1
   

Welder, Plumber, Sniperman, Thief

 
 
Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 10:34 am
Setanta wrote:
I guess i don't want to be the target of the righteous indignation when i'm not at fault for the situation being complained about, and it seemed you were beating up on me.

The questions which come to my mind are: Do we think about the probably consequences of wars before we engage in them? (To which the answer is complex, but, basically, if we haven't had an unpleasant experience of war recently, i'd say no, we don't think about the probable consequences; additionally, you get propaganda efforts such as the administration's touting "shock and awe" and alleging the Iraqis would strew flowers at the feet of our soldiers). And, what should be done about it. The latter is more problematic. Most Americans do not either question an administration who alleges a threat and calls for war (c.f. Goering's comment on the ease of leading the public to war); nor are they (the public) aware of situations such as that with the private contractors, and generally don't delve that deeply into public affairs. So how do you whip up enough interest that politicians are willing to react?

Also, i think that the assumption that employing private contractors makes it easier to go to war is not well-founded. They are not the ones who usually actively go into harm's way, so the loss of troops isn't altered or is altered very, very little, by the use of private contractors. To me, it is more interesting that these jokers are employed for security services--something the military ought always to do itself. And i question if private contractors are any longer used to save the government money. I suspect that although cost-savings may have been the original impetus (after all, we don't expect the military to raise the cattle and harvest the grain with which it feeds its members) and a good one, that it has now gotten out of hand. I suspect that, like defense equipment contracting, all the parties concerned, including politicians and retired military members, have a sweet deal, which they don't want nosey reporters and citizens to queer.

I suspect that a careful investigation of military contracting would probably reveal that the military could actually do a lot of these things much more cheaply than contractors. I have no doubt the Mr. Cheney really, really doesn't want anyone going over Halliburton's books with a fine-toothed comb.


With this I am in complete agreement. You said it much better than I could.

(Your apology is accepted Smile )
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2007 06:18 pm
The current issue of Esquire has a very interesting article on mercinaries and Blackwater. I haven't completed it yet but it sure starts off good.

Read it if you dare....

http://www.esquire.com/features/mercenary0607#story
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 12:39 pm
Iraq is truly becoming a killing field for Iraqis, us, and others. For the first quarter of this year, 146 contractors were killed.

In the meantime, Bush won't accept any timelines, even flexible ones. All he wants is to keep the war going another 1.5 years, when he can dump the mess in the lap of the new president.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/world/middleeast/19contractors.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 02:05 pm
And because the Democrats have no ball$ he is going to get away with it.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 03:13 pm
rabel22 wrote:
And because the Democrats have no ball$ he is going to get away with it.


What???? The Dems can't even pass a minimum wage bill, thanks to the Reps upholding vetoes. How in the hell can they solve the Bush thing?
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 07:08 pm
They can keep sending bills with timelines in it until the idiot gives in. Most people realize that Bush is the problem, not the democrats.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 May, 2007 03:15 pm
An interesting point has been advanced in this thread, that we should somehow be required to bloody our hands and, more, to shed our own blood if we are going to use war in our international relations.

First of all the long history of war reveals there has not been and is not a shortage of people willing to bloody their hands and willing to risk the spilling of their own. If personalized danger could ever have put an end to, or even significantly limited it, it would have happened long ago.

Secondly, what actually does hold the promise of putting an end to war is the possibility that one force could wage it without any sacrifice at all. That would be an unbeatable force and who would ever engage it?

Of course the world would be at the mercy of such a force, but there would be no more war. Isn't that what the pacifists want?
0 Replies
 
Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 May, 2007 05:06 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
An interesting point has been advanced in this thread, that we should somehow be required to bloody our hands and, more, to shed our own blood if we are going to use war in our international relations.

First of all the long history of war reveals there has not been and is not a shortage of people willing to bloody their hands and willing to risk the spilling of their own. If personalized danger could ever have put an end to, or even significantly limited it, it would have happened long ago.

Secondly, what actually does hold the promise of putting an end to war is the possibility that one force could wage it without any sacrifice at all. That would be an unbeatable force and who would ever engage it?

Of course the world would be at the mercy of such a force, but there would be no more war. Isn't that what the pacifists want?


I don't think that's the point at all, Finn. At least it's not my point. Part of the problem I'm having is putting it into words. boomerang's link hit it closer. The contractors are Americann, mostly I think, but we are not informed of their casualties as we are of the service members that are killed and wounded.

Dan Rather recently did a story about this on his TV program. The wounded contractors were explaining that they have health insurance through their emplyer that covers their injuries, but most policies do not cover things like post-traumatic stress disorder. US military personnel are treated for such maladies. If their insurance is like most working americans, it has caps on coverage as well. Their point is that they are in harms way in a war, but don't have the high cost of military medical coverage.

I'm just uneasy about the whole thing and would like to have more information about all of the ramifications of contracting out military services.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 11:55 am
What we are witnessing here if one were to sum all of this up is the outsourcing of our miliary through private contractors. There is MUCH more money to be made via the military industrial complex as opposed to being a soldier on the front lines. It is one of the prime reasons why we are in Iraq, and why the Bush doctrine is now one of pre-emptive invasions of countries that never posed a threat to us.

We will never leave Iraq, because we are now occupying a country with the second largest oil reserves in the world. We are FAR too dependent on foreign oil to consider leaving. We are already building many permanent military bases, and (as Ron Paul said in the last debates) building a U.S. embassy the size of the Vatican, with a price-tag of over half a billion dollars. We've handed out future contracts to American oil companies for control of the Iraqi oil, with very little left over for foreign companies/domestic industry.

We are essentially raping Iraq of it's oil, displacing millions of Iraqis, and making a buck with these private military contractors like Blackwater. It is a for-profit war; a corporate war. And we are geopolitically situating ourselves squarely in the heart of the Middle East so we can control that precious resource for ourselves.

War for oil, war for profit. This is what it's always been. This is the real mission.
0 Replies
 
reverend hellh0und
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 06:48 am
Dookiestix wrote:
What we are witnessing here if one were to sum all of this up is the outsourcing of our miliary through private contractors. There is MUCH more money to be made via the military industrial complex as opposed to being a soldier on the front lines. It is one of the prime reasons why we are in Iraq, and why the Bush doctrine is now one of pre-emptive invasions of countries that never posed a threat to us.

We will never leave Iraq, because we are now occupying a country with the second largest oil reserves in the world. We are FAR too dependent on foreign oil to consider leaving. We are already building many permanent military bases, and (as Ron Paul said in the last debates) building a U.S. embassy the size of the Vatican, with a price-tag of over half a billion dollars. We've handed out future contracts to American oil companies for control of the Iraqi oil, with very little left over for foreign companies/domestic industry.

We are essentially raping Iraq of it's oil, displacing millions of Iraqis, and making a buck with these private military contractors like Blackwater. It is a for-profit war; a corporate war. And we are geopolitically situating ourselves squarely in the heart of the Middle East so we can control that precious resource for ourselves.

War for oil, war for profit. This is what it's always been. This is the real mission.





What a bunch of left wing conspiracy crap! Laughing


Your ignorance is staggering!

1. Blackwater provides security services such as VIP protection. They are not engaged in offensive battlefield missions.


2. If we were after Iraqi oil we would have taken it. We havent.


3. Once again Dookie you imply that US soldiers are engaged in nefarious activities "Raping iraq of it oil and displacing its people"


Typical and pathetic.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:11 am
moron!
0 Replies
 
reverend hellh0und
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:17 am
Laughing
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 08:54 pm
Swimpy wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
An interesting point has been advanced in this thread, that we should somehow be required to bloody our hands and, more, to shed our own blood if we are going to use war in our international relations.

First of all the long history of war reveals there has not been and is not a shortage of people willing to bloody their hands and willing to risk the spilling of their own. If personalized danger could ever have put an end to, or even significantly limited it, it would have happened long ago.

Secondly, what actually does hold the promise of putting an end to war is the possibility that one force could wage it without any sacrifice at all. That would be an unbeatable force and who would ever engage it?

Of course the world would be at the mercy of such a force, but there would be no more war. Isn't that what the pacifists want?


I don't think that's the point at all, Finn. At least it's not my point. Part of the problem I'm having is putting it into words. boomerang's link hit it closer. The contractors are Americann, mostly I think, but we are not informed of their casualties as we are of the service members that are killed and wounded.

Dan Rather recently did a story about this on his TV program. The wounded contractors were explaining that they have health insurance through their emplyer that covers their injuries, but most policies do not cover things like post-traumatic stress disorder. US military personnel are treated for such maladies. If their insurance is like most working americans, it has caps on coverage as well. Their point is that they are in harms way in a war, but don't have the high cost of military medical coverage.

I'm just uneasy about the whole thing and would like to have more information about all of the ramifications of contracting out military services.


I'm trying to grasp what your point may be.

Independent contractors engaged in security activities are bodyguards, not mercenaries. If they are engaged in black ops then perhaps they are mercenaries or simply CIA operatives. In any case they do not seem to fit the traditional definition of mercenaries

They hardly represent a signifigant element of the US military response to Iraq.

OK, mercenaries make you feel uncomfortable. Chances are your belief is familiar with the gang chorus of My Little Pony.

War means one side dominates the other. How domination might be achieved is, pretty much, irrelevant.

The insipid scum that might argue that our millitary presence in Iraq is somehow a negative to the mainstream Iraqi is just that.

Cowards.
0 Replies
 
reverend hellh0und
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 06:30 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Swimpy wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
An interesting point has been advanced in this thread, that we should somehow be required to bloody our hands and, more, to shed our own blood if we are going to use war in our international relations.

First of all the long history of war reveals there has not been and is not a shortage of people willing to bloody their hands and willing to risk the spilling of their own. If personalized danger could ever have put an end to, or even significantly limited it, it would have happened long ago.

Secondly, what actually does hold the promise of putting an end to war is the possibility that one force could wage it without any sacrifice at all. That would be an unbeatable force and who would ever engage it?

Of course the world would be at the mercy of such a force, but there would be no more war. Isn't that what the pacifists want?


I don't think that's the point at all, Finn. At least it's not my point. Part of the problem I'm having is putting it into words. boomerang's link hit it closer. The contractors are Americann, mostly I think, but we are not informed of their casualties as we are of the service members that are killed and wounded.

Dan Rather recently did a story about this on his TV program. The wounded contractors were explaining that they have health insurance through their emplyer that covers their injuries, but most policies do not cover things like post-traumatic stress disorder. US military personnel are treated for such maladies. If their insurance is like most working americans, it has caps on coverage as well. Their point is that they are in harms way in a war, but don't have the high cost of military medical coverage.

I'm just uneasy about the whole thing and would like to have more information about all of the ramifications of contracting out military services.


I'm trying to grasp what your point may be.

Independent contractors engaged in security activities are bodyguards, not mercenaries. If they are engaged in black ops then perhaps they are mercenaries or simply CIA operatives. In any case they do not seem to fit the traditional definition of mercenaries

They hardly represent a signifigant element of the US military response to Iraq.

OK, mercenaries make you feel uncomfortable. Chances are your belief is familiar with the gang chorus of My Little Pony.

War means one side dominates the other. How domination might be achieved is, pretty much, irrelevant.

The insipid scum that might argue that our millitary presence in Iraq is somehow a negative to the mainstream Iraqi is just that.

Cowards.




excellent post!
0 Replies
 
Swimpy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 07:47 am
You keep insisting that I am a pacifist with some point of view on mercenaries. Fine, believe what you will. ALL I'm saying is let's get all of this contractor sh!t out in the open so we can analyze it. We are paying a premium, it seems, for contractors to do jobs that the military used to do exclusively. What are the upsides? What are the downsides? Where is the accountability? Why is there so little information? THAT's what makes me uneasy.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 06:57 pm
Swimpy wrote:
You keep insisting that I am a pacifist with some point of view on mercenaries. Fine, believe what you will. ALL I'm saying is let's get all of this contractor sh!t out in the open so we can analyze it. We are paying a premium, it seems, for contractors to do jobs that the military used to do exclusively. What are the upsides? What are the downsides? Where is the accountability? Why is there so little information? THAT's what makes me uneasy.


I'm not insisting you are anything. I am trying to determine what your point is.

If it is nothing more than advocacy for transparency re: independent contractors in Iraq fine. A bit boring and unnecessary but there are heralds of all points of view.

The thing is that it is not all that opaque. They are there, we know they are. We know that they are not involved in direct military operations unless it is as Black Ops agents, and if they are involved in clandestine ops, we don't need to know to what extent.

If we the people get to vote on everything that our government does there will be, undoubtedly, major snafus. If the government gets to do things we don't know about there will, undoubtedly, be major snafus.

It comes down to whether you think the electorate versus a small group of, arguably, experts can make faster and better decisions.

I trust the electorate to determine the broad and long term direction of the nation. I do not trust them toi make battlefield decisions.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 07:04 pm
dyslexia wrote:
moron!


Pathetic old dilletante!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 01:25 am
Blackwater employees were involved in two shooting incidents in past week:

U.S. Security Contractors Open Fire in Baghdad
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 03:24 pm
Walter
Surly you aren't saying that U.S. forces shouldn't defend themselves if attacked. The iraq forces seem to attack whenever they want and kill anyone one they want both U.S. and iraqi with impunity. Some innocents are going to be killed but I would like to bet that the insurgent forces have killed many more iraq people than the U.S. forces. This is the main reason I think we should pull out of Iraq. Bush has put us in a lose, lose situation. These people have been killing each other for more than 1200 years. Let Iran go in there. Let them tie down their army.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2007 07:19 am
rabel22 wrote:
Sur[e]ly you aren't saying that U.S. forces shouldn't defend themselves if attacked.


Blackwater employees are not "U.S. forces," they are privately employed contractors.
0 Replies
 
 

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