1
   

Democrats BEFORE The Invasion of Iraq

 
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:39 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
Oh poor little Billikums, I warned you about thinking before posting, but you come right back like a Punch and Judy puppet for more pummeling.


Do you have any idea how idiotic you look when you write this sh!t?

Really? Then you know nothing vis-a-vis Punch and Judy, and I'm casting my pearls to swine.

http://www.magicmartin.co.uk/punch.jpg

btw, I'm Punch, on the left, Bill. You're wearing the dress.


You are a legend only in your own mind (what's left of it). It's only that this site is dominated by like-minded lefties that your senile ass wasn't laughed off long ago. I can hardly wait for your next flash of brilliance about pants pooping, anal rape or whatever else you recall from the days of being picked on at the schoolyard.

So sorry bub, first, like minded lefties still laugh at my senile ass (generally for engaging you idiots on the Right), so consider how they laugh at yours. But seriously, I was a big, tall, and athletic jock who stopped other jocks from picking on girls and dwebs like you in the school yard. You know how liberals are.

kuvasz wrote:
Oh and about your time machine, can you tell the rest of the class how else you could proclaim
Quote:
that Bill Clinton, Nancy Pelosi etc's 1998 statements were really the product of Bush's war desires several years later..


Because being a "product" of something that happens later is impossible.


You're even thicker than I thought. Any damn fool could tell you that is in parody of your idiotic blaming of Bush for what was played on the video clip from 1998.

Are you really that stupid? Or do you think you're fooling some one by pretending that began as my error? Laughing

First, I did not "blame" Bush for what was played on the video. You just made that up.

and finally, an admission of error on your part. Well, its a start. Lets see, is 1998 actually the same as October of 2002? Nope, sorry Bill, you don't get to create your own reality, unless you are living in a NULL-A world, where anything can equal something else because you want it to.


Your desire to pretend anyone argued against your vote data is denied.

Nor should they.

No one did.

Ops, only you did by attempting to use Clinton's and Pelosi's remarks as indicative of, get this, the actual title of the thread..."Democrats BEFORE the invasion of Iraq."

However, just because your delusional mind got stuck on that, and that alone, doesn't make any intelligent person believe that video taped pronouncements cease to exist or be relevantÂ… especially when they are the catalyst for the thread you're responding to. Laughing (I sure hope you are retired Shocked)

So, your idea of delusional is rejecting a thesis which uses only arbitrary, non-inclusive, cherry-picking of data to support itself? This again leads one to consider the evidence, are Clinton's and Pelosi's remarks representative to the stance taken by the majority of congressional Democrats who voted on the ATUF? No, they are not. Which was my antithetical statement (based upon the numbers of the recorded ATUF votes) to the implicit thesis binding the thread title to the linked footage.

The funniest part is; you seem to think you're doing a superior job, while you make a total fool of yourself... as usual.

Bill, you don't have to tell me what you yourself have done in your last several posts. Unlike you, I actually know how to read, think, and do arithmetic.

and seem to know a bit more about Punch and Judy too.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:47 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
What are you two smoking? Cyclops; you quoted me saying attempts at blameshifting are idiotic; why blast that rancor my way? Of course decision makers and people who voted for the bill bear more responsibility for it; who said otherwise? I really am getting this **** from both sides. Laughing

And Dookie; what the hell are you talking about? I can't stop posting ad nauseum everything that a Dem said way back when... because I've yet to do so even once. Shocked

That being said; Reverend HellH0und did fortify the video's point that Bush was not alone in believing Iraq a threat. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone truly interested in picking good leaders in the future, should certainly want to know who said what when. Again; way too many of these people from both parties are trying to distance themselves, from their own words, and they all need to be re-categorized as liars when they lie.

You support those who endlessly put up this list. You might as well be doing the same damn thing.

Senator Durbin also "fortified" the point that the Senators on the Intelligence Committee who were privy to more intel than the average Congressman/woman were also privy to how this administration cherry picked facts and, in essence, made sh!t up in order to justify their invasion. This has NOTHING to do with collectively believing that Saddam was a threat. This has EVERYTHING to do with the decisions that were made to invade Iraq at a time when the intel was highly doubtful that Saddam had re-constituted his WMD programs. The conventional wisdom from the intelligence community, Bush's father, Scowcroft, and so many others, was that by invading Iraq, we would be destabilizing an entire and create more terrorism than ever before.

Women had FAR more rights under Saddam. Now, they're being stoned to death just for falling in love with someone who's religion is not their own. Is this what you want to fight for?

You worry about picking good leaders based solely on what they said?

What about when they blatantly lie?

Wasn't Bush against nation building?

Wasn't he against being an arrogant nation?

I'd look to those lies, and try to understand why this country (mostly conservatives) put this lying, sack of sh!t in the White House.

And what are YOU smoking? Clinton enforced the no-fly zone as well as continuing the sanctions. He even bombed Iraq again. And guess what? Turned out Saddam actually DID destroyed his WMDs. During CLINTON'S Presidency.

How can one lie when they do not know the entire truth? And yet, when one cherry picks intelligence, then how can they be telling the truth when the intel shows serious doubts which few in Congress are actually privy to? Lest we forget those famous 16 words uttered at Bush's SOTU, which scared America enough into believing that Saddam had a hand in 9/11.

You, as well many others, have a hard time grappling with timelines. To many who still advocate this worthless war, the present is always the present, even if it happened almost a decade ago.

In the end, it doesn't MATTER what Democrats believed a decade ago. It completely matters that the Idiot in Chief was the one who actually took us into war, stopping FAR short of making absolutely certain that Saddam was TRULY a threat, which the War Authorization specified.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:52 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
What are you two smoking? Cyclops; you quoted me saying attempts at blameshifting are idiotic; why blast that rancor my way? Of course decision makers and people who voted for the bill bear more responsibility for it; who said otherwise? I really am getting this **** from both sides. Laughing

And Dookie; what the hell are you talking about? I can't stop posting ad nauseum everything that a Dem said way back when... because I've yet to do so even once. Shocked

That being said; Reverend HellH0und did fortify the video's point that Bush was not alone in believing Iraq a threat. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone truly interested in picking good leaders in the future, should certainly want to know who said what when. Again; way too many of these people from both parties are trying to distance themselves, from their own words, and they all need to be re-categorized as liars when they lie.


You didn't read the last line of my post.

Quote:

You can understand that after hearing these intellectually unsound arguments over and over from Republicans, people tend to jump the gun a bit when they hear it from someone who claims not to be. It's the reverse of what you are experiencing in the immigration thread from the other side.


They are intellectually unsound arguments. The Dems carry some blame for the start of the Iraq war, but only about half of them voted for it and it was Republicans driving the whoooole time.

I don't care who is making the point which is incorrect, it's still incorrect. I can talk all day about what a threat a certain person is, but if you decide to take action against that person, I'm not responsible.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 02:02 pm
kuvasz wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
kuvasz wrote:
Oh poor little Billikums, I warned you about thinking before posting, but you come right back like a Punch and Judy puppet for more pummeling.


Do you have any idea how idiotic you look when you write this sh!t?

Really? Then you know nothing vis-a-vis Punch and Judy, and I'm casting my pearls to swine.

http://www.magicmartin.co.uk/punch.jpg

btw, I'm Punch, on the left, Bill. You're wearing the dress.


You are a legend only in your own mind (what's left of it). It's only that this site is dominated by like-minded lefties that your senile ass wasn't laughed off long ago. I can hardly wait for your next flash of brilliance about pants pooping, anal rape or whatever else you recall from the days of being picked on at the schoolyard.

So sorry bub, first, like minded lefties still laugh at my senile ass (generally for engaging you idiots on the Right), so consider how they laugh at yours. But seriously, I was a big, tall, and athletic jock who stopped other jocks from picking on girls and dwebs like you in the school yard. You know how liberals are.

kuvasz wrote:
Oh and about your time machine, can you tell the rest of the class how else you could proclaim
Quote:
that Bill Clinton, Nancy Pelosi etc's 1998 statements were really the product of Bush's war desires several years later..


Because being a "product" of something that happens later is impossible.


You're even thicker than I thought. Any damn fool could tell you that is in parody of your idiotic blaming of Bush for what was played on the video clip from 1998.

Are you really that stupid? Or do you think you're fooling some one by pretending that began as my error? Laughing

First, I did not "blame" Bush for what was played on the video. You just made that up.

and finally, an admission of error on your part. Well, its a start. Lets see, is 1998 actually the same as October of 2002? Nope, sorry Bill, you don't get to create your own reality, unless you are living in a NULL-A world, where anything can equal something else because you want it to.


Your desire to pretend anyone argued against your vote data is denied.

Nor should they.

No one did.

Ops, only you did by attempting to use Clinton's and Pelosi's remarks as indicative of, get this, the actual title of the thread..."Democrats BEFORE the invasion of Iraq."

However, just because your delusional mind got stuck on that, and that alone, doesn't make any intelligent person believe that video taped pronouncements cease to exist or be relevantÂ… especially when they are the catalyst for the thread you're responding to. Laughing (I sure hope you are retired Shocked)

So, your idea of delusional is rejecting a thesis which uses only arbitrary, non-inclusive, cherry-picking of data to support itself? This again leads one to consider the evidence, are Clinton's and Pelosi's remarks representative to the stance taken by the majority of congressional Democrats who voted on the ATUF? No, they are not. Which was my antithetical statement (based upon the numbers of the recorded ATUF votes) to the implicit thesis binding the thread title to the linked footage.

The funniest part is; you seem to think you're doing a superior job, while you make a total fool of yourself... as usual.

Bill, you don't have to tell me what you yourself have done in your last several posts. Unlike you, I actually know how to read, think, and do arithmetic.

and seem to know a bit more about Punch and Judy too.
If you don't have either the intelligence to recognize the parody of your own idiocy represented by my time traveling statement or the intellectual honesty to admit it, I see no point in continuing with you. The video was the catalyst for the thread... you attempt to squash it with your mind numbing nonsense and vote stats for the war, but that doesn't change the simple fact that the video itself was the catalyst... hence your bullshit about war bullshit years later was a ridiculously feeble pile of bullshit, that has absolutely no bearing on the statements I referenced, from the friggin video. Now I don't much care if you like my parody, or agree or disagree with it; but if you're too stupid to even see it ( after it's been pointed out repeatedly Shocked) there is no discussion being had here beyond an ad hominem exchange. Judging by your last display of indignity, with your "I know you are but what am I mentality"; I guess it's true: The pig really does like it.

And no, I'm not familiar with your dolls. Sorry. Not my thing. Good day.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 02:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


You didn't read the last line of my post.

Quote:

You can understand that after hearing these intellectually unsound arguments over and over from Republicans, people tend to jump the gun a bit when they hear it from someone who claims not to be. It's the reverse of what you are experiencing in the immigration thread from the other side.


They are intellectually unsound arguments. The Dems carry some blame for the start of the Iraq war, but only about half of them voted for it and it was Republicans driving the whoooole time.

I don't care who is making the point which is incorrect, it's still incorrect. I can talk all day about what a threat a certain person is, but if you decide to take action against that person, I'm not responsible.

Cycloptichorn
I saw your last line... but by now you at least should know better. I repeat; there can be no doubt that Bush&Co were the driving force behind the war, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. That doesn't mean he alone believed Saddam a threat. (My fingers are getting DeJavue here... I think we understand each other just fine...
Later
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 03:00 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:


You didn't read the last line of my post.

Quote:

You can understand that after hearing these intellectually unsound arguments over and over from Republicans, people tend to jump the gun a bit when they hear it from someone who claims not to be. It's the reverse of what you are experiencing in the immigration thread from the other side.


They are intellectually unsound arguments. The Dems carry some blame for the start of the Iraq war, but only about half of them voted for it and it was Republicans driving the whoooole time.

I don't care who is making the point which is incorrect, it's still incorrect. I can talk all day about what a threat a certain person is, but if you decide to take action against that person, I'm not responsible.

Cycloptichorn
I saw your last line... but by now you at least should know better. I repeat; there can be no doubt that Bush&Co were the driving force behind the war, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. That doesn't mean he alone believed Saddam a threat. (My fingers are getting DeJavue here... I think we understand each other just fine...
Later

That also doesn't mean that those who believed it yet were not privy to all the intel were lying, either.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 03:38 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
That also doesn't mean that those who believed it yet were not privy to all the intel were lying, either.
The risk of having a senile idiot not get it AGAIN, is too great, so this time I'll answer directly: Bush's lies had no effect on Clinton or Pelosi's beliefs in 1998. Look at the dates on the list the new fella presented; and abandon that line of reasoning... because it simply doesn't explain all of the agreement about Iraq. Further; NO ONE, INCLUDING BUSH could be terribly well informed, since Bush's predecessor allowed Saddam to go unchecked for years, contrary to his obligations. Enough. I'm not doing this again.
Good day.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:03 pm
Bill wrote:
You really have no clue. IF anyone is trying to blame shift; they are an idiot. However; that doesn't mean Bush was alone in thinking Iraq was a threat, as illustrated by Cjhsa's video and that new fella's extensive list of quotes.


As Cyclo said, thinking and talking about doin' it ain't the same as doin' it; and the GOP has actively begun a propaganda war blurring the issues to avoid blame.

But you disagree?

A case in point was the Buskevik method of lumping together as weapons of mass destruction chemical weapons with atomic bombs, so any old cache of a 15 year old shell of half rotten out tear gas could be pronounced as "A clear example of Saddam concealing WMDs," presented breathlessly by a government spokesperson as if Saddam had a score of MIRVed nuclear missiles tucked under his hat.

Similar things are not the same as same things (that was my reference to you about NULL A), and Bill, you have the unenviable habit of diving right in and trying to make them so. Your peculiar habit of "rounding-off" the particular context within which pertinent details ought to be accessed is absolutely fearsome. On the surface you don't seem to be too stupid, apparently you seem to be an average-type guy, but you have shown a strong reservation to delve into anything but mere surface analysis, in other words you seem to lack a sense of depth and imagination in intellectual pursuit.

Funny, that's what I hoped would be stimulated when I turned you on to Go, a sense for subtle depths.

Its not our fault, Dookie, Cyclo, and I recognize clearly and protest the manipulation and poisoning of language and history for venial reasons.

Its your fault that you don't.

.......and until you do, remain Judy to my Punch.

http://www.magicmartin.co.uk/punch.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:09 pm
Quote:


Its not our fault, Dookie, Cyclo, and I recognize clearly and protest the manipulation and poisoning of language and history for venial reasons.

Its your fault that you don't.


I have always tried to remind myself that the people who bought into the bullsh*t must be deeply, deeply ashamed of their errors, and have a real tough time admitting just how wrong they were. It is damaging to their psyche to do so.

What was the objective difference between those who believed the hype, and those who did not? It doesn't seem to be intelligence, as many very intelligent people were deceived. No, I think it was emotional. They got caught up in the emotional arguments of the time and the hype the 9/11 was a deadly attack on our nation. Now they desperately try to defend their mistakes by pointing out that others are equally guilty.

It's the ultimate 'Clinton did it too!' argument. The last defense of a failed position.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:33 pm
Laughing Your manner of writing betrays an intelligence you no longer seem to choose to wield, for whatever reason, and I don't care. Go was just interesting enough to reawaken my love of Chess. I thank you for the suggestion; but I cannot agree it is the better game. As I improved; I found it increasingly annoying that each level I conquered was identical to the one the preceded it in that those higher were near impossible to defeat, and any step below was equally near impossible not to. In Chess; when I'm fortunate enough to find a better game than my own; my own skill jumps in leaps and bounds, and I've found that even those several steps in front of me have weaknesses that can be found and exploited, all the while learning as my opponent learns to close those gaps. Chess continues to fascinate me in that my unorthodoxy from being self taught and that serves me well, evolves more and more into strategies that more closely resemble the recognized, ageless strategies that are taught... or so I'm told. I don't see how you could have traded it in, unless you ran out of quality opponents.

Anyway, you've likely taught me your last lesson above, when you chose not to admit your error, rather preferring to attempt to mask it well enough for some idiot to accept (don't know or care who)... knowing damn well you and I both know the truth. Not cool Kuvasz. Not cool.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


Its not our fault, Dookie, Cyclo, and I recognize clearly and protest the manipulation and poisoning of language and history for venial reasons.

Its your fault that you don't.


I have always tried to remind myself that the people who bought into the bullsh*t must be deeply, deeply ashamed of their errors, and have a real tough time admitting just how wrong they were. It is damaging to their psyche to do so.

What was the objective difference between those who believed the hype, and those who did not? It doesn't seem to be intelligence, as many very intelligent people were deceived. No, I think it was emotional. They got caught up in the emotional arguments of the time and the hype the 9/11 was a deadly attack on our nation. Now they desperately try to defend their mistakes by pointing out that others are equally guilty.

It's the ultimate 'Clinton did it too!' argument. The last defense of a failed position.

Cycloptichorn
Not true. Clinton actually failed to take care of it in any meaningful way. In as much as things are obviously going horribly; they obviously would have then too. But that doesn't excuse the blind eye he turned in allowing Saddam to operate unchecked. As any chance of a net good in Iraq continues to lessen with the passing days; I do not believe even failure to bring about turn towards self determination in the ME will prove the attempt not warranted. There's been nothing knew to for us to go over, and I know both of your positions as well as you know mine, so I see no point in repeating the exercise now. Be patient. Iran/USA relations may soon bring us something new to argue about. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:40 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Dookiestix wrote:
That also doesn't mean that those who believed it yet were not privy to all the intel were lying, either.
The risk of having a senile idiot not get it AGAIN, is too great, so this time I'll answer directly: Bush's lies had no effect on Clinton or Pelosi's beliefs in 1998. Look at the dates on the list the new fella presented; and abandon that line of reasoning... because it simply doesn't explain all of the agreement about Iraq. Further; NO ONE, INCLUDING BUSH could be terribly well informed, since Bush's predecessor allowed Saddam to go unchecked for years, contrary to his obligations. Enough. I'm not doing this again.
Good day.

You should know about senility. How could something that Bush lied about effect what Clinton or Pelosi believed or did before he was even President?

And now you're blaming Clinton. How transparent. You once again are proving my point. And even though you think it idiotic to shift blame, it's exactly what you're doing right now. Laughing

After Clinton's 8 years, when Bush stupidly invaded Iraq, how many WMDs did we find?

If Clinton allowed Saddam to go "unchecked," how IS it that we came up with NOTHING? How is it that we discovered his weapons program completely dismantled. No nuclear program. Nada. Just some old mustard gas buried from sometime after the FIRST Gulf War, whose effectiveness basically equated to a bad headache.

How sad you feel compelled to resort to name calling. It effectively undermines whatever the hell you're trying to prove here, which ain't much at this point.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I have always tried to remind myself that the people who bought into the bullsh*t must be deeply, deeply ashamed of their errors, and have a real tough time admitting just how wrong they were. It is damaging to their psyche to do so.

I couldn't agree more. Did you protest on that big day before Bush invaded in Berkeley, or did you come over and do it with the thousands of us here on Market street in S.F.? I had my sign; Asses of Evil: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, with a drawing of a red ass with horns and oil coming out of it. Pretty much spoke to why we're there to begin with.

We called it exactly like it is transpiring today. We knew how destabilizing Iraq would be if we invaded. We knew that Bush's daddy, Scowcroft, and just about every level-headed expert strongly predicted dire warnings if we invaded. We knew it was about oil. And so do they in the Middle East. We know, and knew then, that it isn't about them hating our freedoms. When Ron Paul recently mentioned the "blowback" scenario he so eloquently spoke of, me and my liberal friends couldn't believe that he got away with saying that, despite the crickets in the audience. It was so true. And then Giuliani chimed right in with the typical, Rovian talking points. And, in a nutshell, it was all very clear how profound and pervasive the political angle has been regarding Bush's Middle Eastern policies. This is probably the most criminal, horrific administration in modern memory, and what they have done, not only to our own country but to the world, is beyond sickening. And yet there are still those who make excuses; who look for ways to spread the blame around. Why? Because if this falls squarely on the GOP, then they are toast. History. Corporate America, run by mostly conservative institutions, are trying their hardest to shape public opinion around Bush's policies. It worked brilliantly in the past, but not so much now. But I'm afraid that America will have to face much more dire consequences before the braindead finally wake up to our national/international nightmare.

Even now, Bush is shoving his propoganda down our throats with his latest "declassifed" information just before his speech to the Coast Guard today. Gee, what a coincidence. They are ALL amazing coincidences, aren't they? Pretty much like clockwork. And now so highly predictable.

Desparation can become extremely ugly, especially when the rhetoric resorts to name calling. Like a wounded animal, OCOMM BILL continues to lick his wounds while sounding more delusional with each and every BS conservative excuse.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:45 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


Its not our fault, Dookie, Cyclo, and I recognize clearly and protest the manipulation and poisoning of language and history for venial reasons.

Its your fault that you don't.


I have always tried to remind myself that the people who bought into the bullsh*t must be deeply, deeply ashamed of their errors, and have a real tough time admitting just how wrong they were. It is damaging to their psyche to do so.

What was the objective difference between those who believed the hype, and those who did not? It doesn't seem to be intelligence, as many very intelligent people were deceived. No, I think it was emotional. They got caught up in the emotional arguments of the time and the hype the 9/11 was a deadly attack on our nation. Now they desperately try to defend their mistakes by pointing out that others are equally guilty.

It's the ultimate 'Clinton did it too!' argument. The last defense of a failed position.

Cycloptichorn
Not true. Clinton actually failed to take care of it in any meaningful way. In as much as things are obviously going horribly; they obviously would have then too. But that doesn't excuse the blind eye he turned in allowing Saddam to operate unchecked. As any chance of a net good in Iraq continues to lessen with the passing days; I do not believe even failure to bring about turn towards self determination in the ME will prove the attempt not warranted. There's been nothing knew to for us to go over, and I know both of your positions as well as you know mine, so I see no point in repeating the exercise now. Be patient. Iran/USA relations may soon bring us something new to argue about. :wink:

How many WMDs did we find if Clinton failed?

Jesus, are you that delusional?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:46 pm
Here we see evidence that senility and idiocy have nothing in common... and a stark reminder of why I long ago chose to ignore a certain someone, long before he crawled back out from under his rock.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 05:23 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


Its not our fault, Dookie, Cyclo, and I recognize clearly and protest the manipulation and poisoning of language and history for venial reasons.

Its your fault that you don't.


I have always tried to remind myself that the people who bought into the bullsh*t must be deeply, deeply ashamed of their errors, and have a real tough time admitting just how wrong they were. It is damaging to their psyche to do so.

What was the objective difference between those who believed the hype, and those who did not? It doesn't seem to be intelligence, as many very intelligent people were deceived. No, I think it was emotional. They got caught up in the emotional arguments of the time and the hype the 9/11 was a deadly attack on our nation. Now they desperately try to defend their mistakes by pointing out that others are equally guilty.

It's the ultimate 'Clinton did it too!' argument. The last defense of a failed position.

Cycloptichorn
Not true. Clinton actually failed to take care of it in any meaningful way. In as much as things are obviously going horribly; they obviously would have then too. But that doesn't excuse the blind eye he turned in allowing Saddam to operate unchecked. As any chance of a net good in Iraq continues to lessen with the passing days; I do not believe even failure to bring about turn towards self determination in the ME will prove the attempt not warranted. There's been nothing knew to for us to go over, and I know both of your positions as well as you know mine, so I see no point in repeating the exercise now. Be patient. Iran/USA relations may soon bring us something new to argue about. :wink:


There wasn't anything to take care of. But you're right, we shouldn't argue about that.

I think that if we keep pushing for a war with Iran by using covert ops to try and destabilize and/or provoke them into one, then yes, we will see war. But it isn't fair to say that they are acting as an aggressor at this time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 07:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
There wasn't anything to take care of. But you're right, we shouldn't argue about that.

I think that if we keep pushing for a war with Iran by using covert ops to try and destabilize and/or provoke them into one, then yes, we will see war. But it isn't fair to say that they are acting as an aggressor at this time.

Cycloptichorn
Kidnapping an American/Iranian for nothing isn't aggressive? They had better watch their step; or I'm going to have to buy JoeNation dinner. Meanwhile, aren't we training a fleet near there? Ahmadinejad is roughly as popular as Bush. I'd say it was time to green light the Mossad but who knows how much worse the nutty Mullahs would be without him. Interesting times. Allow yourself to think for just a moment that the Mullahs and Ahmadinutjob were replaced by Miriam Rajavi. Now imagine the ME. Interesting thought, eh?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 10:11 pm
First of all, in the spirit of name-calling that has become the hallmark of the thread, I would just like to add that all of you are idiots.

Secondly, getting back to the GOP-financed video at the top of this thread, it is undeniable that many Democrats, prior to 2003, believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (although exactly what kind of WMDs may be an open question). The implicit message of the video, however, is to equate this belief with the policy of pre-emptive invasion. It is true that Bill Clinton, for instance, suspected that the Iraqis had WMDs in 1998. It is equally true, however, that he didn't launch a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq in 1998 based upon that suspicion.

Those who believed that Iraq possessed WMDs in the years leading up to the invasion are guilty, if anything, of bad judgment. Those who advocated invading Iraq because of the belief that Iraq possessed WMDs are, on the other hand, guilty of something far worse. To equate the two -- as I believe this video implies -- is to engage in a serious distortion.

I would also note that those in congress who voted in favor of the resolution authorizing the invasion are all complicit in the crime that was perpetrated by the Bush administration. That some, such as John Edwards, have publicly repudiated that vote partially -- but only partially -- absolves them of that complicity.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 10:26 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
It is true that Bill Clinton, for instance, suspected that the Iraqis had WMDs in 1998. It is equally true, however, that he didn't launch a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq in 1998 based upon that suspicion.
A decision that's been hotly debated ever since. It is also true that no one could have a high degree of certainty, one way or another, in part because Bill Clinton essentially allowed Iraq to go unchecked for years, contrary to his obligations. From a legal standpoint; how does one's repudiation, public or otherwise, absolve him of complicity, in any way?
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 10:35 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
It is true that Bill Clinton, for instance, suspected that the Iraqis had WMDs in 1998. It is equally true, however, that he didn't launch a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq in 1998 based upon that suspicion.
A decision that's been hotly debated ever since.

Really? By whom? I don't see a lot of people (or, to put it more accurately, a lot of sane people) criticizing Clinton for failing to make the same mistake in 1998 that Bush made in 2003.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
It is also true that no one could have a high degree of certainty, one way or another, in part because Bill Clinton essentially allowed Iraq to go unchecked for years, contrary to his obligations. From a legal standpoint; how does one's repudiation, public or otherwise, absolve him of complicity, in any way?

Bill Clinton is not complicit in the same way that, for instance, Hillary Clinton is for the very simple reason that he never authorized or voted for a pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. Whether he did or did not do his job regarding inspections is a worthwhile discussion topic, but it's not a topic that has a lot of relevance to this thread, which, after all, is focused on two main points: (1) the GOP video regarding the pre-war statements made by Democrats regarding WMDs, and (2) calling each other names.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 10:38 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Here we see evidence that senility and idiocy have nothing in common... and a stark reminder of why I long ago chose to ignore a certain someone, long before he crawled back out from under his rock.

Yet you now endlessly attempt to blur the lines. Funny how you claim to ignore me, yet respond nonetheless.

God, this is hysterical. Keep shifting the blame you yourself consider idiotic.

Hypocrisy reigns supreme in your world.

Laughing
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