullet wounds to his head, in and just behind his right ear, doctors and medical officials said. They said they did not think the wounds were self-inflicted. A final report on the brothers' deaths was expected within six weeks.
Saddam's sons responded to U.S. soldiers' demand to surrender with a hail of gunfire, so there was no way they could have been captured alive, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Thursday in Washington.
Some Iraqis say they would have preferred that the sons were captured and put on trial, but Rumsfeld said there was no reason to second-guess the actions of the 101st Airborne Division troops who carried out the quick-reaction mission in Mosul.
"Given the amount of gunfire that came from that building ... it is I think obvious that there was no chance of taking them alive," the defense secretary said.
Speaking from Tikrit, Odierno said the deaths of Odai and Qusai have prompted more tips from Iraqis such as the ones that led to the capture Thursday of Saddam's bodyguards. "We've shown them no one of the old regime is going to survive," the general said.
U.S. officials said the bodies would be stored in a refrigerated tent at Baghdad International Airport until a family member came forward to claim them.
The U.S. civil administration in Iraq was talking to the country's Governing Council about how to preserve the bodies according to Islamic custom, which calls for burial as soon as possible. Usually, Muslims are buried before nightfall the day they die.
However, the reconstruction ?- a common funeral practice in the West ?- could raise doubts and anger among Iraqis, since Muslims have no tradition of embalming bodies.
Before burial, the bodies of Muslims are washed and wrapped in white cotton cloth, but they are not otherwise treated. If a Muslim falls in battle, then he or she are declared a martyr and buried without their bodies washed.
The extensive plastic surgery also could fuel Iraqi suspicions that the Americans tampered with bodies to make them resemble the brothers.
U.S. officials said they treated the bodies with the same respect given any corpse, and that making the brothers look lifelike was standard military procedure.
But the reconstruction was significant because of the doubt about the still photographs. Surgeons showed reporters dental X-rays and said serial and model numbers on the rod from Odai's leg matched data they had about it.
The photographs released Thursday were widely viewed on television around the world, including in Iraq. Among the complaints was that the photographs did not show the sons' full bodies, giving no way to judge their height.
Most papers in the capital, Baghdad, did not publish Friday, a Muslim day of prayer and rest. The Al Ray Al-Am ran a story about the pictures, but did not show them, opting instead to show an older color photo of Odai wearing an Arab headdress, his faced crossed out with a red "X."
The photos seemed to have had little effect on Iraqi opinion.
"This is a U.S. ploy to try to break the spirit of the resistance," said Jassim al-Robai, a computer engineer, who said the photographs did not convince him the brothers were killed.
Two U.S. military photos showed a man identified as Qusai with bruises and blood spots around his eyes. That face was far more intact than the other, identified as Odai.
The face of what appeared to be Odai was severely bloodied. A gash ran from his left eye to the right corner of his mouth, and bruises and blood covered his forehead.
Both men were heavily bearded, which left some Iraqis speculating that they may have been trying to mask their identities. They had been on the run since the regime collapsed April 9.
