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Buddhists...what have they ever done for us?

 
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 10:23 pm
Wilso wrote:
Dys has many buddies, and Set is 100% correct. Besides which, no other views could possibly penetrate the brick wall of delusion you have erected around yourself. But take heart, because these days there's medication that can cure it.


Well you can bow down to worship Dys' "buddies" with him...

Another worthless response.

I have no "buddies" when it comes to God's word.

If you want to penetrate my logic try using logic instead of insult.

I am not here to win a popularity contest. I have a sense of humor like the next guy but I also don't like to waste my time on frivolous jest that simply covers up the "real issues". I am well aware of Set and Dys' insulting rhetoric and spam. If it doesn't let up soon I will report them to a moderator "again"...

Don't ask a question if you don't like the answers.

You might not like it that I am on the outside banging on your own "wall"...
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 10:59 pm
You don't know what logic is. Provide one piece of logical evidence that god exists. I challenge you Rex. One single, tangible piece of evidence. Of course I know what the outcome will be already. You'll fall on the tired old pathetic theists copout of "prove he doesn't". And you'll do that because you're a loser.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2007 11:07 pm
Wilso wrote:
You don't know what logic is. Provide one piece of logical evidence that god exists. I challenge you Rex. One single, tangible piece of evidence. Of course I know what the outcome will be already. You'll fall on the tired old pathetic theists copout of "prove he doesn't". And you'll do that because you're a loser.


Ok, one piece, logically?

Without creation NOTHING exists...
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 12:15 am
Like I said. Medication will fix that.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 12:17 am
That ain't evidence pal. That's the normal circular delusions you lot constantly spew out.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 08:43 am
Wilso wrote:
That ain't evidence pal. That's the normal circular delusions you lot constantly spew out.


So are you saying that we don't exist?

You have dodged the question, so much for your OWN logic.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 09:08 am
Actually Rex, that IS a pretty fair description of the Buddhist view on existence. Proving one's existence is as difficult as proving the existence of an Abrahamic-like god. Desarte's proof of his existence, I believe falls short, for the "thought" may not be ours, but Ultimate Reality.

The very notions of Creation and the End of Time are finite concepts. Buddhism, on the other hand like many other Asian religions prefers thinking of the Universe as infinite; without beginning or ending. Finite concepts fit within the larger and more inclusive concept of infinity. That, it seems to me, would make the Abrahamic concepts distinctly inferior to the Buddhist position.

There is NO objective evidence for either of the two concepts.

Using your own religious writings is no better than if I constantly argued my position from Buddhist suttras. Both are fallible. If you don't think so, then please explain the many contradictions in the Old and New Testiments. How is it that many biblical events are physical impossibilities?
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 09:24 am
Asherman wrote:
Actually Rex, that IS a pretty fair description of the Buddhist view on existence. Proving one's existence is as difficult as proving the existence of an Abrahamic-like god. Desarte's proof of his existence, I believe falls short, for the "thought" may not be ours, but Ultimate Reality.

The very notions of Creation and the End of Time are finite concepts. Buddhism, on the other hand like many other Asian religions prefers thinking of the Universe as infinite; without beginning or ending. Finite concepts fit within the larger and more inclusive concept of infinity. That, it seems to me, would make the Abrahamic concepts distinctly inferior to the Buddhist position.

There is NO objective evidence for either of the two concepts.

Using your own religious writings is no better than if I constantly argued my position from Buddhist suttras. Both are fallible. If you don't think so, then please explain the many contradictions in the Old and New Testiments. How is it that many biblical events are physical impossibilities?


Even if the universe were infinite, Buddhism, as you see is, does not explain what made existence happen.

I see two states existence and no existence .

Something obviously coded existence.

For to argue that we don't exist I would suggest one to try some of the medications Dys and his buddies are on...
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 09:30 am
RexRed wrote:
Asherman wrote:
Actually Rex, that IS a pretty fair description of the Buddhist view on existence. Proving one's existence is as difficult as proving the existence of an Abrahamic-like god. Desarte's proof of his existence, I believe falls short, for the "thought" may not be ours, but Ultimate Reality.

The very notions of Creation and the End of Time are finite concepts. Buddhism, on the other hand like many other Asian religions prefers thinking of the Universe as infinite; without beginning or ending. Finite concepts fit within the larger and more inclusive concept of infinity. That, it seems to me, would make the Abrahamic concepts distinctly inferior to the Buddhist position.

There is NO objective evidence for either of the two concepts.

Using your own religious writings is no better than if I constantly argued my position from Buddhist suttras. Both are fallible. If you don't think so, then please explain the many contradictions in the Old and New Testiments. How is it that many biblical events are physical impossibilities?


Even if the universe were infinite, Buddhism, as you see is, does not explain what made existence happen.

I see two states existence and no existence .

Something obviously coded existence.

For to argue that we don't exist I would suggest one to try some of the medications Dys and his buddies are on...
The ultimate fallacy of dualism for which we can thank plato/aristotle.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 09:35 am
Well said Asherman,

Analysis of the concept of "existence" tends to be avoided especially by those with a vested interest in some version of "reality". This vested interest is essence an expression of their attachment to "self" as an "actor with will". The simple observation that most of life appears to get by without "self awareness" should be sufficient grounds to seriously question the significance of "self" in homo sapiens.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 10:08 am
fresco wrote:
Well said Asherman,

Analysis of the concept of "existence" tends to be avoided especially by those with a vested interest in some version of "reality". This vested interest is essence an expression of their attachment to "self" as an "actor with will". The simple observation that most of life appears to get by without "self awareness" should be sufficient grounds to seriously question the significance of "self" in homo sapiens.


So are you saying we don't exist or that we should just ignore that fact? (Just as many ignore God and his reality?)
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 10:12 am
Re: Buddhists...what have they ever done for us?
Eorl wrote:
OK, I'm being facetious (ala Monty Python) but what I'm trying to ask is....is the philosophy one that limits human endeavour, especially long-term, group-centric goals. Could Buddhists have had a "space-race"? If one is not desperately trying to achieve something, and one is busy just being happy meditating a lot, how much external productivity can one expect of the culture?

I imagine the answer to this is on page 1 of the Dalai Lama's FAQ, but I wanted to know what you guys think.


Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 10:30 am
Asherman I consider Buddhism as like counting without understanding the concept of zero. To begin with existence without any understanding of nonexistence.

I call that method of numerical evolution containing the non value of zero greater then a belief system without the concept of "zero".

So to label the Abrahamic logic inferior because it contains the concept of zero is I believe mathematically shortsighted and simply errant.

In the beginning God created...

This is zero moving to the value of one...

Sounds logical to me...
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 10:47 am
RexRed wrote
Quote:
So are you saying we don't exist or that we should just ignore that fact?


No I am saying that "existence" always involves relationship between concepts. The concept of "self" MUST evoke the concept of "others". For you, one of those "significant others" is "a deity". The transcendent position of which Buddhism is one example, is to recognize the mutuality of "existence" and consequently the illusion of separate entitities resulting from linguistic constructs which artificially segment "reality". Such segmentation is useful for the purposes of everyday living but has no more applicability in explaining "reality" than the concept of different suits of playing cards do. The assignment of "thingness" to aspects of reality is purely functional for local "life games" played by homo sapiens.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2007 11:37 am
Very good, Fresco, very good indeed.
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 10:22 am
fresco wrote:
RexRed wrote
Quote:
So are you saying we don't exist or that we should just ignore that fact?


No I am saying that "existence" always involves relationship between concepts. The concept of "self" MUST evoke the concept of "others". For you, one of those "significant others" is "a deity". The transcendent position of which Buddhism is one example, is to recognize the mutuality of "existence" and consequently the illusion of separate entitities resulting from linguistic constructs which artificially segment "reality". Such segmentation is useful for the purposes of everyday living but has no more applicability in explaining "reality" than the concept of different suits of playing cards do. The assignment of "thingness" to aspects of reality is purely functional for local "life games" played by homo sapiens.


Why are we given the ability to perceive God if we are not to worship him in the spirit of love? To close one's eyes to this already perceived deity is to instead glorify the self (or other "created" beings or objects) over the ideal of God.

Can't you see the self serving nature of that?

True we don't only exist but we are given spacial relationships to recognize our position and limited place in this "created" universe.

I would rather fall into the said trap of "thingness" than in the end to deny my creator for "selfness".
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RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 10:34 am
Asherman wrote:
Very good, Fresco, very good indeed.


I love ya Asherman but if I said, the Buddhists sky is most of the time blue." it seems you would disagree simply because I am a Christian.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 10:37 am
To acknowledge the creator is to acknowledge the self. In terms of dualism, god is the ultimate counterpart to self, and given our predisposition towards dualism, it was inevitable that such a concept would arise. It probably did so paralell to the idea of self.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 11:56 am
Asherman wrote:
Very good, Fresco, very good indeed.
yes he's a clever man. But there again Manchester produces some very good people; I might be the exception, but its my claim to fame.
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2007 12:24 pm
Rex, can't you see the self serving nature of your beliefs? I don't mean that in a nasty way at all. That said, there is no way of God that, at the least, doesn't involve the way of self, you have talked in this thread about your impregnable faith etc, you've talked of the spiritual learning you have undertaken over the years, the way of understanding the Bible, don't you see, this is all YOU, it's your interpretation, your upbringing and education, your belief. This "way of God" you speak of, in comparison to the "way of self" you seem to ascribe to Buddhism, it's non existent except as a collection of beliefs YOU are in relation to, that the SELF is in relationship with. Your "way of God" is just another variety of the "way of self". It's like the self wants something more than just mere material things, more than just SELF oriented things and uses SELF to create it, to create this non-self thing called the loving worship of God, non-self cannot come from self.

On top of that, meditation, being central to Buddhism, is about passive observation and self dissipation (just my impression, happy to be corrected by the more knowledgeable). It's about the relationship between the observer and the observed, there is no static self in Buddhism, for Buddhism to even be a "way of the self". What do you actually think meditation is or involves, do you think there is concentration? How about will? Or active discipline? When you talk of meditation as the way of the self, when you talk of Buddha taking the route of self in comparison with Jesus, you miss the point altogether, sadly it's a point that has been repeated again and again here but with every post made, you react instantly with your Christian armour, thinking good discussion will emerge by simply adding more and more opposing opinions into the pot. I think I've seen you talking of meditation in terms of the senses too, with the senses of course being attributed to the self. If meditation were about experiencing the senses you might have a point, I know I may have talked about meditation being experiential but in truth, I would say it is surely beyond this because experience is normally talked about in terms of experiencer and the experienced as static/absolute things, which re-enforces that observer-observed boundary.

I think it would be fascinating to see you, just for a while, consider the possibility that Christianity is NOT the "truth". Don't do this because I say so, or because you're reacting against something, don't see this as abandonment, see it instead as the start of some honest and open understanding of Buddhism. If not, how can you ever hope to appreciate some of the stuff these guys are saying to you without it first being channeled and misapprehended through your Christian tainted glasses. That's not meant as an attack on Christianity but you have to consider the context of this topic, when you mis-represent Buddhism, it's polite to take stock and re-consider.

Quote:
I would rather fall into the said trap of "thingness" than in the end to deny my creator for "selfness".


To fall into the trap of "thingness" when talking in such large scope as that of God or reality, is to mis-understand "selfness" completely. Just my opinions of course.
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