Should we be involved?

Foxfyre wrote:

Yeah, well tell that to the thousands of guys who have been killed by those 'kindergarteners' and/or the tens of thousands who have been wounded by them.

Also talk to the many tens of thousands of people with relatives in the mass graves at the order of Saddam and his thugs, to the people who had been tortured, raped, and worse and no longer live in fear of that, to the many tens of thousands who now vote and who can go about their lives relatively free of fear or interference, to the people with electricity and running water for the first time in a long time, to the kids in the outlying areas who have usable schools for the first time ever.

Are there still huge problems to solve? Of course there are. It took nine years from the Revolution to create a democratic republic in the United States--longer than that in Germany and Japan. Will it be worth it in Iraq to accomplish that? I believe it will. It wasn't why we went in the first place, but it is now the mission and we should see it through.

I'm not one to give up so easily as some of you are.

What BS

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Also talk to the many tens of thousands of people with relatives in the mass graves at the order of Saddam and his thugs

Can't talk to a lot of them, as they are in new mass graves dug by one side of the new conflict.

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to the people who had been tortured, raped, and worse and no longer live in fear of that

This does not exist. Every Iraqi today still fears being tortured, raped, and worse, due to the ongoing conflict - which knows no boundaries.

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to the many tens of thousands who now vote

Vote on what? They haven't held elections in quite a while, in case you haven't been paying attention. Far longer than promised, in fact.

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and who can go about their lives relatively free of fear or interference

Which section of Iraq are you referring to, where people live free of fear or interference?

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to the people with electricity and running water for the first time in a long time, to the kids in the outlying areas who have usable schools for the first time ever.

Both of these are flat-out lies. There is a significant degradation in the amount of power, water, food, and gasoline available to citizens, compared to either Saddam or to the earlier post-war years. Ridiculous

You are so full of it, facts don't even matter any longer, do they?

Cycloptichorn

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cyclo, im beginning to doubt fact is even a legit word.

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Facts are pretty easy to come by for those who are willing to look for them. Those who go to the Daily Kos as their primary news source won't find a whole lot of them though.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Facts are pretty easy to come by for those who are willing to look for them. Those who go to the Daily Kos as their primary news source won't find a whole lot of them though.

Pat answer for someone who can't provide evidence for her claims, Fox. You know better than to pull sh*t like this. You are completely false and cannot support your pollyanish view of Iraq.

Your shallow attempt at character assassination falls flat as well; DailyKos is an opinion and advocacy site, not a news source. Not that this discussion is without a certain amount of irony, with the accusations coming from one who links to every disreputable Right-wing site on the net Laughing

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre wrote:

Facts are pretty easy to come by for those who are willing to look for them. Those who go to the Daily Kos as their primary news source won't find a whole lot of them though.

The same applies to those who rely on organizations such as CNS News for their "facts."

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Here's some more sources with some facts. These are just the first ones I pulled up. There are lots and lots more:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjI0NmZhMGVmZjJjOWE2OWNmOTgyNzNiMGEzNjNjM2E=

http://www.mediaresearch.org/SpecialReports/2005/sum/sum101405.asp

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007042

http://www.reason.com/news/show/36211.html

http://www.centcom.mil/sites/uscentcom1/Iraq%20Reconstruction%20Weekly/20060316%20Weekly%20Iraq%20Reconstruction%20Update.pdf

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/iraqs_accomplishments_in_persp.html

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/ofda.html

http://www.cipe.org/regional/mena/iraq/pdf/Iraq_insert_jan07.pdf

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2007/04/good-news-from-iraq-mixed-bag-of-treats.html

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How many times are you going to put a term into a search engine, and then post the results without reading what the hell the links are?!!?"!

Either you didn't look at some of those links, at all, or you are so ignorant as to believe they are germane to the topic.

Laughably ignorant

Cycloptichorn

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ms. dtom and i get most of our news from baghdad through an iraqi friend who still has family in baghdad.

well, actually, they aren't in baghdad anymore. a month or so ago it got bad enough that they finally pulled up stakes, left their homes, business and got themselves into syria.

syria, of course, in an ever shining display of arab solidarity is gouging the living camel poop out of the iraqi refugees.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

ms. dtom and i get most of our news from baghdad through an iraqi friend who still has family in baghdad.

well, actually, they aren't in baghdad anymore. a month or so ago it got bad enough that they finally pulled up stakes, left their homes, business and got themselves into syria.

syria, of course, in an ever shining display of arab solidarity is gouging the living camel poop out of the iraqi refugees.

There are neighborhoods in Baghdad and a few other places in Iraq that are still true war zones but the so-called 'surge' is making some progress there. If I had kids, I would get them out of a war zone too. I know a couple of the guys in the combat zone but most of my friends and relatives who are over there are working in areas outside of Baghdad and they report that life is peaceful and improving where they are and the people are largely unaffected by the war zones in much the same way as New Mexico or Kansas or Oklahoma were unaffected by the Watts riots or hurricanes in Florida et al other than caring about the people suffering through that. It looks horrendous on the evening news, but the sun shines and the dogs bark and children play normally elsewhere.

The MSM is giving us mostly those horrendous scenes and for whatever reason doesn't want to show the new schools and power plants and water purification systems etc. that are being accomplished there.

There were times in WWII that we suffered such horrendous losses and/or things went so badly that everything looked really bleak. There were months that setbacks so outweighed the successes that victory seemed light years away. Was it worth it? Again looking at all the benefits that came out of the Allied victory in that war, yes, absolutely.

Will there be benefits to make a victory in Iraq worth it? I don't know. But I think victory will yield far better results than turning tail and running will accomplish.

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Bush has given a succession of reasons (other than the true ones: oil and political capital) for going into Iraq. Among them is the goal of bringing democracy to Iraq and the rest of the ME. What he brought to Iraq instead is chaos, destruction, death, and civil war. Relative to the rest of the ME, he has given democracy a bad name.

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i constantly challenge you bloodlusting mouth breathers to define victory but no one seems able to.

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You will get an answer. But it changes by the day.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

i constantly challenge you bloodlusting mouth breathers to define victory but no one seems able to.

Victory is defined this way.

Smashing your enemy,destroying their will to fight,destroying their supplies,their lines of communications,their safe houses,and anything else they might be able to use.

Victory means leaving behind a stable govt,able to take care of its people and able to defend itself,and hopefully friendly to the US.

Does that answer your question?

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it does, with your usual idiocy. having done everything to the country you name in the first paragraph you expect to leave the country with the goals you mention in the second paragraph obtained. Dee Dee Dee.

We will be changing the name of the country from Iraq to Stepford if this happens, right?

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

it does, with your usual idiocy. having done everything to the country you name in the first paragraph you expect to leave the country with the goals you mention in the second paragraph obtained. Dee Dee Dee.

We will be changing the name of the country from Iraq to Stepford if this happens, right?

If you dont like the answer,dont ask the question!

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what, because you answered the question I'm required to accept your answer? That tells a lot.

I think your answer sucks and is completely wrong. I'm expressing that.. You gonna come invade Raleigh? Pack a big lunch. Laughing

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

what, because you answered the question I'm required to accept your answer? That tells a lot.

I think your answer sucks and is completely wrong. I'm expressing that.. You gonna come invade Raleigh? Pack a big lunch.

You think my answer "sucks"?
Thats your right.

BUT,you asked for a definition of victory,so I gave you one.
If you dont like that answer,come up with one on your own.

As for invading Raleigh,no thanks.
That town is not worth the trouble.

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oh I'm sure we'd be no trouble for a red white and blue true patriotic god fearing american he man like you MM, but I do agree that invading would not be worth the trouble.

Too bad you idiots couldn't think that out concerning Iraq. Laughing

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

oh I'm sure we'd be no trouble for a red white and blue true patriotic god fearing american he man like you MM, but I do agree that invading would not be worth the trouble.

Too bad you idiots couldn't think that out concerning Iraq.

AFTER you have been to Iraq,then you can tell me what needs to be done or not done.

So far,you have sat on your ass and complained,with no idea of whats actually going on.

There are several airlines making daily flights into Baghdad,I will be happy to buy you a ticket if you want.

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why would I be stupid enough to go to Iraq for any reason?

I'm not a weatherman either, but I can look out the window and tell if it's raining.

Neither am I a proctologist but I know an..... oh never mind.... let's not get ugly Sgt. Fury.

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